Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
Topic Options
#2100227 - 06/10/13 10:33 AM "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Hi everyone.
Some of you may have seen my earlier post regarding my 2012 Steinway D which has not met my expectations.

Without starting a drawn out debate as to why, I was wondering what your opinion was as to the upgrade policy from Steinway which states:


"Anytime during your lifetime you can trade your Steinway-designed piano back to us and your will receive the full price you paid towards the purchase price of any new piano of greater value. (Subject to the reasonably good condition of the piano.)"

As recently discussed I do enjoy the hamburg D sound and feel and would like to upgrade.

The way I see it, the hamburg D is a Steinway of greater value and I should be eligible to return my NY D and receive a full credit and go to hamburg to pick out a new D.

Am I correct in my thinking?
I called the Steinway store in NY hall and the salesman said no because they don't have any hamburg aim stock.

I called the factory in queens and they said they will check on it and call me back.
I'd appreciate any opinions and I will also check back in and let you know what Steinway said.

Thank you

Top
(ads 568) Hailun Pianos

#2100230 - 06/10/13 10:43 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Rich Galassini Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 9145
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
I am sorry, but that "promise" is just a talking point. There are disclaimers that protect Steinway so they will make money on each transaction along the way. They require size and/or series upgrades and it is nothing that any other dealer would not do to earn your business.

I would think the "fine print" might be available somewhere online, but my gut tells me that this will not lead you to an acceptable solution for you. I am sorry to tell you this.
_________________________
Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
Dir. Line (215) 991-0834
rich@cunninghampiano.com
Get Cunningham Piano Email Updates

Top
#2100238 - 06/10/13 11:01 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10349
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Without getting into the details of trade up policies as a business practice (though one can read about this in the FAQ section if you want -- buyback policies from the FAQ section), the fine print for this particular policy must discuss the links (or lack of links) between Hamburg and New York. That is a simple issue to clear up first. Hamburg and NY have separate territories, and the company may or may not permit trades between them.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

Top
#2100243 - 06/10/13 11:15 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3320
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
The way I see it, the hamburg D is a Steinway of greater value and I should be eligible to return my NY D and receive a full credit and go to hamburg to pick out a new D.


Bahahahahahaha. Like... are you serious? For real? Seriously????



Originally Posted By: noambenhamou

Am I correct in my thinking?


NO. This program is specifically for people who purchased a Boston or Essex piano who later (within 10 years, I believe) decide to upgrade to a Steinway.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

Top
#2100246 - 06/10/13 11:20 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1717
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Good luck, but I'm not convinced anyone can ever really take a buyback program to the bank. It's like movie accounting. There are too many ways to game the promise.

The company that sold you the piano is in the business of making money, just like any other seller of pianos (or anything else).

In the end, I suspect that, whatever resolution that company offers you, you'd be able to equal in an arm's-length cash + trade transaction with another informed, motivated, and well-stocked dealer.
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

Top
#2100247 - 06/10/13 11:20 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
In addition to Boston and Essex, it would also apply to someone who purchased, let's say an S&S-M, and wanted to upgrade to a 'B' or 'D.'
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2100250 - 06/10/13 11:23 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10452
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
This is more involved than it may seem.

I think the pivotal issue is specifically what the OP was told at the time of purchase. Oral contracts are often binding.

Also at issue is the legal entity that made the tentative offer.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

Top
#2100279 - 06/10/13 12:05 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Minnesota Marty]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3320
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
In addition to Boston and Essex, it would also apply to someone who purchased, let's say an S&S-M, and wanted to upgrade to a 'B' or 'D.'


Are you sure? I'm pretty sure this wasn't the case when my family purchased a Boston (in the late '90s), but perhaps they changed it.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

Top
#2100281 - 06/10/13 12:18 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21304
Loc: Oakland
Someone who can afford a Steinway D can afford to ask a lawyer, rather than asking on an internet forum. But even before that, he could ask his Steinway dealer, or the Steinway company itself.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2100299 - 06/10/13 12:44 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1912
Loc: Philadelphia area
Noambenhamou, Your restarting a thread that was already closed by the forum moderators. I'm not sure what your question is exactly, so it might serve you best to contact the forum moderators for help in presenting your question.

I suggest your best option is to upgrade to a manufacturer like Bosendorfer or Faziolli and let your lawyers deal with Steinway Company and it's retail franchises.

Top
#2100306 - 06/10/13 12:49 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Dave B]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Originally Posted By: Dave B
Noambenhamou, Your restarting a thread that was already closed by the forum moderators. I'm not sure what your question is exactly, so it might serve you best to contact the forum moderators for help in presenting your question.

I suggest your best option is to upgrade to a manufacturer like Bosendorfer or Faziolli and let your lawyers deal with Steinway Company and it's retail franchises.



My thread that was closed was regarding year differences between Hamburg D's (new vs older) and C&A pianos vs non C&A.
This thread is regarding the upgrade policy of steinway and if I'm understanding it right. 2 totally separate topics.
Thanks

Top
#2100309 - 06/10/13 12:53 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: beethoven986]
mautique Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/05/10
Posts: 78
Loc: CA, USA
I believe Marty is right.
_________________________
2010 Steinway B #586826

Top
#2100312 - 06/10/13 12:58 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
No, your thread was closed because you became overly rude to members who responded to your thread. It became the classic example of flogging a dead horse. You only complained and became derogatory in your responses and discounted those who were trying to help you.

This thread is the same. It is up to you, and you only, to deal with the (various) Steinway dealerships, company locations, and your lawyers.

Get It? - Got It? - Good!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2100321 - 06/10/13 01:20 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2703
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty

Get It? - Got It? - Good!

Got my popcorn, let the games begin!

To the OP's inquiry. Your viewpoint is definitely one way to see it, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Steinway to agree. I suspect your choice will be perhaps another S&S NY D or punt (take delivery of the one you bought?). I realize you're trying to be creative and no sale is complete until delivery is taken so you have that small bit of leverage, but they have your money and that's the bottom line. More important, this was all discussed in the previous thread which has been locked for all the reasons Marty stated. If you've managed to alienate the people here trying to help you I've got to wonder what the folks at Steinway think of you.

Good luck!

Top
#2100322 - 06/10/13 01:24 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8425
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
No, your thread was closed because you became overly rude to members who responded to your thread. It became the classic example of flogging a dead horse. You only complained and became derogatory in your responses and discounted those who were trying to help you.

This thread is the same. It is up to you, and you only, to deal with the (various) Steinway dealerships, company locations, and your lawyers.

Get It? - Got It? - Good!

Marty, for the record, noambenhamou sent me a PM and apologized for his behavior in the other thread that was closed. This thread is a different topic, as far as I can tell. Also, respect usually begets respect, so let’s all please try to follow that format.

Hopefully, this thread will not go down the same path as the other… if it does, it will be closed as well.

Rickster
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

Top
#2100332 - 06/10/13 01:32 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Actually everybody here has been very helpful except those who insinuated that my story is fictitious and were hostile towards it.
Everyone provided good advice especially that I should always play a piano before I buy and sight unseen is not a good idea.

Even in these replies alone I hear mixed opinions in regards to the upgrade policy. The main thing to clarify is whether the policy only applies for upgrade from a Boston to a Steinway or if I can upgrade from a Steinway to any Steinway of "greater value".

The idea of jumping to lawyers is extreme in my opinion. I know this is America and everyone is encouraged to seek an attorney's advice at any given circumstance. But I think that Steinway being such a reputable company, and if indeed the upgrade policy applies, I would never have to go to such extreme measures.

Another thing to remember is that a person giving advice should not feel rejected that the person asking "must" follow the advice. This is a forum and there are many advices and contradiction of opinions between people, especially on things as subjective as piano preference.

Top
#2100336 - 06/10/13 01:38 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Rank Piano Amateur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/07
Posts: 1753
Way off topic: who out there remembers (or knows) where "Get it, got it, good!" comes from (besides coming from Marty's post)? Or, more accurately, "Get it?" "Got it." "Good."

At least one place where it's from. . . .


Top
#2100338 - 06/10/13 01:40 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Rick,

You may have gotten an apology from the poster, but there was none offered to the participants of that thread, or in this. Here is your quote:

"Noambenhamou, I know you are new here, but talk like this is not acceptable on the Piano World forums.

At this point, and as a matter of courtesy to a new member, I’ll give you a friendly warning to be more respectful of other members here.

In fact, based on the way I see things heading in this thread, it has about reached its full usefulness anyway.

Thread closed...

Rickster"


I am sorry if you consider my reply to this thread to be disrespectful. It was not intended to be, but it was meant to be direct.

Respectfully,
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2100340 - 06/10/13 01:43 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Rank Piano Amateur]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Rank Piano Amateur
Way off topic: who out there remembers (or knows) where "Get it, got it, good!" comes from (besides coming from Marty's post)? Or, more accurately, "Get it?" "Got it." "Good."

At least one place where it's from. . . .


Bette Midler's "Clams on the Half-shell."
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2100346 - 06/10/13 01:48 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Noam,

Is a Hamburg S&S-D "of greater value?" The estimated prices quoted in "Piano Buyer" include such things as transportation, import duties and taxes, and all of the other added costs to market the piano in this country. I don't believe that comparing published approximates is an accurate indication of "value," at least in the monetary sense.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2100347 - 06/10/13 01:50 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8425
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Minnisota Marty
I am sorry if you consider my reply to this thread to be disrespectful. It was not intended to be, but it was meant to be direct.

Respectfully,

Thanks for the respectful reply, Marty. smile I have a lot of respect for you too...

All I'm saying is that the OP deserves a second chance. We all can get rather irritable and feisty at times. It's part of being human. smile

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

Top
#2100351 - 06/10/13 01:54 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Rank Piano Amateur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/07
Posts: 1753
Marty: It appears in 1955's The Court Jester, with Danny Kaye. I think that predates Bette Midler. . . . Although I think that Bette Midler is terrific!

Top
#2100363 - 06/10/13 02:09 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Noam,

Is a Hamburg S&S-D "of greater value?" The estimated prices quoted in "Piano Buyer" include such things as transportation, import duties and taxes, and all of the other added costs to market the piano in this country. I don't believe that comparing published approximates is an accurate indication of "value," at least in the monetary sense.


Regarding my apology to the Moderator of the forum. I'm sorry I couldn't post an apology in that thread to those I have insulted since he immediately closed the thread. I did let my emotions get the best of me and I shouldn't have been so offended when 1 person said my story is some sort of cheap tactics to put down Steinway and insinuated that I was lying.
The Moderator was correct, it's a public forum and although 99% of people were extremely helpful even while not agreeing with my post, I shouldn't have gone off at the 1% because it is simply childish.

To clarify on my original post, it is not my intent to discard Steinway as a great piano then why would I be considering another Steinway? Through the replies and PM's I have been provided phone numbers for very reputable technicians and the consensus was as follows:

1) NY steinways are the responsibility of the dealer to complete. Out of the factory, they are about 50% complete
2) Hamburg steinways are much more the responsibility of the factory to voice and regulate so in turn, the selection room process in Germany makes alot more sense.
3) Steinways in general need about 1 year for the soundboard to "drop". Only then, the true nature of the instrument will be presented.
4) Hamburg steinways have a more european sound. These are two characteristics differentiating between NY and Hamburg. My personal preference is european brighter sound so in my obtuse opinion of the NY steinway calling it "junk" is a matter of personal, private, and individual preference of the sound I'm looking for.

3 days ago I bought a new yamaha upright piano because I haven't played piano in about 9 months and I absolutely love the bright sound it makes! For what it is, it's a great instrument.

Marty, I think that the term "of greater value" applies to MSRP of the piano, not accounting taxes, shipping etc... The MSRP of the Hamburg is above the NY model which is why I thought I would be eligible. When I had my B, I had no problem trading for the D and got full value for the B.

Sorry for being off topic and bringing the old thread back here because I really wanted to respect the Moderator and not bring it back to life. So any comments or opinions on upgrade policy is very much appreciated.

thank you

Top
#2100380 - 06/10/13 02:26 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Numerian Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 1075
Just guessing, but I think you are out of luck if you expect that just because you purchased a NY D you can force them per their policies to provide you a Hamburg D.

Doesn't your dealer know you already are unhappy with your D and want a Hamburg? If they aren't already doing everything possible to find you a Hamburg in the secondary market, or find some way to get a new one from Germany, which in either case will make them some money, then that tells you they don't want your business. If that's the case, you should give up on Steinway & Sons, and accept that you must try to fix your D to your liking, or take your loss and buy a Hamburg on your own. Personally, I wouldn't give up on your D until you've tried some reasonable fixes, like new hammers. I think, though, that this is getting too close to the substance of the other thread.

Top
#2100384 - 06/10/13 02:38 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Numerian]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Not "force" but ask. I don't think a company like Steinway would need to be "forced" unless you know something different than me.

I don't have a dealer because they went out of business earlier this year. I think that's why i'm so "lost" is because when you loose your dealer, nobody is really taking care of you.
When Sherman clay was still in business, I was taken care of very well. I had a bechstein and they sent a B to my house just so I can hear the difference free of charge. Then after I bought a B, and I wanted a D, I got full value and they gave me a loaner D while I was waiting to go to NY and pick one.

So the experience of dealing with a Steinway dealer is good, but when now I have to get another dealer involved, they don't really care to help. I called again the NY store and said I have a NY D I wanted to trade up to a Hamburg. He was rude, and told me to go back to the store where I bought it. When I told him the store went out of business, he said - we have no D's. Can't help you. 2nd time the salesmen at the NY store were rude. Sorry for complaining...

Top
#2100510 - 06/10/13 05:44 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
AndyJ Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/12
Posts: 218
Loc: Near Dayton, Ohio USA
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
2nd time the salesmen at the NY store were rude. Sorry for complaining...

When you're in California and talking to someone in New York, you have to adjust your etiquette meter quite a few stops. I didn't hear your conversations, but it's possible the salesmen were merely delivering information New York-style. While this may be completely neutral from the New Yorker's perspective, it can often be perceived as rude from a Californian vantage point.

Andy

Top
#2100517 - 06/10/13 05:56 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Got a call back from Steinway corporate. The upgrade policy is only when you go from Boston to Steinway.

Oh well, was worth a shot. Thanks for the replies.

Top
#2100524 - 06/10/13 06:07 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
RickG1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/10
Posts: 301
Loc: TX
Noam,
You said when you traded your "B" for a "D", they gave you full value for the "B". Then, you said they would not negotiate the price on the new "D", right? Does that mean that when you trade up you cannot deal first on the new piano before talking trade? Sounds like some car dealers I know. I am just trying to understand their trade up policy at S & S.
_________________________
Mason-Hamlin "A"
Steinway "B"
Baldwin console

Top
#2100528 - 06/10/13 06:13 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
Got a call back from Steinway corporate. The upgrade policy is only when you go from Boston to Steinway.

You said that you received full value when you traded from a 'B' to a 'D." To the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing as a Boston-B. Then, how can the trade up only be for Boston and is the Essex also excluded?
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2100532 - 06/10/13 06:18 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14120
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Yours is a somewhat curious situation.
Ever thought of having hammers changed to same Hamburgs are using? We did this once and customer was quite elated.
Just a thought.....
Norbert smile


Edited by Norbert (06/10/13 07:54 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

Top
#2100533 - 06/10/13 06:19 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: RickG1]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Originally Posted By: RickG1
Noam,
You said when you traded your "B" for a "D", they gave you full value for the "B". Then, you said they would not negotiate the price on the new "D", right? Does that mean that when you trade up you cannot deal first on the new piano before talking trade? Sounds like some car dealers I know. I am just trying to understand their trade up policy at S & S.



Unfortunately it seems as if the piano business is extremely similar to the car business. Just because pianos are used to play beautiful music, the sales aspect of piano is no different than any other negotiable high end item such as mattresses, cars, diamonds etc.

Most piano salesmen and store owners do not play piano very well so you can not expect they would know a good piano if one hit them in the face! The problem is that they talk about pianos as if they were Polini.

Of course there are exceptions to every rule!!!!!
Basically, if a dealer sells Steinway, they will talk up Steinway. Next month when they loose their right to sell steinways, they will bash Steinway and sell you a fazioli as the best instrument.

If I had to so it all over again I would have played hard ball with the dealer. They would have no problem sleeping at night if you paid them 100k for a B. just like most car salesmen would have no problem selling a new Honda accord for 10k over msrp if there was an idiot dumb enough to pay it.

In the case of pianos, I'm the idiot. I bought full msrp and now I want some service and care but the money was already exchanged. Business is business.

So to answer your question, if you negotiate a price, then bring your trade, all bets are off. Just like a car dealership. I think always better to sell private party.


Edited by noambenhamou (06/10/13 06:30 PM)

Top
#2100538 - 06/10/13 06:25 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
Got a call back from Steinway corporate. The upgrade policy is only when you go from Boston to Steinway.

You said that you received full value when you traded from a 'B' to a 'D." To the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing as a Boston-B. Then, how can the trade up only be for Boston and is the Essex also excluded?


Essex included. Sorry and thanks for clarification.

I received full value for my B yes. But it was my local dealer being "nice".
So they gave me around 80k credit and I had to she'll put another 60k.
Given the fact that the dealer gets a new D from Steinway at wholesale cost of around 65k, and they sold my used B for probably 65k, I think they did pretty well.
It only takes 1 idiot per month to keep a piano store open. So I did my civil duties and helped out the economy a little tiny bit, but now it's time to find a good deal on a hamburg.

Top
#2100568 - 06/10/13 07:21 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1728
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
Through the replies and PM's I have been provided phone numbers for very reputable technicians
3) Steinways in general need about 1 year for the soundboard to "drop". Only then, the true nature of the instrument will be presented.


If you're in LA, I hope the names-Richard Davenport, Ed Whiting, Alan Cate, Ron Elliott, or Teri Meredyth were mentioned. smile

I bought my piano from a private seller being only 8 months old. I'd say it took a good 3 years of pro tunning, regulation, voicing and many hours of "just playing it in" for me to be happy with it. Often, I wanted my '97 Yamaha S6 back which I had sold to help fund the D. It was very hard being patient, waiting and hoping for *if* and *when*.. wink

Not to drudge up your old thread but I recall you said the no tech could make a difference..or something to that effect. If you are in the LA area, I highly recommend getting in touch with one of those people no matter what piano you end up with. They are the best !

Alan has been my main tuner and tech since day 1. Ed did some magical, out of this world regulation and voicing that really turned the piano around.

Ron is the main tech at Disney Hall so he's very busy. Richard is simply as good as it can possibly get and if I lived on the Westside, he would be my guy. Teri is busy with Royce Hall but does private stuff too, she's great !

Best with it all.
_________________________
http://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP5, CP4, Nord Piano 2
RCF TT08A & TT22A speakers


Top
#2100578 - 06/10/13 07:39 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Dave Ferris]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
Through the replies and PM's I have been provided phone numbers for very reputable technicians
3) Steinways in general need about 1 year for the soundboard to "drop". Only then, the true nature of the instrument will be presented.


If you're in LA, I hope the names-Richard Davenport, Ed Whiting, Alan Cate, Ron Elliott, or Teri Meredyth were mentioned. smile

I bought my piano from a private seller being only 8 months old. I'd say it took a good 3 years of pro tunning, regulation, voicing and many hours of "just playing it in" for me to be happy with it. Often, I wanted my '97 Yamaha S6 back which I had sold to help fund the D. It was very hard being patient, waiting and hoping for *if* and *when*.. wink

Not to drudge up your old thread but I recall you said the no tech could make a difference..or something to that effect. If you are in the LA area, I highly recommend getting in touch with one of those people no matter what piano you end up with. They are the best !

Alan has been my main tuner and tech since day 1. Ed did some magical, out of this world regulation and voicing that really turned the piano around.

Ron is the main tech at Disney Hall so he's very busy. Richard is simply as good as it can possibly get and if I lived on the Westside, he would be my guy. Teri is busy with Royce Hall but does private stuff too, she's great !

Best with it all.


Thanks Mr. Ferris for that reply. I'll keep those names for my record.
It is very nice to hear that you had a similar experience as me with a newer D. Lets me know I'm not alone. Also nice to have your kind of patience to actually wait for the piano to mature with the proper care.
It's kind of strange, but I've never played a D that wasn't pretty nice unless it was horribly abused - and there are some of those too.
This strengthen my opinion that the new D's are a completely different animals than the rest of the pianos. They need time to settle in. I think this may be because the New Yorks have soft hammers and the only "good" way to harden them is with continues playing and allowing the hammers to compress hitting the strings a million times... Pooring loads of laquer on a new D to bring the sound out does not seem to be the proper way to brighten the sound to produce a nice tone with capabilities of a wide dynamic range. But it's awesome to hear that even my piano after I will sell it, will end up being a great instrument. But as for myself, I don't want to wait and suffer the "ifs" and "whens". Too much gamble for me I'm afraid.

Again - thanks for the names you have mentioned. I'm always looking for the best technicians for the job. These pianos need to be maintained properly and I totally get that.

Kind regards,
Noam

Top
#2100585 - 06/10/13 07:51 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10349
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Quote:
Unfortunately it seems as if the piano business is extremely similar to the car business.


Oh, I think it's much more dangerous than the car business! smile

If you pay MSRP to the car dealership, you probably lose no more than ten to fifteen percent from what you could have paid if you were a decent researcher and negotiator. In the piano business, you could pay thirty to fifty percent more than you need to. In the Steinway case, however, the average customer pays closer to MSRP than on many other models, so the extent to which you were taken to the proverbial cleaner is probably less than if you paid MSRP on most Japanese or German pianos.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

Top
#2100606 - 06/10/13 08:19 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6225
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
It only takes 1 idiot per month to keep a piano store open.


A Steinway store perhaps..... grin
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2100609 - 06/10/13 08:23 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6225
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
3 days ago I bought a new yamaha upright piano because I haven't played piano in about 9 months and I absolutely love the bright sound it makes! For what it is, it's a great instrument.


A Yamaha U1 - correct? Glad to hear you are playing again !!
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2100616 - 06/10/13 08:41 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
SBP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/12/12
Posts: 258
Personally, I suggest you calm down. I had the opportunity to play a New York B and a Hamburg B at a Steinway retailer, and the differences are negligible. There were minor differences in styling and tone, but nothing a good tech couldn't resolve. I'm sorry, but I really couldn't see that many differences.

And really, in all honesty, it's more of a "grass is greener on the other side" sorta thing, where every other piano you play has more appeal than the one you own, even when you have the best to begin with. Or maybe it's just extra snooty obsessive pianists making stuff up to distance themselves from those uncultured New York Steinway-owning proles and justify the price bump. Who knows?
_________________________
2012 Kawai K3

Top
#2100659 - 06/10/13 10:25 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
May I suggest that you call Steinway Hall-NYC and ask specifically to be connected with their Concert and Artist division. They supplied a very fine S&S-Hamburg-D for the, just ended, Cliburn Competition and you could ask when it would be available for sale.

To hear this particular instrument, go to the following site and scroll down and check the box for Vadym Kholodenko. In all but one of his performances he chose the C&A-Hamburg. In his performance of the Profofiev Concerto No. 3 he chose the C&A-American.

2013 Cliburn Competition Performances

There were two Hamburg and two American S&S-D's for the contestants to choose from. Sampling different performers will allow you to compare the four very diverse and distinct instruments.

During the competition I was following and analyzing the pianos very carefully. I started a thread about the topic and it can be viewed here:

2013 Competition Piano Discussion
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2100664 - 06/10/13 10:37 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
May I suggest that you call Steinway Hall-NYC and ask specifically to be connected with their Concert and Artist division. They supplied a very fine S&S-Hamburg-D for the, just ended, Cliburn Competition and you could ask when it would be available for sale.

To hear this particular instrument, go to the following site and scroll down and check the box for Vadym Kholodenko. In all but one of his performances he chose the C&A-Hamburg. In his performance of the Profofiev Concerto No. 3 he chose the C&A-American.

2013 Cliburn Competition Performances

There were two Hamburg and two American S&S-D's for the contestants to choose from. Sampling different performers will allow you to compare the four very diverse and distinct instruments.

During the competition I was following and analyzing the pianos very carefully. I started a thread about the topic and it can be viewed here:

2013 Competition Piano Discussion


Thank you Marty. As previously mentioned in my previous thread, I put in a call to the Texas S&S dealer asking just this - the sale of the Hamburg piano after the concert.

I appreciate all the responses but out of respect for the Moderator and in agreement that the previous thread is closed for a good reason, I hope we no longer discuss my issues with the current NY D and my eager search for a Hamburg. If anytime I have a new piece of information that I may need advice regarding, I'll ask the Moderator for permission to re-open the topic, or to post a new one. I want to be mindful of this forum and not hog the threads by irritating alot of people with what seems to be a spoiled brat's endless search for the perfect instrument.

I think we have learned from this topic the fact that Steinway does NOT provide an upgrade policy within the Steinway brand. Only from it's off brands of Boston / Essex to the Steinway brand.

Thanks again for everyone who shared their input regarding this topic.

Top
#2100671 - 06/10/13 10:47 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
I think we have learned from this topic the fact that Steinway does NOT provide an upgrade policy within the Steinway brand. Only from it's off brands of Boston / Essex to the Steinway brand.

We have not learned that at all. Not two years ago a former student upgraded from and 'M' to a 'B.' He was granted full cost trade in, for the upgrade, in accordance with the program. The 'M' was two years old. It is not just for their entry brands.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2100673 - 06/10/13 10:48 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Please forgive me for trying to be helpful.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2100677 - 06/10/13 10:52 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Please forgive me for trying to be helpful.



no, no. Don't take it like that. so do you think I should still research some more the upgrade policy? S&S called me directly today and said it only applies for owners of Boston/Essex to upgrade for full value of the trade. Perhaps I should keep perusing that route so I don't have to sell my NY D at such a huge loss?

Top
#2100680 - 06/10/13 10:59 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
The problem is that Steinway does not consider a trade for a "D" with a "D" to be an "upgrade." Especially with the sales costs "here" as opposed to "there." I tried to explain that difference and you just blew it off.

Many of us have tried to help, but all you do is counter with excuses. It's not worth trying to open a closed mind.

I do hope you enjoy the muddle you have created for yourself as that appears to be what you enjoy.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2100683 - 06/10/13 11:04 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Man. You are really testing my patience smile I won't insult you but you are being very rude.

I apologize for not understanding what you were saying regarding import tax, shipping costs etc. I as a buyer would obviously be responsible for those costs being me who wants a piano from out if the country. I was simply stating that base msrp on a hamburg is greater than that of a NY and that's why I thought it would be eligible because its of "greater value".

If you don't like my post, simply skip it please. I kindly ask you quit harassing me. Thank you.

Top
#2100686 - 06/10/13 11:06 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8425
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
no, no. Don't take it like that. so do you think I should still research some more the upgrade policy? S&S called me directly today and said it only applies for owners of Boston/Essex to upgrade for full value of the trade. Perhaps I should keep perusing that route so I don't have to sell my NY D at such a huge loss?

You know, I probably shouldn't get involved in this discussion, but I will... smile

It seems to me that you've already been granted the S&S upgrade opportunity once, when you traded your B for the D; the dealer you dealt with is now closed. I'm thinking there are limits to any such upgrade policy, regardless of the brand/company.

How often are you allowed to do this?

Yes, I think more research on your part is in order, but I'm not so sure you will get better advice than you've gotten here on PW already.

There is a Steinway rep that posts here on occasion, Bob Snyder(?); maybe he could chime in with some advice/comments.

And, FWIW, you already have a top-of-the-line piano; Wow!

Don't worry, be happy!!!! Okay, who was it that made that saying famous. smile

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

Top
#2100696 - 06/10/13 11:47 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Nash. Piano Rescue Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 384
Loc: East Nashville,TN Scottsville...
I know someone on here is probably thinking why did you pay full MSRP price? I bet there aren't many people who could afford those pianos to begin with and I can tell you with certainty that no music personalities would ever do that. I know what happens when we build a shell for a personality... Before I even get paid the manufacturer of whichever high end keyboard or controller has to recognize the endorsement.

These companies either recognize it or the bands wont use their stuff so they get these huge price breaks. I always thought well with several platinum albums they just buy instruments when the truth is the more famous they are the greater the price break.
_________________________
J. Christie
Nashville Piano Rescue
www.NashvillePianoRescue.com
East Nashville
Bowling Green, KY
Scottsville KY.
Chamber of Commerce
Member/Sponsor

Putting inspiration in the hands of area musicians
Through restoration/renovation

Top
#2100701 - 06/11/13 12:03 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Nash. Piano Rescue]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Originally Posted By: Nash. Piano Rescue
I know someone on here is probably thinking why did you pay full MSRP price?


Well, why do some people pay 2.99 for the same gallon of milk they can buy the same brand at walmart for 1.99?

Am I really the only person who has ever purchased a piano at full retail price?

I knew that pianos were negotiable, but some times it can be advantageous not to haggle too much. If you went to a used car dealership and bought a 2000 toyota corola and haggled the living soul out of the dealer from $5000 to $3000 when you have a problem with your engine 2 weeks later, I doubt they would be willing to help.

Steinway is not a used car dealership, so especially with them, I was thinking that while I'm paying MSRP, I would be appreciated as a customer. We will find out soon enough if I am or not. I think if my Steinway dealer was still in business, I would be well taken care of because they always have took care of me pretty well. But now that they are gone, I'm sort of left hanging.
Again, I think if Sherman Clay was still open the manager there would really work with me at making me happy. He would call into corporate and try to make something happen for me to select from Germany. I called him the other day but in reality that was not nice for me and put him in an odd situation because he's not the Steinway dealer anymore. He told me to contact steinway directly.


Edited by noambenhamou (06/11/13 12:12 AM)

Top
#2100725 - 06/11/13 01:19 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3320
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
Man. You are really testing my patience smile


You are testing ours, too....
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

Top
#2100731 - 06/11/13 01:41 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Why are you so angry Beethoven? Take a deep breath, do some yoga, play some mozart. It's good for you smile

Top
#2100737 - 06/11/13 02:02 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3320
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
Why are you so angry Beethoven? Take a deep breath, do some yoga, play some mozart. It's good for you smile


I'm not angry. Just annoyed. And somewhat perplexed.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

Top
#2100739 - 06/11/13 02:09 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Dave Ferris]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1728
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
Through the replies and PM's I have been provided phone numbers for very reputable technicians
3) Steinways in general need about 1 year for the soundboard to "drop". Only then, the true nature of the instrument will be presented.


If you're in LA, I hope the names-Richard Davenport, Ed Whiting, Alan Cate, Ron Elliott, or Teri Meredyth were mentioned. smile


For the record, it's Ed Whitting- apologies Ed. blush .

As the great jazz pianist/composer/bandleader Toshiko Akiyoshi once said-all we have as jazz artists is our name. The least someone writing about us can do is get it right.. wink

Originally Posted By: Rickster
Don't worry, be happy!!!! Okay, who was it that made that saying famous. smile


That would be Bobby McFerrin.. cool And although I'm sure he's thankful for the wide popular appeal that DWBH brought, he'd much rather be appreciated for his more serious musical endeavors...which are quite numerous.

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled programming.. smile
_________________________
http://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP5, CP4, Nord Piano 2
RCF TT08A & TT22A speakers


Top
#2100746 - 06/11/13 02:26 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Hmmmm. I don't know how to help you with this. Perhaps some Bach?

I think you are annoyed because I'm complaining about a NY Steinway D and you feel like I should appreciate this fine instrument and worship it rather than complain how I'm unhappy with it.

A piano is a "want". Not a "need". All of us who own a piano have a luxury that is considered a "spare" or "excess" of money. Whether you have a used upright piano or a brand new bechstein, we are all guilty of having excess of resource to some extent.

The part that is irritating you is that my funds afford me a an expensive piano. I can't make this sound not snobbish but there are probably many people here with expensive pianos. In my personal opinion any piano over 15k is excessive.

But we all I think have passion for music and the instrument which acts as a proxy for producing the sound, so we all take our excess resources to afford this luxury.

This excess in luxury may not be as simple as it may seam. Some may buy a piano on payments, some may choose to not own a car and ride a bicycle in order to afford this luxury. Whatever the person's personal means are, we are all making a stretch and a sacrifice.

In my case, a piano is one of the most important things. So whatever most people save and save for a down payment for a house, I put a piano above a house as a priority. In other words, I would be happy living in a box as long as I can have my dream piano.

So please do not assume that I haven't scraped and saved every penny while friends are blowing money on drinks, drugs, gambling and meaningless things while I saved for my childhood dream piano. So excuse me if I am the one slightly frustrated because I have played steinways that were better and that was my expectation in a brand new one. Hence the reason for my posts. Should I have gone for an older D? Is there a quality control issue? Asking for opinions...

Can you understand this? Perhaps a bit of background could have helped before I posted that I bought a new D and I don't like it and for that I apologize.



Edited by noambenhamou (06/11/13 02:27 AM)

Top
#2100794 - 06/11/13 04:51 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Dara Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 1028
Loc: west coast island, canada
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou

A piano is a "want". Not a "need".
All of us who own a piano have a luxury that is considered a "spare" or "excess" of money. Whether you have a used upright piano or a brand new bechstein, we are all guilty of having excess of resource to some extent.


hello n ...

it's wonderful when piano becomes a want, a desire ...
and those that really want it
it becomes a need
sometime or other

what's with the guilt ?

Top
#2100872 - 06/11/13 10:43 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
jazzyprof Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2621
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou

But we all I think have passion for music and the instrument which acts as a proxy for producing the sound, so we all take our excess resources to afford this luxury.

Well said! I am reminded of Perri Knize's book about a piano odyssey, Grand Obsession. Indeed if you haven't read it yet, you owe it to yourself to do so immediately! Perri posts here as piqué.

See also http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2084784/1.html
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

Top
#2100876 - 06/11/13 10:55 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Minnesota Marty]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6225
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
I think we have learned from this topic the fact that Steinway does NOT provide an upgrade policy within the Steinway brand. Only from it's off brands of Boston / Essex to the Steinway brand.

We have not learned that at all. Not two years ago a former student upgraded from and 'M' to a 'B.' He was granted full cost trade in, for the upgrade, in accordance with the program. The 'M' was two years old. It is not just for their entry brands.


I did a quick search on the web. The vast majority of sites discuss the upgrade policy specifically as it relates to Boston and Essex. Other sites refer to "Steinway-designed" pianos (which is a little vague) and only two sites I found referred specifically to all three brands. And then there's the guy from the Steinway corporate office who told the OP by phone that the policy only applied to Boston and Essex. Quite frankly, I don't give a rip what Steinway's policy is - because I'm sure it is ultimately intended to benefit the dealer rather than the customer. Nor should we chastise the OP for believing what he was told by the Steinway rep. But yes - it is useful to know that the policy does, in fact, apply to real Steinways purchased through an authorized Steinway dealer. It should be pointed out, however, that the trade up option must be exercised with a specific time period after the initial purchase (seems to be 10 years, but I've also seen five years mentioned).
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2100882 - 06/11/13 11:06 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6225
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
Hmmmm. So excuse me if I am the one slightly frustrated because I have played steinways that were better and that was my expectation in a brand new one. Hence the reason for my posts. Should I have gone for an older D? Is there a quality control issue? Asking for opinions...


Probably the best thing to do now is sell your D (which I know you are working on, and will probably take a few months), and TAKE YOUR TIME is searching for either a new or older instrument. Eventually you'll find one you fall in love with - and it might not even be a Steinway. In the meantime, learn some new repertoire on your Yamaha. smile

And remember, it sometimes takes awhile for an instrument to find its voice. "New from the factory" doesn't always equate to "perfect." Sometimes it takes some work to fully reveal the inherent quality of an instrument.


Edited by carey (06/11/13 11:13 AM)
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2100901 - 06/11/13 12:24 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
LJC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1516
Loc: New York
How is it possible to spend over a hundred grand on a piano and not be happy with it? Is it that Mr. N bought a model D without trying it first? If he did test it and liked it could it be that the room it is in now has bad acoustics? Further why all the speculation on Steinway's trade up policy without anyone calling Steinway in New York to clarify? When I bought my Hamburg Model D (pre-owned) from Steinway Hall I was told it could be traded up for a piano of greater value. So if I wanted one that costs more (because its newer) I should be given full purchase price trade in which by now would be a great deal for S&S. Since there is no model E it means I can trade a D for a D. Since I have no desire to trade it in this is all academic. BTW while I own a Hamburg I have played lots of NY D's I would be perfectly content with. The model D's do vary so it is important indeed to find one that suits you before you buy it.

Top
#2100905 - 06/11/13 12:30 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
laguna_greg Online   sleepy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1201
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Hi Noam,

"... while friends are blowing money on drinks, drugs, gambling and meaningless things..."

Don't you dare let those people anywhere near your new piano!

I have to applaud your passion and zeal for all this. I feel exactly the same way myself, and I never apologize to anybody for it. People who look down on me because of it don't get invited to my concerts.

xoxo
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2100907 - 06/11/13 12:35 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14120
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Laguna:

Sharing same. thumb

Quote:
When I bought my Hamburg Model D (pre-owned) from Steinway Hall I was told it could be traded up for a piano of greater value.


Really? I would be curious what that could have been?
Why were representations made to "trade up" from a 9' Hamburg?
To "what" ?

Curious....

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

Top
#2100909 - 06/11/13 12:39 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1717
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou


...If I had to so it all over again I would have played hard ball with the dealer. They would have no problem sleeping at night if you paid them 100k for a B. just like most car salesmen would have no problem selling a new Honda accord for 10k over msrp if there was an idiot dumb enough to pay it. ...



Why do people often think that a buyer has no responsibility for informing himself/herself about a possible purchase and taking reasonable steps to protect his/her own interest?
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

Top
#2100911 - 06/11/13 12:41 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: LJC]
laguna_greg Online   sleepy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1201
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Originally Posted By: LJC
How is it possible to spend over a hundred grand on a piano and not be happy with it? Is it that Mr. N bought a model D without trying it first?


What can I say? Youth is wasted on the wrong people? Inexperience leads everybody to make mistakes? That includes you and me?

Originally Posted By: LJC
Further why all the speculation on Steinway's trade up policy without anyone calling Steinway in New York to clarify?


If you'll read all the OP's posts, you'll see that he did in fact call the New York office many times to discus this and other concerns. He's been very forthcoming about the conversation.

A lot of you are being very harsh with (if you'll forgive me Noam) a just-barely-30-year-old kid . This is unwarranted and says a lot more about you than him. Lighten up.


Edited by laguna_greg (06/11/13 12:42 PM)
Edit Reason: oops
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2100913 - 06/11/13 12:43 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: LJC]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6225
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: LJC
Further why all the speculation on Steinway's trade up policy without anyone calling Steinway in New York to clarify?


That's the point. The OP did call Steinway in New York (the corporate offices/factory in Astoria) and they told him the policy only applied to Boston and Essex pianos. Go figure.
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2100916 - 06/11/13 12:50 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10349
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Quote:
A lot of you are being very harsh with (if you'll forgive me Noam) a just-barely-30-year-old kid . This is unwarranted and says a lot more about you than him. Lighten up.


I have always thought that the Hobbit age of maturity (33) was a very worldly-wise gesture by Tolkien.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

Top
#2100923 - 06/11/13 01:03 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Norbert]
jazzyprof Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2621
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Laguna:

Sharing same. thumb

Quote:
When I bought my Hamburg Model D (pre-owned) from Steinway Hall I was told it could be traded up for a piano of greater value.


Really? I would be curious what that could have been?
Why were representations made to "trade up" from a 9' Hamburg?
To "what" ?

Curious....

Norbert


To this, perhaps.

Steinway Alma-Tadema
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

Top
#2100927 - 06/11/13 01:09 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Piano*Dad]
Karl Watson Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 04/20/11
Posts: 295
Naom and friends:

The very suggestion that S&S would consider the production of the German house as superior in ANY way to its Astoria pianos would be company heresy. Their brains would explode.

Any suggestion of it at the 72nd Street locale will signal the end of one's visit. One might use the word "prefer" but to label the NY pianos as inferior is fight'n words, eyes too close together and monosyllabic grunting will ensue.


Karl Watson,
Staten Island, NY

Top
#2100928 - 06/11/13 01:10 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: jazzyprof]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6225
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: jazzyprof

To this, perhaps.

Steinway Alma-Tadema


Another example of "putting lipstick on a pig" grin

(And no, I'm not equating Steinways to swine).
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2100929 - 06/11/13 01:13 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Karl Watson]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6225
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Karl Watson
Naom and friends:

The very suggestion that S&S would consider the production of the German house as superior in ANY way to its Astoria pianos would be company heresy. Their brains would explode.

Any suggestion of it at the 72nd Street locale will signal the end of one's visit. One might use the word "prefer" but to label the NY pianos as inferior is fight'n words, eyes too close together and monosyllabic grunting will ensue.


ha Then perhaps "they" shouldn't charge so much for the German built instruments !!
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2100936 - 06/11/13 01:20 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Karl Watson]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Originally Posted By: Karl Watson
Naom and friends:

The very suggestion that S&S would consider the production of the German house as superior in ANY way to its Astoria pianos would be company heresy. Their brains would explode.

Any suggestion of it at the 72nd Street locale will signal the end of one's visit. One might use the word "prefer" but to label the NY pianos as inferior is fight'n words, eyes too close together and monosyllabic grunting will ensue.


Karl Watson,
Staten Island, NY


Thanks everyone for posting. I have read everything carefully.

Mr. Watson, and whoever else would like to jump in...

Do you think that on the other side of the world, in Germany, the Hamburg side of Steinway is as sensitive to the NYC models?
For example, would they care at the hamburg factory if you mentioned that you like the NYC Steinway sound better? Would the dealers in Europe resist ordering a person from Germany a NYC Steinway?

Top
#2100938 - 06/11/13 01:24 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: carey]
jazzyprof Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2621
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Originally Posted By: carey

ha Then perhaps "they" shouldn't charge so much for the German built instruments !!

If you were to try to buy a NY Steinway D in Germany you'd most likely pay Hamburg D prices for it. Shipping ain't free!
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

Top
#2100939 - 06/11/13 01:28 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Rank Piano Amateur]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3847
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Rank Piano Amateur
Way off topic: who out there remembers (or knows) where "Get it, got it, good!" comes from (besides coming from Marty's post)? Or, more accurately, "Get it?" "Got it." "Good."

At least one place where it's from. . . .



In b4 lock. For the record, Danny Kaye and Basil Rathbone in "The Court Jester."

_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

Top
#2100941 - 06/11/13 01:33 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Piano*Dad]
laguna_greg Online   sleepy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1201
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
[quote]

I have always thought that the Hobbit age of maturity (33) was a very worldly-wise gesture by Tolkien.


Thanks for that, Dad! I really think it's more like 40. You've calmed down a bit, you have some experience under your belt and lived, you still look good naked (one hopes), but you are not so drunk on the Wine of Life (not the I'm running it down or anything but...)

My 40s were my best decade. But I'm starting to think that my 50s are going to be even better than so, go figure!

Youth is wasted on the wrong people. And it's overrated. Like I said.


Edited by laguna_greg (06/11/13 01:38 PM)
Edit Reason: oops
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2100942 - 06/11/13 01:34 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Cinnamonbear]
laguna_greg Online   sleepy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1201
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Cinn , I LOVE THAT MOVIE!!!
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2100946 - 06/11/13 01:38 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Karl Watson]
laguna_greg Online   sleepy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1201
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Originally Posted By: Karl Watson


Their brains would explode.



Eeewww, Exploding Steinway Brains. Eeewwww.

That image is now tattooed on the backs of my eyelids, Karl. I'll be scarred forever. And it's your fault.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2100947 - 06/11/13 01:43 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Bob Newbie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 1549
the brew that is true! smile

Top
#2100953 - 06/11/13 01:53 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
LJC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1516
Loc: New York
Norbert - To a newer model D, which is a trade up in price.

Carey - you are right Mr. N did say NY said only from Boston or Essex however that is not what I was told by NY S&S and they were quite clear about that.

Top
#2100957 - 06/11/13 02:03 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
KurtZ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/13/10
Posts: 852
Loc: The Heart of Screenland
Luckily, Mike Carr and Turnadot are on hiatus or their heads would have exploded from these two threads. I don't know which is worse, that this may still very well be a put on, or that it's all on the up and up and this dilettante can engage this forum to this extent. Wait! I'm feeling a weird pressure in my cran...
_________________________
I just wanted to be just "a" guy. That's enough of a life.

Top
#2100960 - 06/11/13 02:14 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: carey]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: Karl Watson
The very suggestion that S&S would consider the production of the German house as superior in ANY way to its Astoria pianos would be company heresy. Their brains would explode.

ha Then perhaps "they" shouldn't charge so much for the German built instruments !!

Maybe you should compare the price to the "other" German S&S.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2100977 - 06/11/13 03:06 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: Karl Watson
The very suggestion that S&S would consider the production of the German house as superior in ANY way to its Astoria pianos would be company heresy. Their brains would explode.

ha Then perhaps "they" shouldn't charge so much for the German built instruments !!

Maybe you should compare the price to the "other" German S&S.


Marty. I find it a bit difficult to find a proper quote for a hamburg D.
I found on the website that has book values for Steinway that they are around 160k including taxes etc. A Steinway dealer said 190k not including a piano bench or taxes.

I think I will call the uk and find out for myself instead of relying on these "sources".

Top
#2101013 - 06/11/13 04:09 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14120
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
New Hamburgs can only be bought through your local, authorized Steinway dealer.
You make the deal with your local dealer first, then select at factory later if like.
Nobody in Germany will sell you directly and ship piano to where you live.
To my understanding, Steinway is very strict with this.

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (06/11/13 05:36 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

Top
#2101015 - 06/11/13 04:14 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: Karl Watson
The very suggestion that S&S would consider the production of the German house as superior in ANY way to its Astoria pianos would be company heresy. Their brains would explode.

ha Then perhaps "they" shouldn't charge so much for the German built instruments !!

Maybe you should compare the price to the "other" German S&S.


Marty. I find it a bit difficult to find a proper quote for a hamburg D.
I found on the website that has book values for Steinway that they are around 160k including taxes etc. A Steinway dealer said 190k not including a piano bench or taxes.

I think I will call the uk and find out for myself instead of relying on these "sources".

I was responding to Carey about the cost of the "other German S&S." There is more than one, you know? They are considerably more expensive than the brand you are considering.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2101023 - 06/11/13 04:33 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Rank Piano Amateur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/07
Posts: 1753
Thanks for the clip from the Court Jester!

The chalice from the palace holds the potion with the poison. . . .

How do we tell which chalice holds the brew that is true?




Edited by Rank Piano Amateur (06/11/13 04:34 PM)

Top
#2101038 - 06/11/13 04:56 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Rank Piano Amateur]
Karl Watson Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 04/20/11
Posts: 295
Friends:

Fantasia or not, the tone of these contributions is streets ahead of the last go round. Hats off, ladies and gentlemen.

Although it's rather far off topic, the question about reactions of the Hamburg outfit to one's possible preference for an Astoria piano. Given my impression of German excellence and the attitude of those that create and sustain it, the phrase about water off a duck's back comes to mind.

Look, Naom, if you're absolutely DETERMINED to have a Hamburg Steinway D, you've already sorted out the ways to find one stateside. I think that I mentioned before that the London dealer has a nice atmosphere and could make the arrangements. BUT, if I were in the market for a new HAMBURG D, I'd visit the Fabbrini atelier in Pescara, Abruzzo. Mr. Fabbrini's Hamburg Ds represent, at least to these old, jaded ears, a kind-of Platonic ideal REALISED here on earth.

If dynamic range is essential, you'll be devastated by what Fr. Fabbrini achieves. Please trust me about this.

Karl Watson,
Staten Island, NY

Top
#2101090 - 06/11/13 06:22 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Karl Watson]
jazzyprof Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2621
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Originally Posted By: Karl Watson
BUT, if I were in the market for a new HAMBURG D, I'd visit the Fabbrini atelier in Pescara, Abruzzo. Mr. Fabbrini's Hamburg Ds represent, at least to these old, jaded ears, a kind-of Platonic ideal REALISED here on earth.

If dynamic range is essential, you'll be devastated by what Fr. Fabbrini achieves. Please trust me about this.

Indeed, they do sound amazing, even on YouTube:
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

Top
#2101099 - 06/11/13 06:29 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Carbonblob Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/13
Posts: 260
Loc: Los Angeles, Ca.
........Marty. I find it a bit difficult to find a proper quote for a hamburg D.
I found on the website that has book values for Steinway that they are around 160k including taxes etc. A Steinway dealer said 190k not including a piano bench or taxes...

Dang....are you telling me I could have bought an S&S D for what I paid for my Kawai last month? I never should have believed the dealer when he told me those agraffes and wheels were solid gold and not brass. I feel so used and stupid now. I hate it when that happens.....blob
_________________________
KAWAI RX-3 BLAK
YAMAHA GRANTOUCH GT1

Top
#2101101 - 06/11/13 06:33 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
dynamobt Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 646
Loc: NH
Always enjoy hearing Mr. Pollini play. Thanks for posting that!
_________________________
1918 Mason & Hamlin BB





Top
#2101119 - 06/11/13 07:06 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Blob,

The listing in the 2013 Spring "Buyers Guide" indicates the following:

New York-D_____MSRP - $148,400 -- SMP - $142,460
Hamburg-D_____MSRP - $163,200 -- SMP - $163,200

NYC prices are quoted for Polished Ebony to match the Hamburg finish.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2101130 - 06/11/13 07:36 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14120
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
I can in all honesty say that a top 9' Hamburg is a tough piano to beat.

I've seen some that come close but not many.

Some that did or even exceeded were C.Bechstein [few] Fazioli [several] Estonia [some] Sauter [several] Bosis [some] Grotrian [several] Bluethner [some] Schimmel [few] and Steingraeber [all]

Irony is that by paying more, personal preferance or "ranking" doesn't seem to go up.

Worst scenario: paying LOTS - and still not satisfied...

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

Top
#2101145 - 06/11/13 08:04 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Norbert]
laguna_greg Online   sleepy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1201
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
H Norbert,

I remember that, in the 1980s, my old music department in college bought one new directly from the London showroom and had it shipped directly to the campus loading dock. Could it be different for educational institutions?

And I know two other people, private parties who bought from dealers in the 1960s, one in London, and one on the continent, and had them shipped home to the states.

Have things changed that much?
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2101154 - 06/11/13 08:13 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Greg,

With the two pianos from the 1960's, were they used in the home for some time before being shipped to the US?

With the College, did they purchase through the A.S.S. program? For private sales in the US, the purchase of the Hamburgs is always through an S&S dealer, even if selected at a showroom, or the factory, in Europe. To do otherwise doesn't make business sense.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2101200 - 06/11/13 09:11 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: jazzyprof]
Almaviva Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 585
Loc: Richmond, Virginia
Lovely piano playing. Fabbrini, Schmabbrini, Pollini can make any piano sound great.

Top
#2101284 - 06/12/13 01:18 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
jazzyprof Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2621
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou

I think I will call the uk and find out for myself instead of relying on these "sources".

You might also want to talk to PW member Serge Marinkovic. Apparently he bought his Hamburg D new in London and had it shipped to the US.
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post2100768
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

Top
#2101475 - 06/12/13 01:33 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Minnesota Marty]
laguna_greg Online   sleepy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1201
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Hi Marty,

I don't know how my old department arranged the terms of sale. I do know that the showroom shipped directly to them from London, and our department tech's put it together and did all the prep work. Four of our faculty went for a week to pick it out (what a punishment). I believe that the university purchasing agent negotiated all the terms before the faculty went to London.

As to the others, the one guy bought it new in London off the showroom floor. But I think he might have arranged the shipping himself. The other I don't know anything about the shipping but the buyer, an American and a non-resident of France, did buy it new from a dealer and brought it to America with her.

So, wow. You can't just go to London today and buy a Hamburg and have it shipped here? How parental and Machiavellian. Are the Astoria and Hamburg shops not under the same corporate umbrella? Is the American division trying to increase sales of their own domestic product? Are they just avoiding the comparison?

I'm so glad certain people aren't present to have their cranial pressures build up right in front of us. That image is still tattooed on the backs of my eyelids, oh my...
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2101500 - 06/12/13 02:16 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Hi Greg,

I don't see why someone can't make a purchase while physically in Europe and then make all of the shipping, duty, tax, and customs arrangements by themselves. There would be no way that S&S could stop you.

However, if you are purchasing in the US, you must order a piano through any local Steinway dealership. You certainly have the option to travel abroad to make your specific selection, however. The thing that is restricted would be for a North American Steinway Dealership to make all of the export arrangements from Europe to the USA without running it through Steinway Corporate. That makes sense to me.

I don't think it is nearly as restrictive as you are making it out. Steinway is merely assigning their products to be marketed in specific locations. In the piano universe, that is standard practice.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2101501 - 06/12/13 02:16 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14120
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
Have things changed that much


Very much so.

Many folks like to combine their European holidays with piano buying opportunity. Especially related to Hamburg Steinways...

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

Top
#2101516 - 06/12/13 02:41 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Plowboy Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 2280
Loc: Huntington Beach, CA
They are also having shortages in inventory in Hamburg. Maybe that has something to do with it. Steinway says they've lost sales because Hamburg is not producing enough product right now.
_________________________
Gary Schenk

Top
#2101521 - 06/12/13 02:47 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
I'm sure that Astoria would love to pick up the slack! There should be no reason that the NY facility couldn't build the Hamburg models. Boy, would that set the piano world on its head!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2101572 - 06/12/13 04:11 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Rank Piano Amateur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/07
Posts: 1753
How come no Steinway people have weighed in on this, or did I miss Bob Snyder somewhere? It seems to me that this thread is a whole lot of speculation, with no one quite certain that the issue is real nor how to figure out whether it is and, if it is, what to suggest (if anything).

I am confused about what to think. . . .I have to say that I find it hard to believe that someone who can afford a new 9' Steinway should be having problems like this. There must be an expert piano technician, experienced at dealing with the very exacting tastes of top performers, who can make a 9' concert grand piano sound the way its owner (or prospective owner) wants it to. After all, concert pianists demand different things of their pianos. . . . Always accepting, of course, that the issue is real in the first place.

Top
#2101582 - 06/12/13 04:34 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Rank Piano Amateur]
Plowboy Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 2280
Loc: Huntington Beach, CA
Originally Posted By: Rank Piano Amateur
It seems to me that this thread is a whole lot of speculation, with no one quite certain that the issue is real nor how to figure out whether it is and, if it is, what to suggest (if anything).


Well, it IS the Internets.
_________________________
Gary Schenk

Top
#2101584 - 06/12/13 04:36 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
RPA,

That's exactly what we can't figure out either. I'm sure that Mr. Snyder would prefer to not officially wade into this morass. He may very well be as exasperated as are we.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2101590 - 06/12/13 04:45 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Steinway corporate is well aware of this thread. I know this for a fact. But they haven't contacted me in the interest of good customer service. Not a peep. I would get better service at Walmart. Bob Snyder has called the manager of the store that sold me this piano regarding my posts. I have heard from other dealers as well that they know who I am.


I can see how it may seem like I'm an happy customer that's just trying to bash steinways product but I assure you that is not the case. I was honestly seeking advice on which hamburg I should get- new or used? C&A or not.

I'm displeased with my current instrument and although I was a bit extreme to call it junk, and for that I do apologize, what I mean is that it's not doing what I want and expected. If I haven't paid so much for it, it would be a whole different story. But when I buy the best piano in the world, I expect dynamic range and long sustain.

Like I have mentioned, the NY models can indeed achieve this but only from older ones such as the 1998 I had as a loaner. It just goes to show that these instruments may need time to build up to themselves. But it's a big "may" with 140k. Should I really wait 2 years to see IF the piano comes alive after 2 years? Big gamble I'm not willing to make.

My only criticism of Steinway NY besides the fact that they haven't even attempted to contact me and figure out a way to make us all happy is the fact that they rely on the dealers to finish prepping the piano. Out of the factory, they only do a very basic voicing.

The main issue is now they have to trust the dealer to properly prep the instrument. Something that does not happen in alot of cases from the sources I have.

Also, the selection room in NY is pointless unless the D's are concert prepped which they absolutely are not!!! Does this make sense??



Edited by noambenhamou (06/12/13 04:59 PM)

Top
#2101639 - 06/12/13 06:43 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14120
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
But when I buy the best piano in the world, I expect dynamic range and long sustain.


One does't have to own "best piano in the world" to get this.

Customers paying a fraction of what you paid, deserve it.

And are getting it....

Luckily, it has nothing to do with New York versus Hamburg Steinway..

Norbert wink
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

Top
#2101655 - 06/12/13 07:05 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Plowboy]
Thrill Science Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 513
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Plowboy
They are also having shortages in inventory in Hamburg. Maybe that has something to do with it. Steinway says they've lost sales because Hamburg is not producing enough product right now.


No! The issue is that Hamburg Steinways aren't "seasoned" for North American climates. :-)
_________________________
Robert Swirsky
Thrill Science, Inc.

Top
#2101658 - 06/12/13 07:14 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Noambenhamou,

You state your opinions as if they are facts. They are your opinions and may or may not be shared by other members of the forum.

Here is an example:

Originally Posted By: noambenhamou - 6/12/13
Like I have mentioned, the NY models can indeed achieve this but only from older ones such as the 1998 I had as a loaner.

Every possible solution has been offered to you but you seem to think that somehow we can kiss it and make it all better. You dismiss the wealth of information and experience offered by some of the most respected technicians and rebuilders that are available anywhere.

You selected the piano, it is not our responsibility to rectify your displeasure.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2101659 - 06/12/13 07:16 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Thrill Science]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
Originally Posted By: Plowboy
They are also having shortages in inventory in Hamburg. Maybe that has something to do with it. Steinway says they've lost sales because Hamburg is not producing enough product right now.


No! The issue is that Hamburg Steinways aren't "seasoned" for North American climates. :-)

I need to learn about gray market Hamburgs. laugh
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2101663 - 06/12/13 07:24 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Noambenhamou,

You state your opinions as if they are facts. They are your opinions and may or may not be shared by other members of the forum.

Here is an example:

Originally Posted By: noambenhamou - 6/13/13
Like I have mentioned, the NY models can indeed achieve this but only from older ones such as the 1998 I had as a loaner.

Every possible solution has been offered to you but you seem to think that somehow we can kiss it and make it all better. You dismiss the wealth of information and experience offered by some of the most respected technicians and rebuilders that are available anywhere.

You selected the piano, it is not our responsibility to rectify your displeasure.



Did I say it was your responsibility?
I did not dismiss any information. I am gathering all information and learning from everyone's feedback. Thank you all! Truly!

Top
#2101669 - 06/12/13 07:34 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Noambenhamou,

You state your opinions as if they are facts. They are your opinions and may or may not be shared by other members of the forum.

Here is an example:

Originally Posted By: noambenhamou - 6/13/13
Like I have mentioned, the NY models can indeed achieve this but only from older ones such as the 1998 I had as a loaner.

Every possible solution has been offered to you but you seem to think that somehow we can kiss it and make it all better. You dismiss the wealth of information and experience offered by some of the most respected technicians and rebuilders that are available anywhere.

You selected the piano, it is not our responsibility to rectify your displeasure.



Did I say it was your responsibility?
I did not dismiss any information. I am gathering all information and learning from everyone's feedback. Thank you all! Truly!

Then exactly what are you trying to accomplish and what do you need to hear that hasn't been said time and time again?
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2101677 - 06/12/13 07:42 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Oh, I'm all set brother! I completely got all the info I need but people keep posting replies...

I appreciate all the replies, but I welcome everyone to stop posting on this thread. I guess you can ask the moderator to close this thread if it's keeping you up at night and bothering you so much. But as long as people keep replying, ill keep reading. Perhaps there is some new information from someone new?

Thanks again for everyone who replied.

Top
#2101680 - 06/12/13 07:48 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN

_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2101696 - 06/12/13 08:14 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
mautique Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/05/10
Posts: 78
Loc: CA, USA
The Steinway dealer didn't mention anything about upgrade policy when I bought my B in 2010. They took my 22-year old M back which I bought new and gave me full credit for what I paid then plus $2,000. I am not saying I got a good deal, just saying what happened.
As for Hamburg vs New York, I have always liked the Hamburg more. I grew up overseas and have not played any NY Steinway until I came to this country, and I was frankly quite disappointed with most of them, pretty much echoing what Noam said. Certainly the NY Steinway are decent pianos but tonally, I think they are mostly inferior to the Hamburg ones, not to mention the workmanship, not as meticulously made and prepared as the Hamburg ones. But I do think the newer New York ones are getting much much better. I like my B, and tonally, it is really not so much different from the Bs I tried at Steinway Hall in London last year. On the Bs I played I prefer the last few base notes of the Hamburg, with slightly more warmth to it. Still I think the Hamburg ones look more pretty! Hey, would like to have both at home someday.
_________________________
2010 Steinway B #586826

Top
#2101701 - 06/12/13 08:22 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
mautique,

I think you got a fabulous "trade in" on a 22 y/o 'M' !!!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2101727 - 06/12/13 09:31 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1912
Loc: Philadelphia area
It's my understanding that Steinway Corp. intends for Hamburg to supply Europe and Asian markets while New York supplies North and South Americas markets.

Top
#2101746 - 06/12/13 10:06 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Dave B,

So true. It was nothing more than fantasy conjecture about the Hamburgs being built in Astoria.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2101931 - 06/13/13 11:28 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513


Thanks again for everyone's support.


Edited by noambenhamou (06/13/13 12:45 PM)

Top
#2101940 - 06/13/13 12:05 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Noam,

It is good to hear that everything is starting to come to a resolution. I wish you well, and I do hope that you find your perfect piano.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2101958 - 06/13/13 12:40 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Rickster]
BrainCramp Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/12
Posts: 254
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Rickster

All I'm saying is that the OP deserves a second chance. We all can get rather irritable and feisty at times. It's part of being human. smile

Rick
Or, if the OP is by chance an Israeli, it's all part of what Israelis call "Israeliness" - brutally direct, excitable, and prone to arguing any point to death. In person, the typical Israeli's warmth makes it all forgivable or even amusing for us Americans. But on an Internet forum, it can be problematic.

I've had fun watching Noam jump down people's throats on the prior thread and seeing him backpedal on this one to no avail - other posters are still offended.

I long ago lost track of which piano Noam has, almost has, likes, doesn't like, and wants to trade in.

At this point I feel bad for him. He has a piano he doesn't want and a bunch of people on PW who are mad at him. He's a babe in the woods on this forum. Go easy on him, guys.

Top
#2101965 - 06/13/13 12:57 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: BrainCramp]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Originally Posted By: BrainCramp
Originally Posted By: Rickster

All I'm saying is that the OP deserves a second chance. We all can get rather irritable and feisty at times. It's part of being human. smile

Rick
Or, if the OP is by chance an Israeli, it's all part of what Israelis call "Israeliness" - brutally direct, excitable, and prone to arguing any point to death. In person, the typical Israeli's warmth makes it all forgivable or even amusing for us Americans. But on an Internet forum, it can be problematic.

I've had fun watching Noam jump down people's throats on the prior thread and seeing him backpedal on this one to no avail - other posters are still offended.

I long ago lost track of which piano Noam has, almost has, likes, doesn't like, and wants to trade in.

At this point I feel bad for him. He has a piano he doesn't want and a bunch of people on PW who are mad at him. He's a babe in the woods on this forum. Go easy on him, guys.


Hahaha Brian. Ill take this as a compliment smile

Top
#2101971 - 06/13/13 01:10 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
BrainCramp Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/12
Posts: 254
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou


Hahaha Brian. Ill take this as a compliment smile

Absolutely!

Is there a Steinway dealer in Israel? Maybe you could call him up and talk it over Israeli-style (that is, by yelling at each other) and come up with an action plan for dealing with the Americans and Germans. wink

Top
#2101972 - 06/13/13 01:12 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14120
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
To any reader the story seems a bit of "brand fixation"
Here are the reasons:

If I'd own a 9' Steinway and am not happy with it:

1] would go get the best tech trying to help me

2] explore all other possibilities including "lateral exchange" or "trading down" to a 7' grand I'd love.

Thinking that most of the issue has to do with communication of sorts - not piano itself.

Outside that, I would look for an entirely different instrument hoping the 9' concert could be sold or consigned at a price allowing me doing another choice.

With so many fantastic choices out there today, I wouldn't marry my ex-bride's German sister.

But find new love entirely elsewhere.

[True story...]

Norbert grin


Edited by Norbert (06/13/13 01:16 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

Top
#2101977 - 06/13/13 01:20 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Norbert]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6225
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Norbert

With so many fantastic choices out there today, I wouldn't marry my ex-bride's German sister.


Good one !! ha
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2101984 - 06/13/13 01:31 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Ach Norman, die Deutsche schwester ist nichts wie die Amerikanische schwester.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2101985 - 06/13/13 01:33 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Norbert]
Carbonblob Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/13
Posts: 260
Loc: Los Angeles, Ca.
Norbert, great post.....and don't forget to tip your waitress on the way out.....night.

ps......variety is the spice of life. I would suggest getting off the SS band wagon as you suggest and start playing all the great models everyone here is suggesting. I recall you recently helped a memeber. You suggested he try a make and model you thought they might like and now they own it! Beating a dead horse at this point, poor horse!
_________________________
KAWAI RX-3 BLAK
YAMAHA GRANTOUCH GT1

Top
#2101998 - 06/13/13 01:55 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Not so fast there smile I have tried concert grands of the other manufacturers. Not all but some. Bousendorffer, bechstein, the new yamaha everyone is raving about.

I have never heard a sweeter sound that of a Steinway. Any Steinway whether it be NY or Hamburg. But that is just my personal taste and we have a saying in Hebrew: "regarding taste and smell, there is no debate".

I know it looks like by my discontent with my D that I may be bashing Steinway and I do not wish for this thread to go that route. On the contrary, I love the Steinway sound!!!! I just think my D can be much better and for the price I paid, I feel entitled to get the best - for me. Since they are all different between eachother, and have two seporate flavors - that of hamburg and that of NY, there is one out there truly for me.

Top
#2101999 - 06/13/13 01:56 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14120
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
Ach Norman, die Deutsche schwester ist nichts wie die Amerikanische schwester.


Perhaps, but "Amerikaner lieben Deutsche Schwester".....

Always wondered "why".

Norbert blush
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

Top
#2102001 - 06/13/13 02:01 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14120
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
I have never heard a sweeter sound that of a Steinway. Any Steinway whether it be NY or Hamburg.


VERY different sounding pianos, both nice.
Tried Mason Hamlin by chance?

Now with regards to "sweetness of sound", tried....ah better stop.

Norbert grin
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

Top
#2102008 - 06/13/13 02:07 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Norbert]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
I have never heard a sweeter sound that of a Steinway. Any Steinway whether it be NY or Hamburg.


VERY different sounding pianos, both nice.
Tried Mason Hamlin by chance?

Now with regards to "sweetness of sound", tried....ah better stop.

Norbert grin



Yes. Mason Hamlin is actually makes an amazing sound! The action wasn't my favorite and that makes a difference.

I've been thinking about it alot, and in my opinion a great piano has a very special relationship between the sound and the touch. In other words, the touch felt by pressing the keys should somehow reflect the sound produced.

To simplify, if possible, a brighter piano should have lighter action. And mellowed piano have heavier and deeper action. This is my opinion for myself - that's what I like. Not pushing this on anyone.

Top
#2102094 - 06/13/13 05:17 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Carbonblob Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/13
Posts: 260
Loc: Los Angeles, Ca.
noam,

fair enough.....blob
_________________________
KAWAI RX-3 BLAK
YAMAHA GRANTOUCH GT1

Top
#2102120 - 06/13/13 06:04 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
LJC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1516
Loc: New York
Mr. N. Did you or did you not test your model D before you bought it?

Top
#2102137 - 06/13/13 06:53 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21304
Loc: Oakland
There is not that much difference between Hamburg and New York Steinways. In both cases, it depends more on how they are voiced.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2102140 - 06/13/13 07:02 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14120
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
There is not that much difference between Hamburg and New York Steinways. In both cases, it depends more on how they are voiced.


You're sure of this?

Both pianos are apparently specifically designed to sound very differently. The're using very different hammers.

Steinway has always been first one pointing this out....

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (06/13/13 07:07 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

Top
#2102146 - 06/13/13 07:23 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1601
Loc: Toronto
Hamburgs to my ears and fingers are a completely different piano than The Ny models. The only people I've ever heard say they are the same are NY Steinway dealers:)

Good luck Noam. I feel the pain of your dissatisfaction and hope you find a good resolution soon. There's some good advice on this thread. Hopefully you can weed out the not-so-good advice from those here who have too much time on their hands and nothing of value to add except to stroke their own small intellectual egos.
You're not an idiot or a bad person for finding yourself in this place. You deserve to have everything you want in the end--unfortunately though you just might not be *entitled* to it, so you'll have to be creative about getting it.
All the best,
Adrean


Edited by AJF (06/13/13 07:25 PM)

Top
#2102157 - 06/13/13 07:52 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: BDB]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Originally Posted By: BDB
There is not that much difference between Hamburg and New York Steinways. In both cases, it depends more on how they are voiced.



You are a piano technician so I respect your opinion. Can you then explain why the hamburg a have a brighter sound? Are they voiced to have a brighter sound out of the hamburg factory because the consumer in Europe prefers brighter sound?

Why are the hammers different? NY makes their own which are soft and have to be hardened with chemical. Hamburg are made by renner and are naturally hard without chemical and have to be brought down with needling. Am I correct?

Top
#2102164 - 06/13/13 08:10 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14120
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
Why are the hammers different? NY makes their own which are soft and have to be hardened with chemical. Hamburg are made by renner and are naturally hard without chemical and have to be brought down with needling. Am I correct?


The different hammers are part of the different philosophy.

In using top Renners, Hamburgs share the same sound ideal as many other German/European makes: not exactly 'bright-bright' but clear, powerful AND highly resonant at same time.

Think perhaps of an opera singer, nothing 'muffled' 'layered' or 'dark' about their voice.

Some may be thinnner than others, some have more overtones but all are very "clear" projecting tone very well.

IMHO based on a long tradition of European tonality in general.

Oh sole mio...

Norbert smile



Edited by Norbert (06/13/13 08:14 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

Top
#2102179 - 06/13/13 09:09 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Signor Marten,

Sono d'accordo con la vostra valutazione. Tu non sei solo a tutti!

Amburgo è un design completamente diverso e suona in questo modo. Come per ogni cosa, c'è uno scopo. Non sono solo i martelli che sono diversi.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2102210 - 06/13/13 10:46 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14120
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Signor Marty:

Non credo che sia una questione di accordo, ma realtà.
Una "bella" fatto a proposito. Come noi italiani dicono: "E 'bello avere due bellezze di una sola" ...

Bravo, bravissimo!

Norbert thumb
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

Top
#2102219 - 06/13/13 11:00 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Thrill Science Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 513
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
We have a saying in Hebrew: "regarding taste and smell, there is no debate".


A better translation would be "Taste and smell do not argue."

"על טעם ועל ריח אין להתוכח"

Are you really a Hebrew speaker? :-)

(Here's a link to the Hebrew Wiktionary.)
_________________________
Robert Swirsky
Thrill Science, Inc.

Top
#2102263 - 06/14/13 01:38 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21304
Loc: Oakland
The Hamburg Steinways that I have seen have been all over the map, just like those from New York. There seem to be different ways of voicing them which reflect the different people who voice them. Sometimes the felt is harder, sometimes softer, just like New York.

The designs are the same. The variations are not significantly different. The actions are close enough.

What has been the biggest difference is the build quality, but that seems to be converging somewhat. In the long run, what matters is the person who takes care of it, which is a bigger variable than the piano itself.

I was recently asked what piano to get for a new hall around here, New York or Hamburg. On my advice, they got a New York D, and with the money saved, and a little more, got a CFX as well. I do not think anybody complains that it is New York, rather than Hamburg.

The most important difference between various Steinways is that everyone has different standards and methods for voicing pianos, and Steinway hammers are different from most others. But the last set of hammers from Hamburg that I worked on were not a lot different from New York hammers, nor were the results. As usual, I thought I could do more, but people are usually more than satisfied before I get the really fine points of voicing, which might take another day or two.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2102266 - 06/14/13 01:56 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Thrill Science]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
We have a saying in Hebrew: "regarding taste and smell, there is no debate".


A better translation would be "Taste and smell do not argue."

"על טעם ועל ריח אין להתוכח"

Are you really a Hebrew speaker? :-)

(Here's a link to the Hebrew Wiktionary.)



Ken. Ani meisrael. Very cool you recognize that phrase smile hahahaha

Top
#2102275 - 06/14/13 02:43 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3521
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
We have a saying in Hebrew: "regarding taste and smell, there is no debate".


A better translation would be "Taste and smell do not argue."

"על טעם ועל ריח אין להתוכח"

Are you really a Hebrew speaker? :-)

(Here's a link to the Hebrew Wiktionary.)



Ken. Ani meisrael. Very cool you recognize that phrase smile hahahaha


The most remarkable thing to come out of this thread, for me, is the good grace and humour with which Noam takes the barbs being thrown his way. It's a real credit to you Noam, that you don't stoop to others' levels when they are having a crack at you. I hope you get the piano you desire. Best wishes.

Top
#2102336 - 06/14/13 08:26 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: BDB]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: BDB
The designs are the same. The variations are not significantly different. The actions are close enough.

Interesting. That is a direct contradiction of the Head Technician from the Steinway C&A program in an interview during the Cliburn Competition.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2102362 - 06/14/13 09:12 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
BrainCramp Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/12
Posts: 254
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
We have a saying in Hebrew: "regarding taste and smell, there is no debate".


A better translation would be "Taste and smell do not argue."

"על טעם ועל ריח אין להתוכח"

Are you really a Hebrew speaker? :-)

(Here's a link to the Hebrew Wiktionary.)



Ken. Ani meisrael. Very cool you recognize that phrase smile hahahaha

Ani lo medeberet ivrit. That's all I remember from my attempt to learn Modern Hebrew. I used to have clever little stickers on my keyboard to type the Hebrew letters, but Windows made it tricky to switch to right-to-left reliably.

I hope to persist with learning piano longer than I did with Hebrew. It's similar, though. Practice, practice, practice. And occasional shouting.

Top
#2102584 - 06/14/13 05:57 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
LJC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1516
Loc: New York
S&S D, NY vs. Hamburg. Agree they are converging but they are still different. I do think they are the same design but they are built differently. They now both use the same plate. My Hamburg has a sightly different plate that used to be used in Hamburgs. As stated the hammers are different but I do not see that as a design difference. They now both use Alaskan sitka for the sound board. Hamburg has not adapted the accelerated action that NY has. Hamburg tunes to A 442 while NY tunes to A-440. (I have it from a reliable source that Horowitz had his NY D tuned sharp) The NY D has a compression crowned board while the Hamburg has ribbed crown. I believe the wood used in NY rims is somewhat different. (not sure about this one) The wood is seasoned (cured) differently. Thereby the caution in having a Hamburg in North America. The finished case style is slightly different. The NY one looks more modern to me. I hear Hamburg will be using the NY pedal box. Probably since they are produced in NY with computer milling machines (no mistakes). This would not make a difference to the sound of course. There may be other differences I am unaware of.

Mr. N I am still curious as to how you have a new model D and you're not happy. Didn't you play the piano before you bought it?

Top
#2102588 - 06/14/13 06:21 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: LJC]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1101
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: LJC
S&S D, NY vs. Hamburg. Agree they are converging but they are still different. I do think they are the same design but they are built differently.


Don't forget the sostenuto...

Top
#2102626 - 06/14/13 08:09 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Norbert]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10452
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
There is not that much difference between Hamburg and New York Steinways. In both cases, it depends more on how they are voiced.


You're sure of this?

Both pianos are apparently specifically designed to sound very differently. The're using very different hammers.

Steinway has always been first one pointing this out....

Norbert


This article might shed some light on the subject:

http://www.pianobuyer.com/PDFarchive/2011_SteinwayFitAndFinish.pdf
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

Top
#2102763 - 06/15/13 03:45 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
phacke Offline

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 470
Loc: CO, USA
Hello Mr. Cohen, that link you gave just above was very informative, it went far in answering some questions that I had about the current best practices of hammer prep at Steinway. Thank you.

The impression however is that if you buy replacement hammers at Steinway according to best practices, they must be purchased for the exact model you have, and that because most rebuild shops and owners don't have pounding machines to break in these new/improved low-lacquer hammers, it will take a long time of playing to manually pound in the hammer wool to get good sound. Is that your impression?

Regards -


Edited by phacke (06/15/13 04:01 AM)
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
G. F. Hndel: Suite in G minor (HWV 452)
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin

Top
#2102801 - 06/15/13 06:58 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: LJC]
lilylady Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 4977
Loc: boston north
Originally Posted By: LJC

Mr. N I am still curious as to how you have a new model D and you're not happy. Didn't you play the piano before you bought it?


LJC, nice to see you posting. Great memories of playing your Hamburg D!

There was a thread that was closed that might explain it better. In the opening statement, Mr. N stated "I flew to the factory about 9 months ago and picked the best one out of 5."

Although closed, the thread is still available to view.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post2095668
_________________________
"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."

Top
#2102818 - 06/15/13 08:33 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10349
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
What does that say about the other four … grin

Wow, I'm being a real noodge today.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

Top
#2102849 - 06/15/13 10:21 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: LJC]
Orz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/21/13
Posts: 58
Originally Posted By: LJC
I believe the wood used in NY rims is somewhat different. (not sure about this one) The wood is seasoned (cured) differently. Thereby the caution in having a Hamburg in North America.


I went to STS factory tour with the local dealer about a year ago, and I remember seeing a big pile of cut Maple wood pieces for the rims. The guide said they were about to ship them to Hamburg...

Top
#2102882 - 06/15/13 12:06 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14120
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Personally I have never heard of Hamburgs having their Renner hammers replaced with New York hammers.

It's always seems going the other way around.
In fact we've done few in past ourselves - by owners request.

They later were VERY happy with results.

Not saying it couldn't have gone the other way either...

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

Top
#2102921 - 06/15/13 02:14 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: phacke]
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3659
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Originally Posted By: phacke
The impression however is that if you buy replacement hammers at Steinway according to best practices, they must be purchased for the exact model you have, and that because most rebuild shops and owners don't have pounding machines to break in these new/improved low-lacquer hammers, it will take a long time of playing to manually pound in the hammer wool to get good sound.
Regards -



Breaking in a similar type of hammer Steinway New York uses. These are made by Ronsen and have a softer pliable felt then what most other companies use. Every piano we rebuild no matter what hammer is used, get this "pounding" for 30 hours. We also go this on our Walter grands in our prep sequence.

_________________________
Verhnjak Pianos
Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

Exclusive Dealer For Charles R. Walter Pianos
www.pianoman.ca
Verhnjak Pianos Facebook


Top
#2102923 - 06/15/13 02:20 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: phacke]
terminaldegree Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 2631
Loc: western Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: phacke

The impression however is that if you buy replacement hammers at Steinway according to best practices, they must be purchased for the exact model you have, and that because most rebuild shops and owners don't have pounding machines to break in these new/improved low-lacquer hammers, it will take a long time of playing to manually pound in the hammer wool to get good sound. Is that your impression?


The last 3 rebuild shops I've visited all had "pounding in" machines, fwiw.
It took a couple of years of playing for the "wooly" model A in my office to start developing a nice range of tone colors, though I intentionally bought one that wasn't too loud due to space limitations and knowing it was going to get played 20 hours a week during the school year.

Techs that I speak to that work on new Steinways seem to like their current production hammers an awful lot.
_________________________
Pianist, teacher, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Casio px-200, Bechstein A190 #192939 @ home
Steinway A #585209, B #416809 @ work
Schimmel 130T #339100, on loan

Top
#2103341 - 06/16/13 01:21 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
LJC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1516
Loc: New York
Ed- Whats' different about the sostenuto?

Roberta - Nice to hear from you too! Thanks for the answer. If Mr. N thought his piano good enough to buy but now does not like it I suspect his problem is room acoustics.

Re hammers - I have heard that S&S NY changed their hammers in some way. I heard this through my tech whose friend is a prominent concert artist and teacher and was asked by S&S to try the new hammer. He evidently liked it very much. After I heard this I asked a salesman about it at Steinway Hall but he knew nothing about it. I recently changed the hammers on my S&S and was quite surprised by the improvement in sound, but then as my tech says, I was driving on bald tires.

Top
#2103355 - 06/16/13 02:04 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14120
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
It's interesting how much difference 'identical' hammers by same manufacturer can do.

Apparently Hamburg tries a number of sets of several for each single piano. They run of course only few hammers in the different sections of piano - not entire sets.

The hammers are exclusive made and supplied by Renner [ thinking used to be Abel..]

While playing in by machines or hand is fine, there obviously is a 'suitability' to be detected right from beginning.

What also counts is what happens later: hammers need to be shoulder sanded for evenness and voiced to piano's ideal tone
by someone competent.

Several companies I know do similar things, alas can be dangerous.

Dr. Laul ended up marrying one of the music students who was hired to play pianos in - at factory....

Norbert grin


Edited by Norbert (06/16/13 02:32 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

Top
#2103359 - 06/16/13 02:12 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: LJC]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1101
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: LJC
Ed- Whats' different about the sostenuto?

The last Hamburg piano I saw had the sostenuto rod mounted on the belly rail.


Top
#2103518 - 06/16/13 08:40 PM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
LJC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1516
Loc: New York
The last Hamburg piano I saw had the sostenuto rod mounted on the belly rail.

I wasn't aware of that change but I think its a great idea.

Top
#2103631 - 06/17/13 01:30 AM Re: "The Steinway Promise" upgrade policy [Re: Hamburg-D]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21304
Loc: Oakland
It should be noted that the process of playing in hammers is not the same as aging hammers. Most materials, including felt, will change due to oxidation, and that takes time.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 >

Moderator:  Ken Knapp, Piano World, Rickster 
What's Hot!!
Our latest Issue is available now...
Piano News - Interesting & Fun Piano Related Newsletter! (free)
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
140 registered (36251, AmateurBob, AndresD, ajames, 38 invisible), 1615 Guests and 11 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75602 Members
42 Forums
156334 Topics
2296050 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
High school student questions..
by lavienrose16
Today at 10:38 AM
August Piano Bar, drinks on the house
by Peyton
Today at 09:40 AM
I just read this at the Yamaha FAQ website
by BrianDX
Today at 09:21 AM
Schimmel DUO piano
by wimpiano
Today at 08:56 AM
Feurich 190 cm grand from 1920 - Is it any good?
by pinkfloydhomer
Today at 08:16 AM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission