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#2100227 - 06/10/13 10:33 AM "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Hi everyone.
Some of you may have seen my earlier post regarding my 2012 Steinway D which has not met my expectations.

Without starting a drawn out debate as to why, I was wondering what your opinion was as to the upgrade policy from Steinway which states:


"Anytime during your lifetime you can trade your Steinway-designed piano back to us and your will receive the full price you paid towards the purchase price of any new piano of greater value. (Subject to the reasonably good condition of the piano.)"

As recently discussed I do enjoy the hamburg D sound and feel and would like to upgrade.

The way I see it, the hamburg D is a Steinway of greater value and I should be eligible to return my NY D and receive a full credit and go to hamburg to pick out a new D.

Am I correct in my thinking?
I called the Steinway store in NY hall and the salesman said no because they don't have any hamburg aim stock.

I called the factory in queens and they said they will check on it and call me back.
I'd appreciate any opinions and I will also check back in and let you know what Steinway said.

Thank you

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#2100230 - 06/10/13 10:43 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Rich Galassini Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 9348
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
I am sorry, but that "promise" is just a talking point. There are disclaimers that protect Steinway so they will make money on each transaction along the way. They require size and/or series upgrades and it is nothing that any other dealer would not do to earn your business.

I would think the "fine print" might be available somewhere online, but my gut tells me that this will not lead you to an acceptable solution for you. I am sorry to tell you this.
_________________________
Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
Dir. Line (215) 991-0834
rich@cunninghampiano.com
www.cunninghampiano.com

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#2100238 - 06/10/13 11:01 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10405
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Without getting into the details of trade up policies as a business practice (though one can read about this in the FAQ section if you want -- buyback policies from the FAQ section), the fine print for this particular policy must discuss the links (or lack of links) between Hamburg and New York. That is a simple issue to clear up first. Hamburg and NY have separate territories, and the company may or may not permit trades between them.
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https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#2100243 - 06/10/13 11:15 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3360
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
The way I see it, the hamburg D is a Steinway of greater value and I should be eligible to return my NY D and receive a full credit and go to hamburg to pick out a new D.


Bahahahahahaha. Like... are you serious? For real? Seriously????



Originally Posted By: noambenhamou

Am I correct in my thinking?


NO. This program is specifically for people who purchased a Boston or Essex piano who later (within 10 years, I believe) decide to upgrade to a Steinway.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
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#2100246 - 06/10/13 11:20 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1808
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Good luck, but I'm not convinced anyone can ever really take a buyback program to the bank. It's like movie accounting. There are too many ways to game the promise.

The company that sold you the piano is in the business of making money, just like any other seller of pianos (or anything else).

In the end, I suspect that, whatever resolution that company offers you, you'd be able to equal in an arm's-length cash + trade transaction with another informed, motivated, and well-stocked dealer.
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#2100247 - 06/10/13 11:20 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
In addition to Boston and Essex, it would also apply to someone who purchased, let's say an S&S-M, and wanted to upgrade to a 'B' or 'D.'
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2100250 - 06/10/13 11:23 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10522
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
This is more involved than it may seem.

I think the pivotal issue is specifically what the OP was told at the time of purchase. Oral contracts are often binding.

Also at issue is the legal entity that made the tentative offer.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#2100279 - 06/10/13 12:05 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Minnesota Marty]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3360
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
In addition to Boston and Essex, it would also apply to someone who purchased, let's say an S&S-M, and wanted to upgrade to a 'B' or 'D.'


Are you sure? I'm pretty sure this wasn't the case when my family purchased a Boston (in the late '90s), but perhaps they changed it.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#2100281 - 06/10/13 12:18 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21810
Loc: Oakland
Someone who can afford a Steinway D can afford to ask a lawyer, rather than asking on an internet forum. But even before that, he could ask his Steinway dealer, or the Steinway company itself.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2100299 - 06/10/13 12:44 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1974
Loc: Philadelphia area
Noambenhamou, Your restarting a thread that was already closed by the forum moderators. I'm not sure what your question is exactly, so it might serve you best to contact the forum moderators for help in presenting your question.

I suggest your best option is to upgrade to a manufacturer like Bosendorfer or Faziolli and let your lawyers deal with Steinway Company and it's retail franchises.

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#2100306 - 06/10/13 12:49 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Dave B]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Originally Posted By: Dave B
Noambenhamou, Your restarting a thread that was already closed by the forum moderators. I'm not sure what your question is exactly, so it might serve you best to contact the forum moderators for help in presenting your question.

I suggest your best option is to upgrade to a manufacturer like Bosendorfer or Faziolli and let your lawyers deal with Steinway Company and it's retail franchises.



My thread that was closed was regarding year differences between Hamburg D's (new vs older) and C&A pianos vs non C&A.
This thread is regarding the upgrade policy of steinway and if I'm understanding it right. 2 totally separate topics.
Thanks

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#2100309 - 06/10/13 12:53 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: beethoven986]
mautique Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/05/10
Posts: 83
Loc: CA, USA
I believe Marty is right.
_________________________
2010 Steinway B #586826

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#2100312 - 06/10/13 12:58 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
No, your thread was closed because you became overly rude to members who responded to your thread. It became the classic example of flogging a dead horse. You only complained and became derogatory in your responses and discounted those who were trying to help you.

This thread is the same. It is up to you, and you only, to deal with the (various) Steinway dealerships, company locations, and your lawyers.

Get It? - Got It? - Good!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2100321 - 06/10/13 01:20 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2777
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty

Get It? - Got It? - Good!

Got my popcorn, let the games begin!

To the OP's inquiry. Your viewpoint is definitely one way to see it, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Steinway to agree. I suspect your choice will be perhaps another S&S NY D or punt (take delivery of the one you bought?). I realize you're trying to be creative and no sale is complete until delivery is taken so you have that small bit of leverage, but they have your money and that's the bottom line. More important, this was all discussed in the previous thread which has been locked for all the reasons Marty stated. If you've managed to alienate the people here trying to help you I've got to wonder what the folks at Steinway think of you.

Good luck!

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#2100322 - 06/10/13 01:24 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Rickster Offline


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8582
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
No, your thread was closed because you became overly rude to members who responded to your thread. It became the classic example of flogging a dead horse. You only complained and became derogatory in your responses and discounted those who were trying to help you.

This thread is the same. It is up to you, and you only, to deal with the (various) Steinway dealerships, company locations, and your lawyers.

Get It? - Got It? - Good!

Marty, for the record, noambenhamou sent me a PM and apologized for his behavior in the other thread that was closed. This thread is a different topic, as far as I can tell. Also, respect usually begets respect, so let’s all please try to follow that format.

Hopefully, this thread will not go down the same path as the other… if it does, it will be closed as well.

Rickster
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#2100332 - 06/10/13 01:32 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Actually everybody here has been very helpful except those who insinuated that my story is fictitious and were hostile towards it.
Everyone provided good advice especially that I should always play a piano before I buy and sight unseen is not a good idea.

Even in these replies alone I hear mixed opinions in regards to the upgrade policy. The main thing to clarify is whether the policy only applies for upgrade from a Boston to a Steinway or if I can upgrade from a Steinway to any Steinway of "greater value".

The idea of jumping to lawyers is extreme in my opinion. I know this is America and everyone is encouraged to seek an attorney's advice at any given circumstance. But I think that Steinway being such a reputable company, and if indeed the upgrade policy applies, I would never have to go to such extreme measures.

Another thing to remember is that a person giving advice should not feel rejected that the person asking "must" follow the advice. This is a forum and there are many advices and contradiction of opinions between people, especially on things as subjective as piano preference.

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#2100336 - 06/10/13 01:38 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Rank Piano Amateur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/07
Posts: 1790
Way off topic: who out there remembers (or knows) where "Get it, got it, good!" comes from (besides coming from Marty's post)? Or, more accurately, "Get it?" "Got it." "Good."

At least one place where it's from. . . .


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#2100338 - 06/10/13 01:40 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Rick,

You may have gotten an apology from the poster, but there was none offered to the participants of that thread, or in this. Here is your quote:

"Noambenhamou, I know you are new here, but talk like this is not acceptable on the Piano World forums.

At this point, and as a matter of courtesy to a new member, I’ll give you a friendly warning to be more respectful of other members here.

In fact, based on the way I see things heading in this thread, it has about reached its full usefulness anyway.

Thread closed...

Rickster"


I am sorry if you consider my reply to this thread to be disrespectful. It was not intended to be, but it was meant to be direct.

Respectfully,
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2100340 - 06/10/13 01:43 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Rank Piano Amateur]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Rank Piano Amateur
Way off topic: who out there remembers (or knows) where "Get it, got it, good!" comes from (besides coming from Marty's post)? Or, more accurately, "Get it?" "Got it." "Good."

At least one place where it's from. . . .


Bette Midler's "Clams on the Half-shell."
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2100346 - 06/10/13 01:48 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Noam,

Is a Hamburg S&S-D "of greater value?" The estimated prices quoted in "Piano Buyer" include such things as transportation, import duties and taxes, and all of the other added costs to market the piano in this country. I don't believe that comparing published approximates is an accurate indication of "value," at least in the monetary sense.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2100347 - 06/10/13 01:50 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Rickster Offline


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8582
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Minnisota Marty
I am sorry if you consider my reply to this thread to be disrespectful. It was not intended to be, but it was meant to be direct.

Respectfully,

Thanks for the respectful reply, Marty. smile I have a lot of respect for you too...

All I'm saying is that the OP deserves a second chance. We all can get rather irritable and feisty at times. It's part of being human. smile

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#2100351 - 06/10/13 01:54 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Rank Piano Amateur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/07
Posts: 1790
Marty: It appears in 1955's The Court Jester, with Danny Kaye. I think that predates Bette Midler. . . . Although I think that Bette Midler is terrific!

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#2100363 - 06/10/13 02:09 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Noam,

Is a Hamburg S&S-D "of greater value?" The estimated prices quoted in "Piano Buyer" include such things as transportation, import duties and taxes, and all of the other added costs to market the piano in this country. I don't believe that comparing published approximates is an accurate indication of "value," at least in the monetary sense.


Regarding my apology to the Moderator of the forum. I'm sorry I couldn't post an apology in that thread to those I have insulted since he immediately closed the thread. I did let my emotions get the best of me and I shouldn't have been so offended when 1 person said my story is some sort of cheap tactics to put down Steinway and insinuated that I was lying.
The Moderator was correct, it's a public forum and although 99% of people were extremely helpful even while not agreeing with my post, I shouldn't have gone off at the 1% because it is simply childish.

To clarify on my original post, it is not my intent to discard Steinway as a great piano then why would I be considering another Steinway? Through the replies and PM's I have been provided phone numbers for very reputable technicians and the consensus was as follows:

1) NY steinways are the responsibility of the dealer to complete. Out of the factory, they are about 50% complete
2) Hamburg steinways are much more the responsibility of the factory to voice and regulate so in turn, the selection room process in Germany makes alot more sense.
3) Steinways in general need about 1 year for the soundboard to "drop". Only then, the true nature of the instrument will be presented.
4) Hamburg steinways have a more european sound. These are two characteristics differentiating between NY and Hamburg. My personal preference is european brighter sound so in my obtuse opinion of the NY steinway calling it "junk" is a matter of personal, private, and individual preference of the sound I'm looking for.

3 days ago I bought a new yamaha upright piano because I haven't played piano in about 9 months and I absolutely love the bright sound it makes! For what it is, it's a great instrument.

Marty, I think that the term "of greater value" applies to MSRP of the piano, not accounting taxes, shipping etc... The MSRP of the Hamburg is above the NY model which is why I thought I would be eligible. When I had my B, I had no problem trading for the D and got full value for the B.

Sorry for being off topic and bringing the old thread back here because I really wanted to respect the Moderator and not bring it back to life. So any comments or opinions on upgrade policy is very much appreciated.

thank you

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#2100380 - 06/10/13 02:26 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Numerian Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 1075
Just guessing, but I think you are out of luck if you expect that just because you purchased a NY D you can force them per their policies to provide you a Hamburg D.

Doesn't your dealer know you already are unhappy with your D and want a Hamburg? If they aren't already doing everything possible to find you a Hamburg in the secondary market, or find some way to get a new one from Germany, which in either case will make them some money, then that tells you they don't want your business. If that's the case, you should give up on Steinway & Sons, and accept that you must try to fix your D to your liking, or take your loss and buy a Hamburg on your own. Personally, I wouldn't give up on your D until you've tried some reasonable fixes, like new hammers. I think, though, that this is getting too close to the substance of the other thread.

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#2100384 - 06/10/13 02:38 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Numerian]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Not "force" but ask. I don't think a company like Steinway would need to be "forced" unless you know something different than me.

I don't have a dealer because they went out of business earlier this year. I think that's why i'm so "lost" is because when you loose your dealer, nobody is really taking care of you.
When Sherman clay was still in business, I was taken care of very well. I had a bechstein and they sent a B to my house just so I can hear the difference free of charge. Then after I bought a B, and I wanted a D, I got full value and they gave me a loaner D while I was waiting to go to NY and pick one.

So the experience of dealing with a Steinway dealer is good, but when now I have to get another dealer involved, they don't really care to help. I called again the NY store and said I have a NY D I wanted to trade up to a Hamburg. He was rude, and told me to go back to the store where I bought it. When I told him the store went out of business, he said - we have no D's. Can't help you. 2nd time the salesmen at the NY store were rude. Sorry for complaining...

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#2100510 - 06/10/13 05:44 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
AndyJ Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/12
Posts: 219
Loc: Near Dayton, Ohio USA
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
2nd time the salesmen at the NY store were rude. Sorry for complaining...

When you're in California and talking to someone in New York, you have to adjust your etiquette meter quite a few stops. I didn't hear your conversations, but it's possible the salesmen were merely delivering information New York-style. While this may be completely neutral from the New Yorker's perspective, it can often be perceived as rude from a Californian vantage point.

Andy

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#2100517 - 06/10/13 05:56 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Got a call back from Steinway corporate. The upgrade policy is only when you go from Boston to Steinway.

Oh well, was worth a shot. Thanks for the replies.

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#2100524 - 06/10/13 06:07 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
RickG1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/10
Posts: 306
Loc: TX
Noam,
You said when you traded your "B" for a "D", they gave you full value for the "B". Then, you said they would not negotiate the price on the new "D", right? Does that mean that when you trade up you cannot deal first on the new piano before talking trade? Sounds like some car dealers I know. I am just trying to understand their trade up policy at S & S.
_________________________
Mason-Hamlin "A"
Steinway "B"
Baldwin console

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#2100528 - 06/10/13 06:13 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
Got a call back from Steinway corporate. The upgrade policy is only when you go from Boston to Steinway.

You said that you received full value when you traded from a 'B' to a 'D." To the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing as a Boston-B. Then, how can the trade up only be for Boston and is the Essex also excluded?
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2100532 - 06/10/13 06:18 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14187
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Yours is a somewhat curious situation.
Ever thought of having hammers changed to same Hamburgs are using? We did this once and customer was quite elated.
Just a thought.....
Norbert smile


Edited by Norbert (06/10/13 07:54 PM)
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