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#2101243 - 06/11/13 10:58 PM *NEW* - Ear Training - Theory and Practice w/Dave Frank
Dfrankjazz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 123
Loc: NYC


Explore 3 of the hippest systems for developing your ears! This class focuses on developing the ability of the inner ear to hear multiple notes, intervals and tonal/chord colors. Any musician in any genre can benefit from the clear practices presented on this unique video. Dave opens the video, the 20th in his online series, with a new performance, "Peace in the Kingdom".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzegfvnMFHs

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Piano & Music Accessories
#2101561 - 06/12/13 03:53 PM Re: *NEW* - Ear Training - Theory and Practice w/Dave Frank [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Lost Woods Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 104
Loc: The Netherlands
Great video, will give ear training a good place in my daily practice.
Anyone can tell me if with the "interval with song recognition" method... do I need to make a list for intervals "down" too or learn to reverse?

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#2101607 - 06/12/13 05:34 PM Re: *NEW* - Ear Training - Theory and Practice w/Dave Frank [Re: Dfrankjazz]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
I've started using a free app for the iPhone called: PlayByEar it's actually quite excellent. Intervals but also melodic phrases.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2101657 - 06/12/13 07:13 PM Re: *NEW* - Ear Training - Theory and Practice w/Dave Frank [Re: Dfrankjazz]
RonL Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 181
I think if you go to the Abersole site they have a free jazz handbook that lists tunes for all intervals up and down, but keep your own list would be my advice. The minot third down always sounds like a part of the soundtrack to Butch Cassady and the Sundance kid to me.

Here the abersole link

http://www.jazzbooks.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=FQBK&Store_Code=JAJAZZ

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#2101826 - 06/13/13 05:30 AM Re: *NEW* - Ear Training - Theory and Practice w/Dave Frank [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Lost Woods Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 104
Loc: The Netherlands
@ chrisb, true that's a great app.. paid for it on android but worth every coin. Training my intervals with it smile.
@ RonL thanks for the link.

About the songs, yeah I think everyone's list is personal. Mine is almost completely different from Dave Franks. I only took DF's minor 7th interval (star trek) cause I don't know a tune which begins with it! So I have to hear/play that song a lot to be able to recognize the interval. The major 7th interval though is very hard.

Wondering how knowing a interval between 2 notes really helps one besides from theory. I mean, in a line you don't hear or think in "2 note parts". If you would, you will have to pause every 2 notes and here te interval between the two notes. Does it have something to do with the subconscious?

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#2101991 - 06/13/13 01:46 PM Re: *NEW* - Ear Training - Theory and Practice w/Dave Frank [Re: Dfrankjazz]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
Lost Woods "Somewhere", west side story
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#2104891 - 06/19/13 01:40 PM Re: *NEW* - Ear Training - Theory and Practice w/Dave Frank [Re: Dfrankjazz]
RonL Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 181
Just watched the ear training YouTube - going to have to try some of the exercises. Great job!

But suddenly I have an urge to call my friend Juan and go to the bibleoteca...voy!


Edited by RonL (06/19/13 01:41 PM)

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#2107040 - 06/24/13 02:59 AM Re: *NEW* - Ear Training - Theory and Practice w/Dave Frank [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Ted Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 1503
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
I once diligently worked at ear training like this for several months and began to recognise many things I couldn't before. Trouble was, it didn't seem to have any relevance to my improvisation whatsoever, or playing of any sort for that matter. The process of spontaneous creation, and recognition of isolated combinations by ear seem to come from different faculties for me. Therefore either what I do is not real music or more than one way of spontaneous creation exists. I couldn't imagine anything more dull and pointless than knowing precisely what was coming in an improvisation. And yet many musicians say this is the ideal, what should always happen, and Dave's approach seems to endorse this view. There is still a mystery here. What exactly does go on ? I would like to believe that many varying individual improvisational processes are possible, all capable of generating vital results.
_________________________
"It is inadvisable to decline a dinner invitation from a plump woman." - Fred Hollows

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#2107050 - 06/24/13 04:32 AM Re: *NEW* - Ear Training - Theory and Practice w/Dave Frank [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 604
Loc: Leicester, UK
Ted,

You're right. There are different ways to hear things and different ways to improve your ear. Ear training can focus on ANYTHING at all that anyone can hear. Some people learn more from one way than another. Some find ear training to be more useful than others. Some find it to be much more onerous than others! Those who find it onerous usually find it to be even worse - much worse! - in a classroom setting.

If you study ear training through different systems you get different perspectives. Some systems of ear training rely heavily on sight singing and solfege while others focus on on pitch or interval recognition w/out singing. Some might say that deep meditative listening and hearing is a form of ear training. My observation is the more ear training you, in whatever style you do it, do the better you get and the more you learn.

Whether or not ear training is useful for anyone depends on how it's conscientiously it's studied and for how long and how consistently. Most people who have studied ear training across a period of years rather than months will tell you it is a very helpful thing to do. It does take time, sometimes more time than we'd think, to transform things learned mechanically and self-consciously in a structured exercise into musical skills we use naturally and in the moment when they're needed. If music is a language ear training is a way to broaden the ability to use the language. How that broadening happens isn't always straightforward.

Returning to your observations - the best practice may be the study you do when you're 100% engaged in whatever it is you're working on and when you're really enjoying that engagement. Finding balance points are key - and we all do balance somewhat differently.

... These observations are what I've noticed after years of teaching ear training. It's definitely a 'mileage may vary' kind of endeavor - for that reason it can be useful to stick with it and to find an ear training system that addresses your particular needs. There is no 'one size fits all .. ' ... but there huge benefits that acrue eventually over time when studying almost anything.


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#2107065 - 06/24/13 05:38 AM Re: *NEW* - Ear Training - Theory and Practice w/Dave Frank [Re: Mark Polishook]
Ted Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 1503
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
Originally Posted By: printer1

... These general observations are what I've noticed after years of teaching ear training. ....


Thanks for your detailed response. You obviously know a great deal more about ear training than I do and I therefore take your word in these matters. It certainly cannot do any harm. Still, the degree to which interesting improvisation is dependent on the isolated, measurable aural acuity of the player seems to me far from clear. My teacher had an amazing ear, could repeat many things after one hearing, heard internally what was coming and so on, but his improvisation was musically rather dull compared to that of more aurally dense, but creatively imaginative players I have known.

Perhaps the act of spontaneous creation is equally dependent on remembered, physical, haptic, visual, spatial, emotional and combinatorial aspects as it is on aural. I really don't know.
_________________________
"It is inadvisable to decline a dinner invitation from a plump woman." - Fred Hollows

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#2107069 - 06/24/13 06:01 AM Re: *NEW* - Ear Training - Theory and Practice w/Dave Frank [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Lost Woods Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 104
Loc: The Netherlands
Well you guys make an interesting point. For me, I'm 24 and started piano at 22. Since it's just a "hobby" I have to make choices on how to approach. I can't study piano for like hours a day... I just don't have the time to work out all the theory and approaches.

I'm at the point that I want to learn one thing more than anything else on piano which is playing by ear. When you don't have to think in scales, progressions etc. in my thoughts you are really "free". For example, I really like how certain players don't even know about chord changes or theory. Chet Baker only asked for the "starting" note, nothing more. On ear he could improvise over all the changes.

But than the question comes to mind.. how to learn this? There are lots of excersises but which one is really the most usefull to reach my goal?

For example: One can do interval training. Recognize am interval between 2 notes (by relating it to a song/piece you know). But well, if you can do that, how does this really help in practicing improv? You can't hear a melody in your head and than think like "ok the space between note 1 and 2 is a M6 because it sounds like Chopin's nocturne, the space between note 2 and 3 is a augmented 4 because it sounds like the Simpsons. That just doesn't make sense.

I'm really searching for a good approach to learn this kind of stuff.

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#2107078 - 06/24/13 06:48 AM Re: *NEW* - Ear Training - Theory and Practice w/Dave Frank [Re: Ted]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 604
Loc: Leicester, UK
Originally Posted By: Ted


Still, the degree to which interesting improvisation is dependent on the isolated, measurable aural acuity of the player seems to me far from clear. My teacher had an amazing ear, could repeat many things after one hearing, heard internally what was coming and so on, but his improvisation was musically rather dull compared to that of more aurally dense, but creatively imaginative players I have known.

Perhaps the act of spontaneous creation is equally dependent on remembered, physical, haptic, visual, spatial, emotional and combinatorial aspects as it is on aural. I really don't know.



Ted, those are really good points that go right to the issues of measurable skills in relation to 'interesting improvisation.' Of course that's a divide that applies to just about everything - and not just music. But it's a divide that's worth keeping in the front of the discussion.

I understand too the point you make about your former teacher and his ears and his playing. Basically, raw technical skill doesn't guarantee artistic outcome. Sometimes it even goes against it.

This is stuff that only gets more interesting and unusual with further discussion ... But so does eartraining!

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#2107081 - 06/24/13 06:52 AM Re: *NEW* - Ear Training - Theory and Practice w/Dave Frank [Re: Lost Woods]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 604
Loc: Leicester, UK
Originally Posted By: Lost Woods


I'm really searching for a good approach to learn this kind of stuff.



It's not at all unlike "the best camera is the one you have with you." Meaning, the best ear training system often is the one you use." Over time you'll pick out the best parts and complement them with other stuff found elsewhere.

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#2107083 - 06/24/13 06:57 AM Re: *NEW* - Ear Training - Theory and Practice w/Dave Frank [Re: Mark Polishook]
Lost Woods Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 104
Loc: The Netherlands
So you would say try them all... even if I think pure interval training recognizing distance between just two notes isn't that much useful.

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#2107115 - 06/24/13 09:15 AM Re: *NEW* - Ear Training - Theory and Practice w/Dave Frank [Re: Lost Woods]
Dfrankjazz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 123
Loc: NYC
Ear training helps you to actualize what you're hearing in your inner ear. It's not about hearing what you're going to play before you hear it, it's being able to play what you hear as you're hearing it. Ear training helps to shorten the route between your ears and your instrument.

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#2107373 - 06/24/13 06:09 PM Re: *NEW* - Ear Training - Theory and Practice w/Dave Frank [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Ted Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 1503
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
I understand what you mean, but for me the other side of the feedback loop, where the brain reacts to actual sounds produced is also vital. Outside going in is as important as inside going out, and both directions have many components aside from the purely aural.
_________________________
"It is inadvisable to decline a dinner invitation from a plump woman." - Fred Hollows

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#2107393 - 06/24/13 06:45 PM Re: *NEW* - Ear Training - Theory and Practice w/Dave Frank [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Lost Woods Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 104
Loc: The Netherlands
Well one thing I like a lot about DF method is the singing. On almost all my practice I now include singing. Today I tried descending intervals instead of ascending (on teoria). I tried to sing the descending interval in reverse to make it ascending.. and than relate it to a known song which I memorized for ascending intervals.

This did work a lot of the time.. got a lot "descending" intervals right this way but not all, it should work all the time. So to hear and reproduce the pitch seem to me a very important skill.

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