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#2101961 - 06/13/13 12:49 PM Yamaha CFX Source of Parts
worldlinerai Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/19/10
Posts: 10
Loc: 5-pts Island
Hi, I rarely visit PW since I am busy with other things.

However, I am kind of curious over someone's claim about the new Yamaha CFX concert grand on YouTube.

http://youtu.be/9cHIjDNOWUs

The uploader said that the Yamaha CFXs are sourced with Bosendorfer action and soundboard. However, I don't believe that statement is true especially the soundboard and the fact that Bosendorfer gets their action from Renner. Although Bosendorfer is owned by Yamaha, I think of them as being two separate divisions under the Yamaha company... basically like two manufactures under one owner.

I really want to get my facts correct before heading into a dispute with the uploader's claim. Given that PW has many experts and maybe a few insiders, maybe you can help me get my facts straight about these the CFX.
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#2101974 - 06/13/13 01:13 PM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai]
terminaldegree Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 2686
Loc: western Wisconsin
I don't think the info in the link is accurate, based on what I have heard from Yamaha and Bosendorfer reps. Yamaha makes their own action and I believe is very proud of that. I have heard nobody say that they're using the Renner hammers, and I think Yamaha is proud to use their own stuff in their pianos.

I also find it somewhat laughable that a soundboard for a Yamaha-designed concert grand is somehow "from Bosendorfer". Now, they could source the wood from the same supplier, or specify the same grade, but I'd have a hard time envisioning a sub-line in Austria whose sole purpose would be to assemble soundboards for Yamahas being built in Japan, when the materials could simply be shipped to Hammamatsu and assembled there, and fitted to the piano.

I've played my fair share of model 280 and 290 Bosies, and tried the CFX at NAMM, and can say the sound signature between the two brands is notably different. I'd even say the 280 and 290 are a little different, while we're at it, but that's the subject of another thread (and I'd need to play a couple of new 290's before I can say definitively).
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#2101987 - 06/13/13 01:39 PM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10483
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
No way. Yamaha has their own soundboard and action.
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#2101996 - 06/13/13 01:54 PM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai]
Grand Piano Haus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/05
Posts: 194
Loc: Skokie, IL
Originally Posted By: worldlinerai
Hi, I rarely visit PW since I am busy with other things.

However, I am kind of curious over someone's claim about the new Yamaha CFX concert grand on YouTube.

http://youtu.be/9cHIjDNOWUs

The uploader said that the Yamaha CFXs are sourced with Bosendorfer action and soundboard. However, I don't believe that statement is true especially the soundboard and the fact that Bosendorfer gets their action from Renner. Although Bosendorfer is owned by Yamaha, I think of them as being two separate divisions under the Yamaha company... basically like two manufactures under one owner.

I really want to get my facts correct before heading into a dispute with the uploader's claim. Given that PW has many experts and maybe a few insiders, maybe you can help me get my facts straight about these the CFX.


The soundboard, hammers and action mechanism are completely different between Bösendorfer & Yamaha CF Series. Bösendorfer sources its tone-wood near Saltzburg, Austria and parts of Southeastern Bavaria.
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#2102013 - 06/13/13 02:11 PM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
I would be very surprised if the hammers have Royal George felt on them, as claimed. Royal George felt was used on entry level Korean and Chinese pianos....

But it is usually not worth arguing with people who don't understand that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
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#2102059 - 06/13/13 04:14 PM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: Supply]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10483
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: Supply
I would be very surprised if the hammers have Royal George felt on them, as claimed. Royal George felt was used on entry level Korean and Chinese pianos....

But it is usually not worth arguing with people who don't understand that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.


Royal George hammerfelt was used on the early Yamaha C Series pianos.
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My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#2102251 - 06/14/13 12:25 AM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Early C series pianos - let me see... that would be 40 years ago, wouldn't it? Or maybe more? Sorry, I am not a Yamaha historian.
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#2102378 - 06/14/13 09:31 AM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: Supply]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10483
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: Supply
Early C series pianos - let me see... that would be 40 years ago, wouldn't it? Or maybe more? Sorry, I am not a Yamaha historian.


Are you calling me ancient???

laugh

I think they use Royal George hammerfelts until the early- or mid-80s.
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My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#2102431 - 06/14/13 11:25 AM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: Steve Cohen]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Are you calling me ancient???
laugh
I think they use Royal George hammerfelts until the early- or mid-80s.

I judge people's age by the number of their posts to PW. You are getting up there, but are still a long way from being a shrunken, shriveled ancient geezer... I probably don't have to mention any names... whistle
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#2102435 - 06/14/13 11:28 AM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7438
Loc: Rochester MN
Steve is about to join the "Yikes Club!"

grin
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#2102472 - 06/14/13 12:37 PM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10483
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
laugh
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Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#2102475 - 06/14/13 12:44 PM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7438
Loc: Rochester MN
Niney-Nine hunerd peeaners on da wall, niney-nine keyboids...

What?
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#2102485 - 06/14/13 01:11 PM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10371
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Steve is about to join the "Yikes Club!"

grin


Yeah, and I'm not too far behind. But he is waaaay older than I am. grin
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#2102956 - 06/15/13 03:32 PM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai]
4evrBeginR Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/27/09
Posts: 1607
Loc: California
The Yamaha CFX now uses spruce from Bavaria instead of Alaska for the CFX and CX series soundboards, but they are Yamaha soundboards, not Boesendorfer. Lots of other pianos have Bavarian spruce soundboards, none of them are from Boesendorfer except for a Boesendorfer.

Yamaha always made their own action, and the CX actions are very good, and the S and CF series actions are amazing. Yamaha now utilizes German wood for their hammers, but hammers are made by Yamaha, not Renner or another German hammer maker.

Yamaha altered the designed of the CFX/CX series significantly after the aquisition of Boesendorfer, but unless you work for the Yamaha piano design division, you probably won't know whether the design change was home-grown, or technology transfer from Boesendorfer, maybe a combination of both.
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#2103019 - 06/15/13 06:53 PM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21583
Loc: Oakland
There seems to be the assumption that Bösendorfer is better than Yamaha. In my experience, the best Yamaha and Bösendorfer are different, but I would not say that one is better than the other.
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#2103071 - 06/15/13 09:34 PM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: 4evrBeginR]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: 4evrBeginR
... Yamaha now utilizes German wood for their hammers...
I take it you mean German felt on the hammers?
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#2103078 - 06/15/13 09:58 PM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: Supply]
4evrBeginR Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/27/09
Posts: 1607
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Supply
I take it you mean German felt on the hammers?

Yes, I was thinking wool, but typed wood. smile
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#2103079 - 06/15/13 10:04 PM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7438
Loc: Rochester MN
Aren't piano hammers made of wood and covered with felt?

Lama wool makes lovely felt.
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#2103139 - 06/16/13 01:27 AM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: Minnesota Marty]
worldlinerai Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/19/10
Posts: 10
Loc: 5-pts Island
Hi again.

Thanks for all responses. I did learn something new after reading some of the replies. I actually thought Royal George Hammers were top-of-the-line hammers but it turns out that some of the entry level models used them as well.

I kind of felt suspicious over the YouTube uploader's claim given that I've watch two lengthy videos of the Yamaha's grand piano production (The C-Series and the S/CF-Series) and read through Bosendorfer's catalog about how they build their pianos. Also given the fact that these two pianos are built with different ideologies and different methods, I find it strange that Yamahas would share parts.

After thinking about it, I should leave the person who uploaded the video alone since he is probably happy with his Yamaha CFX and I'm just there to burst his pride bubble. But it's nice to get some ideas of where they source their parts (Hoping I did not expose company secrets).

I know I should not look at videos like these, but I just happen to stumble upon it on YouTube. I just enjoy watching people's demonstrations Bosendorfer pianos and I wish to own one of those pianos someday. Given that I am not as old as some of the PW members on here, I probably have years ahead to make it come true.
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#2103140 - 06/16/13 01:32 AM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Aren't piano hammers made of wood and covered with felt?
Rhetorical question?

While the characteristics of the wood used in the hammer core do play a part in hammer mass and tonal response, it is almost insignificant when compared to the importance of the hammer felt characteristics for tone and dynamics.
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#2103279 - 06/16/13 11:33 AM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai]
terminaldegree Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 2686
Loc: western Wisconsin
The uploader is a salesperson for the local Yamaha dealership. Just look up the name and the title of the clip and apply the appropriate "bias filter" to suit the situation...

Although that's a nice hall to play, I've always had trouble getting a good sounding recording in there.
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#2103296 - 06/16/13 12:00 PM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai]
Rickster Offline


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8542
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Supply
I would be very surprised if the hammers have Royal George felt on them, as claimed. Royal George felt was used on entry level Korean and Chinese pianos....

Well, don’t know if it matters or not, but my former Tokai G180 grand had the Royal George felt on the hammers. I figured anything with “Royal” in the name had to be good quality, like Royals Royce. smile

(Okay, that was a joke, I know it is Rolls Royce, but was trying to be humorous, which I'm not very good at smile ).

Rick
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#2103334 - 06/16/13 01:10 PM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
First thing to point out is that this is no company video and all information appears to be coming from third parties.

Now:

The word "German felt" has long been a distractor in the industry. I once discussed this extensively with Norbert Abel. It's a very extensive subject as there really is no such thing as "German felt" explaining things by itslef.

First of all, in the process of felt making, all wool for hammer making is imported to Germany from elsewhere - first.

It now very much depends on the quality of the felt and the manufacturing by several felting companies in and OUTSIDE of Germany. It's a bit like being a winemaker and choosing grapes from different parts of the world.

Perhaps one can become quickly rich and famous making wine by simply buying "German grapes" ha

Traditionally speaking, buying a good Renner, Abel or Ronson felt hammer from established companies is guarantor of getting great quality.

It is of course possible that other companies are being or will be added to this list in future.

But "German felt" by itself doesn't explain evrything in this regard.

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (06/17/13 05:39 PM)
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#2103378 - 06/16/13 03:09 PM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: Norbert]
4evrBeginR Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/27/09
Posts: 1607
Loc: California
Yamaha uses to use Japanese felt and now German felt. Neither Japan nor Germany are a major source for this. So I think it is very confusing, but it does make sense if they mean that the felt were made in that country even though the raw material came from somewhere else. Sort of the piano is considered made in Japan even though it's got lots of raw materials from all over the place. I seriously doubt anything at all in a Yamaha was actually grown in Japan.

I discovered a couple of years ago the major source of cardboard box material for China is the United States, a bit ironic.

My question is, could the Bavarian forest sustain all the demands by all these companies? Aren't we running out of tone wood?
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#2103409 - 06/16/13 04:15 PM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7438
Loc: Rochester MN
Could the white pine forests of Japan even be considered for tone wood? It might be OK for action parts, ....

And I'm sure that Boesendorfer doesn't buy tone wood from Japan either. Probably not even pine for action parts.

Is there a bakery in Tokyo that can even make a Sacer Torte. Does Demel's own Yamaha?

crazy
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#2103433 - 06/16/13 05:15 PM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: 4evrBeginR]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: 4evrBeginR
Yamaha uses to use Japanese felt and now German felt. Neither Japan nor Germany are a major source for this....
Felt does not grow on sheep, it is an industrial product. The fact of the matter is that Japan and especially Germany are indeed major sources of felt for musical instruments. The oldest and most prestigious piano felt manufacturer is in Germany, and going strong today after over 160 years. Their hammer felt is used in many of not most of the best pianos built anywhere in the world.
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#2103679 - 06/17/13 05:00 AM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: Supply]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1197
Originally Posted By: Supply
Originally Posted By: 4evrBeginR
Yamaha uses to use Japanese felt and now German felt. Neither Japan nor Germany are a major source for this....
Felt does not grow on sheep, it is an industrial product. The fact of the matter is that Japan and especially Germany are indeed major sources of felt for musical instruments. The oldest and most prestigious piano felt manufacturer is in Germany, and going strong today after over 160 years. Their hammer felt is used in many of not most of the best pianos built anywhere in the world.


I like that post. I really like that post. Felt does not, indeed, grow on sheep. Infact don't Bluthner claim that their wool for the felt is Australian?

I don't really mind where the parts for a CFX come from, it's a BEAUTIFUL piano whether it comes from Germany or Mongolia.

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#2103828 - 06/17/13 12:46 PM Re: Yamaha CFX Source of Parts [Re: worldlinerai]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
From my discussion with hammer makers the origin of wool is secondary to the actual quality of 'felt' in the end.

There are enviromental factors for imported wool at play today including contaminants that didn't exist before plus a zillion new goverment regulations for importing organic material.

Felting companies typically supply specific samples in batches before orders for larger amounts are given by hammer makers.

Norbert Abel once told me that when his company refuses a certain batch [which apparently happens quite frequently..] the felt may well be sold to someone else.

Which still reamins 100% "German felt"

Don't also forget the old rivalry between Abel and Renner:
both these companies would only choose what will give them best the edge in the premium quality market.

So the "German felt" thing doesn't really tell the whole story.

At least not to those hammer makers determined selecting the very best quality for themselves first.

Of which others may well have been added to the list today.

But not those among the Chinese or Korean makers I have seen using the term in the past..

Norbert smile


Edited by Norbert (06/17/13 01:22 PM)
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