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#2101984 - 06/13/13 01:31 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Ach Norman, die Deutsche schwester ist nichts wie die Amerikanische schwester.
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#2101985 - 06/13/13 01:33 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Norbert]
Carbonblob Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/13
Posts: 359
Loc: Los Angeles, Ca.
Norbert, great post.....and don't forget to tip your waitress on the way out.....night.

ps......variety is the spice of life. I would suggest getting off the SS band wagon as you suggest and start playing all the great models everyone here is suggesting. I recall you recently helped a memeber. You suggested he try a make and model you thought they might like and now they own it! Beating a dead horse at this point, poor horse!
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#2101998 - 06/13/13 01:55 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Not so fast there smile I have tried concert grands of the other manufacturers. Not all but some. Bousendorffer, bechstein, the new yamaha everyone is raving about.

I have never heard a sweeter sound that of a Steinway. Any Steinway whether it be NY or Hamburg. But that is just my personal taste and we have a saying in Hebrew: "regarding taste and smell, there is no debate".

I know it looks like by my discontent with my D that I may be bashing Steinway and I do not wish for this thread to go that route. On the contrary, I love the Steinway sound!!!! I just think my D can be much better and for the price I paid, I feel entitled to get the best - for me. Since they are all different between eachother, and have two seporate flavors - that of hamburg and that of NY, there is one out there truly for me.

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#2101999 - 06/13/13 01:56 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Norbert Online   content
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Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14190
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
Ach Norman, die Deutsche schwester ist nichts wie die Amerikanische schwester.


Perhaps, but "Amerikaner lieben Deutsche Schwester".....

Always wondered "why".

Norbert blush
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#2102001 - 06/13/13 02:01 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Norbert Online   content
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Quote:
I have never heard a sweeter sound that of a Steinway. Any Steinway whether it be NY or Hamburg.


VERY different sounding pianos, both nice.
Tried Mason Hamlin by chance?

Now with regards to "sweetness of sound", tried....ah better stop.

Norbert grin
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#2102008 - 06/13/13 02:07 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Norbert]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
I have never heard a sweeter sound that of a Steinway. Any Steinway whether it be NY or Hamburg.


VERY different sounding pianos, both nice.
Tried Mason Hamlin by chance?

Now with regards to "sweetness of sound", tried....ah better stop.

Norbert grin



Yes. Mason Hamlin is actually makes an amazing sound! The action wasn't my favorite and that makes a difference.

I've been thinking about it alot, and in my opinion a great piano has a very special relationship between the sound and the touch. In other words, the touch felt by pressing the keys should somehow reflect the sound produced.

To simplify, if possible, a brighter piano should have lighter action. And mellowed piano have heavier and deeper action. This is my opinion for myself - that's what I like. Not pushing this on anyone.

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#2102094 - 06/13/13 05:17 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Carbonblob Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/13
Posts: 359
Loc: Los Angeles, Ca.
noam,

fair enough.....blob
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#2102120 - 06/13/13 06:04 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
LJC Offline
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Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1531
Loc: New York
Mr. N. Did you or did you not test your model D before you bought it?

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#2102137 - 06/13/13 06:53 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
BDB Online   content
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There is not that much difference between Hamburg and New York Steinways. In both cases, it depends more on how they are voiced.
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#2102140 - 06/13/13 07:02 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Norbert Online   content
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Quote:
There is not that much difference between Hamburg and New York Steinways. In both cases, it depends more on how they are voiced.


You're sure of this?

Both pianos are apparently specifically designed to sound very differently. The're using very different hammers.

Steinway has always been first one pointing this out....

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (06/13/13 07:07 PM)
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#2102146 - 06/13/13 07:23 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
AJF Offline
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Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1650
Loc: Toronto
Hamburgs to my ears and fingers are a completely different piano than The Ny models. The only people I've ever heard say they are the same are NY Steinway dealers:)

Good luck Noam. I feel the pain of your dissatisfaction and hope you find a good resolution soon. There's some good advice on this thread. Hopefully you can weed out the not-so-good advice from those here who have too much time on their hands and nothing of value to add except to stroke their own small intellectual egos.
You're not an idiot or a bad person for finding yourself in this place. You deserve to have everything you want in the end--unfortunately though you just might not be *entitled* to it, so you'll have to be creative about getting it.
All the best,
Adrean


Edited by AJF (06/13/13 07:25 PM)
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#2102157 - 06/13/13 07:52 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: BDB]
Hamburg-D Offline
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Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Originally Posted By: BDB
There is not that much difference between Hamburg and New York Steinways. In both cases, it depends more on how they are voiced.



You are a piano technician so I respect your opinion. Can you then explain why the hamburg a have a brighter sound? Are they voiced to have a brighter sound out of the hamburg factory because the consumer in Europe prefers brighter sound?

Why are the hammers different? NY makes their own which are soft and have to be hardened with chemical. Hamburg are made by renner and are naturally hard without chemical and have to be brought down with needling. Am I correct?

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#2102164 - 06/13/13 08:10 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Norbert Online   content
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Quote:
Why are the hammers different? NY makes their own which are soft and have to be hardened with chemical. Hamburg are made by renner and are naturally hard without chemical and have to be brought down with needling. Am I correct?


The different hammers are part of the different philosophy.

In using top Renners, Hamburgs share the same sound ideal as many other German/European makes: not exactly 'bright-bright' but clear, powerful AND highly resonant at same time.

Think perhaps of an opera singer, nothing 'muffled' 'layered' or 'dark' about their voice.

Some may be thinnner than others, some have more overtones but all are very "clear" projecting tone very well.

IMHO based on a long tradition of European tonality in general.

Oh sole mio...

Norbert smile



Edited by Norbert (06/13/13 08:14 PM)
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#2102179 - 06/13/13 09:09 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Signor Marten,

Sono d'accordo con la vostra valutazione. Tu non sei solo a tutti!

Amburgo è un design completamente diverso e suona in questo modo. Come per ogni cosa, c'è uno scopo. Non sono solo i martelli che sono diversi.
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It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2102210 - 06/13/13 10:46 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Norbert Online   content
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Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14190
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Signor Marty:

Non credo che sia una questione di accordo, ma realtà.
Una "bella" fatto a proposito. Come noi italiani dicono: "E 'bello avere due bellezze di una sola" ...

Bravo, bravissimo!

Norbert thumb
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#2102219 - 06/13/13 11:00 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Thrill Science Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 530
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
We have a saying in Hebrew: "regarding taste and smell, there is no debate".


A better translation would be "Taste and smell do not argue."

"על טעם ועל ריח אין להתוכח"

Are you really a Hebrew speaker? :-)

(Here's a link to the Hebrew Wiktionary.)
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#2102263 - 06/14/13 01:38 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
BDB Online   content
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Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21811
Loc: Oakland
The Hamburg Steinways that I have seen have been all over the map, just like those from New York. There seem to be different ways of voicing them which reflect the different people who voice them. Sometimes the felt is harder, sometimes softer, just like New York.

The designs are the same. The variations are not significantly different. The actions are close enough.

What has been the biggest difference is the build quality, but that seems to be converging somewhat. In the long run, what matters is the person who takes care of it, which is a bigger variable than the piano itself.

I was recently asked what piano to get for a new hall around here, New York or Hamburg. On my advice, they got a New York D, and with the money saved, and a little more, got a CFX as well. I do not think anybody complains that it is New York, rather than Hamburg.

The most important difference between various Steinways is that everyone has different standards and methods for voicing pianos, and Steinway hammers are different from most others. But the last set of hammers from Hamburg that I worked on were not a lot different from New York hammers, nor were the results. As usual, I thought I could do more, but people are usually more than satisfied before I get the really fine points of voicing, which might take another day or two.
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#2102266 - 06/14/13 01:56 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Thrill Science]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
We have a saying in Hebrew: "regarding taste and smell, there is no debate".


A better translation would be "Taste and smell do not argue."

"על טעם ועל ריח אין להתוכח"

Are you really a Hebrew speaker? :-)

(Here's a link to the Hebrew Wiktionary.)



Ken. Ani meisrael. Very cool you recognize that phrase smile hahahaha

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#2102275 - 06/14/13 02:43 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3665
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
We have a saying in Hebrew: "regarding taste and smell, there is no debate".


A better translation would be "Taste and smell do not argue."

"על טעם ועל ריח אין להתוכח"

Are you really a Hebrew speaker? :-)

(Here's a link to the Hebrew Wiktionary.)



Ken. Ani meisrael. Very cool you recognize that phrase smile hahahaha


The most remarkable thing to come out of this thread, for me, is the good grace and humour with which Noam takes the barbs being thrown his way. It's a real credit to you Noam, that you don't stoop to others' levels when they are having a crack at you. I hope you get the piano you desire. Best wishes.

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#2102336 - 06/14/13 08:26 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: BDB]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: BDB
The designs are the same. The variations are not significantly different. The actions are close enough.

Interesting. That is a direct contradiction of the Head Technician from the Steinway C&A program in an interview during the Cliburn Competition.
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It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2102362 - 06/14/13 09:12 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
BrainCramp Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/12
Posts: 269
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
We have a saying in Hebrew: "regarding taste and smell, there is no debate".


A better translation would be "Taste and smell do not argue."

"על טעם ועל ריח אין להתוכח"

Are you really a Hebrew speaker? :-)

(Here's a link to the Hebrew Wiktionary.)



Ken. Ani meisrael. Very cool you recognize that phrase smile hahahaha

Ani lo medeberet ivrit. That's all I remember from my attempt to learn Modern Hebrew. I used to have clever little stickers on my keyboard to type the Hebrew letters, but Windows made it tricky to switch to right-to-left reliably.

I hope to persist with learning piano longer than I did with Hebrew. It's similar, though. Practice, practice, practice. And occasional shouting.

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#2102584 - 06/14/13 05:57 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
LJC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1531
Loc: New York
S&S D, NY vs. Hamburg. Agree they are converging but they are still different. I do think they are the same design but they are built differently. They now both use the same plate. My Hamburg has a sightly different plate that used to be used in Hamburgs. As stated the hammers are different but I do not see that as a design difference. They now both use Alaskan sitka for the sound board. Hamburg has not adapted the accelerated action that NY has. Hamburg tunes to A 442 while NY tunes to A-440. (I have it from a reliable source that Horowitz had his NY D tuned sharp) The NY D has a compression crowned board while the Hamburg has ribbed crown. I believe the wood used in NY rims is somewhat different. (not sure about this one) The wood is seasoned (cured) differently. Thereby the caution in having a Hamburg in North America. The finished case style is slightly different. The NY one looks more modern to me. I hear Hamburg will be using the NY pedal box. Probably since they are produced in NY with computer milling machines (no mistakes). This would not make a difference to the sound of course. There may be other differences I am unaware of.

Mr. N I am still curious as to how you have a new model D and you're not happy. Didn't you play the piano before you bought it?

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#2102588 - 06/14/13 06:21 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: LJC]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1228
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: LJC
S&S D, NY vs. Hamburg. Agree they are converging but they are still different. I do think they are the same design but they are built differently.


Don't forget the sostenuto...

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#2102626 - 06/14/13 08:09 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Norbert]
Steve Cohen Offline
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Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10523
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
There is not that much difference between Hamburg and New York Steinways. In both cases, it depends more on how they are voiced.


You're sure of this?

Both pianos are apparently specifically designed to sound very differently. The're using very different hammers.

Steinway has always been first one pointing this out....

Norbert


This article might shed some light on the subject:

http://www.pianobuyer.com/PDFarchive/2011_SteinwayFitAndFinish.pdf
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#2102763 - 06/15/13 03:45 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
phacke Online   content

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 576
Loc: CO, USA
Hello Mr. Cohen, that link you gave just above was very informative, it went far in answering some questions that I had about the current best practices of hammer prep at Steinway. Thank you.

The impression however is that if you buy replacement hammers at Steinway according to best practices, they must be purchased for the exact model you have, and that because most rebuild shops and owners don't have pounding machines to break in these new/improved low-lacquer hammers, it will take a long time of playing to manually pound in the hammer wool to get good sound. Is that your impression?

Regards -


Edited by phacke (06/15/13 04:01 AM)
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#2102801 - 06/15/13 06:58 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: LJC]
lilylady Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 4981
Loc: boston north
Originally Posted By: LJC

Mr. N I am still curious as to how you have a new model D and you're not happy. Didn't you play the piano before you bought it?


LJC, nice to see you posting. Great memories of playing your Hamburg D!

There was a thread that was closed that might explain it better. In the opening statement, Mr. N stated "I flew to the factory about 9 months ago and picked the best one out of 5."

Although closed, the thread is still available to view.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post2095668
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#2102818 - 06/15/13 08:33 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Piano*Dad Offline
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Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10405
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
What does that say about the other four … grin

Wow, I'm being a real noodge today.
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#2102849 - 06/15/13 10:21 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: LJC]
Orz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/21/13
Posts: 61
Originally Posted By: LJC
I believe the wood used in NY rims is somewhat different. (not sure about this one) The wood is seasoned (cured) differently. Thereby the caution in having a Hamburg in North America.


I went to STS factory tour with the local dealer about a year ago, and I remember seeing a big pile of cut Maple wood pieces for the rims. The guide said they were about to ship them to Hamburg...

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#2102882 - 06/15/13 12:06 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Norbert Online   content
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Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14190
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Personally I have never heard of Hamburgs having their Renner hammers replaced with New York hammers.

It's always seems going the other way around.
In fact we've done few in past ourselves - by owners request.

They later were VERY happy with results.

Not saying it couldn't have gone the other way either...

Norbert
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#2102921 - 06/15/13 02:14 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: phacke]
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3659
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Originally Posted By: phacke
The impression however is that if you buy replacement hammers at Steinway according to best practices, they must be purchased for the exact model you have, and that because most rebuild shops and owners don't have pounding machines to break in these new/improved low-lacquer hammers, it will take a long time of playing to manually pound in the hammer wool to get good sound.
Regards -



Breaking in a similar type of hammer Steinway New York uses. These are made by Ronsen and have a softer pliable felt then what most other companies use. Every piano we rebuild no matter what hammer is used, get this "pounding" for 30 hours. We also go this on our Walter grands in our prep sequence.

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