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#2090527 - 05/28/13 09:06 AM Estonia pianos?
Bos Primigenius Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 4
Hi, and I'm new here. I have heard that the price of Estonians are going up. Is that true? If it is, are there any other pianos with the same quality that costs less. Thanks.

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#2090534 - 05/28/13 09:22 AM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: Bos Primigenius]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10645
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Even if there were a price increase, the difference wouldn't be enough sway a purchase decision.

The quality of the instrument far outweighs the addition of a typical price increase. This is particularly true of Estonia, already considered one of the best values on the market today.
_________________________
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My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#2090543 - 05/28/13 09:38 AM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: Bos Primigenius]
joe80 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 2025
Well, the flip side of it is that now might be the time to take the plunge. If the cost is going up there will be some dealers with stock at the old prices.

Don't go for a lesser brand if you can afford an Estonia. The only others at that kind of price range are Yamaha and Kawai, and then you have to take a big step up in price and quality after that!

There is also W.Hoffmann and Petrof who are also very good.

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#2090557 - 05/28/13 10:05 AM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: Bos Primigenius]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Yamaha and Kawai are not in the same league as the Estonia.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2090568 - 05/28/13 10:27 AM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: Bos Primigenius]
ygm Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 7
Any idea when the prices are going up?

Thanks in advance.

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#2090672 - 05/28/13 12:59 PM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: ygm]
PianoWorksATL Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2956
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: Bos Primigenius
... are there any other pianos with the same quality that costs less?
No. The assumption that there is a close alternative is misplaced. Estonia would still be competitive at twice the price...just no longer by itself. There is really no one close in the price/quality equation which is one of the many reasons they have so many excited owners.

All manufacturers face price increases due to inflation of energy, materials & labor costs. In the past, manufacturers would tend to plan for inflation, but over our extended recession, most have had to respond to inflation with less predictable increases.

Estonia does well to manage costs, and the increases, while substantial, have generally been somewhat less than other makers. The only makers who have not experienced higher inflation are those that either partly or completely moved their production to a lower cost facility in SE Asia. By that standard, buying an Estonia IS still saving you money.
Originally Posted By: ygm
Any idea when the prices are going up?
Sadly, it is inevitable, but exactly when and how much is up to the management. I guess the message is that you should purchase sooner rather than later.
_________________________
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PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
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#2090876 - 05/28/13 07:42 PM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: Bos Primigenius]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14681
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
The price of Estonia is going up primarily because Steve Cohen ordered 2 containers for himself.

Good men can't keep a good thing from them when they know/see one...

Norbert laugh
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#2090885 - 05/28/13 08:06 PM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: Bos Primigenius]
sleepy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/06
Posts: 330
In the used piano market there are certainly pianos of the same (or better) quality at a comparable (or better) price.

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#2091183 - 05/29/13 07:40 AM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: Bos Primigenius]
joe80 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 2025
Yamaha and Kawai are not as good as Estonia but I meant they provide a quality piano at a decent price. The used market can give you good deals, but seek professional advice in person from a tech who can inspect the piano you are interested in.

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#2091902 - 05/30/13 02:51 AM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Yamaha and Kawai are not in the same league as the Estonia.


Really? I'd choose an SK2, or SK3 over an Estonia any day. Both made by Kawai, and both should be in the same price range according to reliable sources. The Yamaha S series may also be a deal to be had too.

I'd also choose a Charles Walter 190 over the Estonias as well.

I'd say that Estonia is a very nice piano, but definitely not in a league of its own. It has good, if not better, company.
_________________________
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#2091926 - 05/30/13 05:01 AM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: Bos Primigenius]
ClsscLib Online   content

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 2088
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
The Estonias I have played have varied from dealer to dealer. Prep is important with any piano.

The best Estonias I've played have been at Sam Bennett's shop in Atlanta. Those were fine instruments!
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#2092002 - 05/30/13 09:25 AM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: Bos Primigenius]
Bos Primigenius Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 4
By the way, are the Estonias worth it? They seem pretty expensive. Are they really that much better than yamahas or kawais.

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#2092011 - 05/30/13 09:43 AM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Yamaha and Kawai are not in the same league as the Estonia.


Really? I'd choose an SK2, or SK3 over an Estonia any day. Both made by Kawai, and both should be in the same price range according to reliable sources. The Yamaha S series may also be a deal to be had too.

I'd also choose a Charles Walter 190 over the Estonias as well.

I'd say that Estonia is a very nice piano, but definitely not in a league of its own. It has good, if not better, company.

The pianos you cite are also in a different league, the same as occupied by Estonia. The Shigerus are not in the same league as Kawai branded pianos. The same holds true for Walter. You are merely stating a preference for instruments within the same league. Comparing a Shigeru to a Kawai is similar to comparing a Steinway to a Boston.

The question is not why Estonia is more expensive than Kawai and Yamaha, but rather why is it such a value when compared to other very fine instruments.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2092055 - 05/30/13 11:03 AM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Almaviva Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 842
Loc: Richmond, Virginia
This post is meant to supplement what Minnesota Marty has already stated.

The Shigeru Kawai & Charles Walter pianos you cited are "in the same league" as comparably-sized Estonia models, but they are also more expensive according to "Piano Buyer".

The Yamaha S4 & S6 pianos have been phased out, and have been replaced by the CF4 & CF6 models. (You might still be able to find some new S models in showrooms, however.) Both of those pianos are significantly more expensive than Estonia models of the same size.

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#2092086 - 05/30/13 11:44 AM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: Bos Primigenius]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14681
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Anybody, especially a good pianist who ever tried an Estonia would notice the piano to be in a class totally of its own.

The make would never had has its stellar success if this were not the case.

It's not exactly a coincidence that Estonia, now in same tier of pianos as New York Steinway, is frequently being compared -and later 'preferred' - to Steinway.

This is not only because of being a completely handmade piano but also because the piano represents an age old Baltic culture where "singing" tones have been of great importance as part of their famous choires for long time.

Estonia happens to be one of the world's most musical nations, with song and choires, even their 'singing language' being part of the equation.

It's something unique and "organically grown" that cannot be quickly copied or even "understood" by others same as a Spanish Flamingo guitar which is hard to copy and has developed its very own special sound over time.

Many people including ourselves discovered this from early on in the very beginning, long before Dr.Laul later incorporated almost 500 detailed improvements to the piano.

It's something that's grown over long time and in its own right. Interestingly enough, Estonia itself never compares itself to others or deems itself "superior"

It is 100% European, hand-made piano totally within it's own rights.

Even the best German manufacturers I have spoken to acknowlege this fact and respected Estonia for what it is.

Price increase?

Ain't seen nothin' yet..

Norbert smile


Edited by Norbert (06/30/13 12:11 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#2092373 - 05/30/13 06:45 PM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: Bos Primigenius]
PianoWorksATL Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2956
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: Bos Primigenius
By the way, are the Estonias worth it?
This question is about your priorities, not Estonia's. Don't take this the wrong way, but Estonia is seeking customers that share their values that do not align with mass produced instruments. Mass produced instruments create opportunities for so many but they must have different strengths and inherent weaknesses. Learn about the identity of the instruments and think which is for you.
Originally Posted By: Bos Primigenius
They seem pretty expensive.
Compared to...? You can purchase many entry-level to upper middle instruments for far less that will play and last a pretty long time. Maybe a premium piano is not for you. To summarize the responses so far, compared to Estonia, you can spend more for similar or search for premium in the used market?
Originally Posted By: Bos Primigenius
Are they really that much better than yamahas or kawais.
At the things that the Estonia Piano Company values, Yes. How willing are you to learn what makes premium pianos more desirable than solid contenders like those you mention?
_________________________
Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta

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#2092482 - 05/30/13 09:52 PM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: Bos Primigenius]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14681
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
This question is about your priorities, not Estonia's. Don't take this the wrong way, but Estonia is seeking customers that share their values that do not align with mass produced instruments. Mass produced instruments create opportunities for so many but they must have different strengths and inherent weaknesses. Learn about the identity of the instruments and think which is for you.


Very true.

There are many good-excellent pianos on the market today not necessarily requiring to step up to premium quality.

In the case of Estonia, this often happens simply because of its incredible quality and [still] affordable price.

This was true for our very first customer 15 years ago as it was for our last one most recently.

This will be a piano on the up and up for quite a while yet..

Norbert smile


Edited by Norbert (06/30/13 12:14 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#2094959 - 06/03/13 11:20 PM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: Bos Primigenius]
hotcat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/16/13
Posts: 125
Originally Posted By: Bos Primigenius
are there any other pianos with the same quality that costs less.


I was in your position recently, and wondering the same thing. In terms of new pianos, I found that the Estonia L190 was the highest quality in my price range. Maybe nicer pianos could be found in the used market, but as just a regular consumer I felt uneasy about looking at used pianos.

On 3 occasions I played the Estonia L190 and the Yamaha C3X side by side. I had a clear preference for the Estonia. Although I should add that my Estonia only rose to its full potential once I removed the area rug from under it and placed it on bare hardwood floor.

The non-Shigeru Kawai pianos did absolutely nothing for me. I later played some Shigeru Kawais, which were very nice, and certainly had no complaints about them, but felt my Estonia is somehow more "alive" if that makes any sense. It really sings, even when my young children play it. It's a truly magical sound.

I also tried the Bostons and again had no real complaints, just a matter of preference for the Estonia.

Now what I did not try were the Schimmels or Petrofs because I could not find any. And a couple of used M & H and Steinways sounded nice but again I had a real fear of buying used.

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#2095080 - 06/04/13 05:48 AM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Rich Galassini Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 9797
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Yamaha and Kawai are not in the same league as the Estonia.


Really? I'd choose an SK2, or SK3 over an Estonia any day. Both made by Kawai, and both should be in the same price range according to reliable sources. The Yamaha S series may also be a deal to be had too.

I'd also choose a Charles Walter 190 over the Estonias as well.

I'd say that Estonia is a very nice piano, but definitely not in a league of its own. It has good, if not better, company.

The pianos you cite are also in a different league, the same as occupied by Estonia. The Shigerus are not in the same league as Kawai branded pianos. The same holds true for Walter. You are merely stating a preference for instruments within the same league. Comparing a Shigeru to a Kawai is similar to comparing a Steinway to a Boston.

The question is not why Estonia is more expensive than Kawai and Yamaha, but rather why is it such a value when compared to other very fine instruments.


Well said Marty.
_________________________
Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
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#2095198 - 06/04/13 11:33 AM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: Bos Primigenius]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14681
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
The question is not why Estonia is more expensive than Kawai and Yamaha, but rather why is it such a value when compared to other very fine instruments.


This is a question that has lingered for some 15 years now.

The most interesting question to me was always why someone spending about same money would opt for a piano of far less [musical] quality.

Of course the situation is not expected to last forever and when Estonia prices will be finally be going up with 2013 price increase just around corner, many will look back again in disbelief scratching their head...

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (06/30/13 12:22 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#2095355 - 06/04/13 03:10 PM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: Norbert]
Almaviva Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 842
Loc: Richmond, Virginia
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
The question is not why Estonia is more expensive than Kawai and Yamaha, but rather why is it such a value when compared to other very fine instruments.


This is a question that has lingered for over 15 years now.

While some have tried to give an answer, the more interesting answer would be why others at same or even less quality cost so much more.Norbert


Low labor costs in Estonia can't be the only reason Estonia is able to make & sell pianos that match or exceed the quality of pianos costing much more. Vogel and W. Hoffmann pianos are also made in Eastern European countries with low labor costs, and cost only slightly less than Estonia models, but are not in the same quality league as Estonias. Petrof, another Eastern European pianomaker, IS in the same league as Estonia, but Petrof pianos cost a bit more than Estonias.

So, Norbert, O esteemed pianistic sage of the North - How does Estonia do it?


Edited by Almaviva (06/04/13 03:13 PM)

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#2095395 - 06/04/13 03:53 PM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: Almaviva]
Nick Mauel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 801
Loc: Sarasota and Naples, FL
Originally Posted By: Almaviva
Low labor costs in Estonia can't be the only reason Estonia is able to make & sell pianos that match or exceed the quality of pianos costing much more. Vogel and W. Hoffmann pianos are also made in Eastern European countries with low labor costs, and cost only slightly less than Estonia models, but are not in the same quality league as Estonias. Petrof, another Eastern European pianomaker, IS in the same league as Estonia, but Petrof pianos cost a bit more than Estonias.

So, Norbert, O esteemed pianistic sage of the North - How does Estonia do it?


May I please try to answer this?

Besides labor cost, a major factor has to do with how the Estonia piano company is structured.

There are not layers upon layers of management, sales reps, etc.

When I need to call the factory I speak to only one person - Indrek Laul, the owner.

Another factor is that the Estonia piano factory is located in the port city of Tallinn. Unlike other European manufacturers, the pianos when finished don't have to be transported long distances over land before they are loaded onto container ships. Shipping to the US is easy, direct, and at minimal cost compared to other routes.

Third, the Estonia pianos are often found at independent dealerships like my own that do not also have layers of management and salespeople, thereby greatly reducing costs of doing business and thus the final price to the consumer.

The last 2 Estonia 190's I sold easily beat the dealer's best price on a Yamaha C-3 which was also being considered.

Thanks,

Nick
_________________________
Nick's Piano Showroom
Naples, Fort Myers, & Sarasota, FL
New Estonia, Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin, Brodmann & Ritmuller
239-206-4541 direct line
www.nickspiano.com

Concert Piano Technician, Dealer, and Pianist

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#2095445 - 06/04/13 04:37 PM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: Nick Mauel]
Almaviva Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 842
Loc: Richmond, Virginia
Thank you, Nick.

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#2095532 - 06/04/13 07:34 PM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: Bos Primigenius]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14681
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
So, Norbert, O esteemed pianistic sage of the North - How does Estonia do it?


Just barely....

Skandinavia: not your cheapest countries forever.

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (06/30/13 12:25 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#2095578 - 06/04/13 08:57 PM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: Norbert]
Almaviva Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 842
Loc: Richmond, Virginia
Thanks, Norbert.

I am aware of the similarities of the Estonian language to Finnish and Magyar, and the ethnic similarities of the Estonian and Finnish people. (They are also Lutherans, as opposed to the Orthodox and Catholic Slavs.) However, it never occurred to me that the Estonians would consider themselves part of "Northern Europe" until you said it. Oh well, live and learn.

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#2095759 - 06/05/13 12:12 AM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: Nick Mauel]
KillerCharlie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 142
Originally Posted By: Nick Mauel

The last 2 Estonia 190's I sold easily beat the dealer's best price on a Yamaha C-3 which was also being considered.


My Estonia was 10% less than the C3X, and that was after a lot of negotiating with the Yamaha dealer.

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#2097190 - 06/06/13 05:31 PM Re: Estonia pianos? [Re: Bos Primigenius]
Bos Primigenius Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 4
How much does a 168 or 190 cost in Canada?

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