Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Delicately discussing possible learning disorders w/parents

How does one go about asking a parent if you suspect their child (your piano student) has some sort of learning disability?

Would this even be beneficial to know? I think it would be helpful to know if there are certain unhelpful triggers, or a better way of explaining things, etc. But on the other hand, as teachers, isn't that just what we are supposed to do with all our students? Figure out what works for them, individually? (But why wouldn't the parent offer this information?) If I I thought it would be helpful to know, would it be inappropriate to ask? And how would you do this delicately?

For my particular situation:

I have one student, (I recently inheirited him from another teacher, and I am not able to ask her anything about him,) he is about 10, and I am sure he has something like autism (but I have no training in how to identify or deal with anyone with special needs, so perhaps it wouldn't help me to know, but at the very least I could do some research and talk to people who do.) He talks a bit "funny," and he often makes noises (that aren't quite words) while he is playing, he gets frustrated easily, he gets upset when I talk too much, he is VERY slow at learning things (he really can't read notes much outside of a few "5 finger" positions.) I don't really have any relationship with his parents - I teach him at another studio/school, and his parents just drop him off and I leave immediately after his lesson so I usually just don't see them. I recently asked him, and it sounds like he doesn't want to be taking piano, but his parents are making him. He doesn't admit to *never* practicing at home, but that's what it seems to me.

My other student that I wonder about is 13, I have been teaching him since November, he seems like a nice young man who acts like most well-raised boys his age, but sometimes I am on the verge of getting very frustrated with him b/c he just seems DUMB (excuse my language). Like, he cannot remember something that I literally told him 15 seconds ago. If there is a note on the page that he doesn't know (which happens waayyyy too often...) and I tell it to him and he plays it correctly but then literally TWO notes later has the exact same note, he will have no idea what it is without some prompting! His parents are very supportive of him taking piano, and supposedly he practices 3-4 times a week, but given how little he remembers at his lessons, no wonder he isn't progressing. (And I have tried taking him back a level and reviewing very basic things, and yet they seem to sink in sooo slowly...) I really want to know if he, for example, has this much trouble in school (and actually is mentally slow?), or perhaps if he is just a typical teenage boy who is NOT interested in piano and so makes no effort to mentally absorb things I am teaching him.

As a parent I would like communication about piano.

What does he need to work on, how much, what should I do to encourage him. Since there many learning styles, it doesn't matter if he has autism as much as it matters that the teacher has different ways to teach different learners (for example auditory learners, kinesthetic learners etc).

Parents shouldn't have to tell everyone about their child having autism etc- sometimes it begins to define how someone treats their child before they know the child. So in both cases, you need to find a way to communicate with the parents directly and not through their kids.

It is difficult to delicately discuss their learning disabilities when their piano hasn't been delicately discussed.

Tact is needed, as you say, and so I would avoid the word 'disability' which could set things off wrong. Here the phrase is 'special needs'. I am considering asking about this routinely as they sign up. Something to think about.

For your 'dumb' kid, the simplest explanation may be he isn't practicing, or is practicing with the wrong notes, so I would check with parents exactly what is happening over a given week. And yes, then i might say 'if he is genuinely practicing 6 times a week between lessons, and still having these problems, then I have to wonder if he has a problem like dyslexia'

A kid with dyslexia is likely to already have encountered lots of problems in school. Sometimes knowing can help because you can teach to their strengths.

For your possibly 'autistic', I might ask the parents if they or other teachers had noticed eccentricities. But the simplest explanation is he doesn't want to do it, therefore doesn't practice.

If kids like this enjoy their lessons, and their parents don't mind paying for lessons, then they can spend the next five years playing pieces below Piano Adventures 2B. There are so many books out there, the kids won't even finish all of them in five years.

AZN- I'm not really sure that he enjoys his lessons. And I think perhaps b/c he is just a nice, polite young man, I'm not sure he would be honest if I point-blank asked if he wanted to be taking lessons. (in fact, I rather suspect that he *doesn't!*)

ten left thumbs-
Good thought that it might be dyslexia. That would definitely explain some things, but I think perhaps it is more than that... in addition to having trouble with note-reading, he can't really remember concepts or use much logical thinking. ("So if the very top line of the treble clef is F, what do you think the space above it is? What is above F on the piano...?")

There are words that I do not use to describe my students in front of parents......

dumb, stupid, slow, special need, dyslexia, autism, slow learner, special learner, lazy, hyper etc...

I use words such as:
Not responsible for his homework, not paying attention during lesson, rude to teacher etc...

Maggie is right that you need to specific your description in "piano" only. For example, Adam needs to practice this page twice in a day. He also needs to say out the name of the note out loud before practice..ETC...

ANZ is right, if parents do not mind paying and kids are okay with lessons, they can take things very slowly.

Lastly, I include a line that says this in my registration form. Parents are volunteer to include their special need to me, or they can just write "NONE" in this column:



I think most of the time parents are freely to enclose such information with me as I said in the form that I could cater my curriculum to them in this way.

Good luck!!

There is plainly is the possibity that he he is not all that bright so why not make things easier for both of you.
Put away the music script and teach him easy songs by ear right hand first; left hand; hands together! One phrase of words at a time.
I have done this and for me the kid loved it.

Maybe I should start a new thread for this, but I have honestly wondered how kids do this, as in, how do they *practice?* if you're not there to play it for them every day? They just practice the part they already know over and over? How can they make it better if they have nothing except their memory to compare it to?

The easiest way to solve this problem is to prevent it in the first place. I have a short form which I give to parents - it asks for regular contact numbers, emergency contact numbers, and most importantly, it asks if there are any medical, learning or other conditions which I, as a teacher, should know about. BTW, it asks about goals and previous music study as well. Very useful.

red-rose, I have read your post, here:

There is plainly is the possibility that he is not all that bright so why not make things easier for both of you.
Put away the music script and teach him easy songs by ear right hand first; left hand; hands together! One phrase of words at a time.
I have done this and for me the kid loved it.

Maybe I should start a new thread for this, but I have honestly wondered how kids do this, as in, how do they *practice?* if you're not there to play it for them every day? They just practice the part they already know over and over? How can they make it better if they have nothing except their memory to compare it to?

______________________________________________

I knew I was dyslexic since I was a kid and had trouble in school and failed grades 1 and 3. The problem is I didn't really know specifically how it affected me except I couldn't remember anything - especially anything I just heard as opposed to long term memory. What I learned and changed my life, is that I would tell people immediately that I am dyslexic and you will have to write down anything I have to know or do because I won't be able to remember what you said. When I had a sax teacher when I was 40, he would play the piece on my cassette tapedeck and then I would play the piece when he, of course, wasn't around till the next lesson in a week. That made a huge difference. But the problem is that kids and teenager don't want anyone to know they are imperfect or damaged goods, but someone like me - by my 40s - I realized it was very important to tell people how it is. The sax teacher taught me how to count and that made a difference because even now learning the piano, I can count the measures and I know the notes and so I don't need any CDs or recordings of any music because I can read and play the music slowly, at first, but I can play it slowly within a few minutes of reading and playing the music and I can hear the tune, if you will, because as I smooth it out, it comes together.

I can tell you that I now realize that I can probably learn or do anything that most people can do but I must have good notes and take my time.

I had a buddy that really couldn't operate a screwdriver or a wrench, but his memory was excellent, so we would go to the mechanic's shop and my buddy would remember what the mechanic said and I go do the work at home because I was, and am, very mechanical.

So I guess for anyone trying to learn to play the piano, that is dyslexic, the sooner they know the names of the notes, below, above and on the staff, and the sooner they know the values of the notes, then they can read and play the music and hear how it sounds.

Just let the student go. You'll be doing him and his parents a huge favor.

Speaking from experience, this kid never figured it out. I didn't figure it out, in fact, until maybe a few years ago.

My practice method was to play the piece over and over from the sheet music from the top. I mean "practice" in the loosest possible sense. And there were definitely days and sometimes weeks when I might not sit at the piano at all, especially around 6th grade or so, with less frequent lapses as I got into middle and high school.

I do recall teachers writing in fingerings. I do recall teachers sometimes telling me to play something hands separately. But what I don't recall teachers telling me was why these things work from a brain perspective. And since I didn't know why I should practice instead of play, I think I rejected the advice I was given.

Being the kind of kid that read science books in the library, I wonder what might have happened if I'd truly cottoned to what techniques help one develop facility at the piano.

All this is to say is that there's a chance, probably very small, that you could explain why and how mindful practice works and maybe your students will respond. At least they won't be able to claim that they weren't exposed to the relevant concepts ... Unless they forget as i might have.

I wouldn't ask the parent if the child has a learning disorder. It's too close to telling the parent you think their child is dumb.

I would just have a conversation with the parent. I usually start such a conversation with something like "I would like to review [students] progress and talk about goals and expectations."

If there is a diagnosed learning disorder they still might not share it, but they might give you some pointers.

This worked for me recently with a student similar to the OP's. Star Wars primer level by rote, Old MacDonald, etc. I think some parents put their children in piano lessons to "help" them with learning disabilities such as ADHD. For us as teachers, unless we have medical knowledge of these types of disorders, we should not try to diagnose or toss these medical terms around loosely with parents.

I agree with this.

When I sense something extremely 'unusual' with my students, I do ask the parents if their kids had any disorder because their behavior were showing certain symptoms. (tactfully). It is very risky but at least I did my part by highlighting my suspicion. Some parents are aware if their child's disorder, others are not. I cannot keep quiet and stick to beginner's songs indefinitely because in a few years, the parents may expect their kids to sit for exams.

I used to have 'Dumb' students. That has little to do with dyslexia. (I am dyslexic. After struggling though the piece 2-3 times, I could play fluently enough to make out the tune.) Some kids appear dumb because they simply refuse to learn to read, their short-term memories are rather poor and etc. Try testing him by getting him watch and imitate your playing.

P.S. excuse me for my bad English. It is 6am and I need to sleep.

A teacher could frame the discussion as a disclosure followed by a question:
I am having trouble teaching your child X piano skill (e.g. note reading, intervallic reading, phrasing ) using Y method (describe what you are doing).
Do you know of a way that he learns best? Is he a visual learner; do pictures help him remember things?
Does he often need many repetitions to remember something?
Do lots of verbal explanations help?
Is it best to tell him the goal and then let him practice on his own?
Does he like to make up a story about what is happening?

Each of us has strengths and weaknesses and none of them are related to our worth as human beings. ( Unless you believe that they are.) As a teacher you need to decide if you want to be part of this kid's journey or not.

When I see something that sends off an alarm signal, at some point I ask a parent: "Is there anything I need to know?"

That gives the people an opening to tell me what I need to know, if they decide I am trustworthy. If they deny that there is any problem, I have to go with that.

Often parents are afraid of having doors slammed in their faces. I don't have 10 minutes of patience with students who won't try, but once I know a kid or an adult is serious about learning, I will go to nearly any length to help them.

Not all teachers are like that. So parents have to get to know us, get to trust us, before they divulge what could be personal information.

That only works if the parents are aware of their kid's problems. Some parents are in denial, or they are just completely aloof to their kids' deficiencies.

Just recently, the mother of my problem student has finally, finally realized her child's many deficiencies. School test results have more than confirmed what I have been saying for the past three years.