Hello,
I am new to the forum and searching for an upright piano. I used to play many moons ago (16 yrs) and now my 7 yr old daughter will be taking lessons so now I'm searching for a piano - ahhh! I found a Knabe I liked WKV 118T then I went to look at another dealer and found a Pramberger JP 118T that basically looks identical but significantly cheeper. I'm a bit confused as my understanding they are both under Samik pianos. When comparing the details the "insides of the piano" seem to hold the same parts according to what I've read in the brochures. Can anyone provide me information on which might be a better piano and maybe why the Pramberger is so much cheeper? My husband is not musical and is looking at things completely from a financial point of view. Any help or direction would be appreciated!

Shauna: It is a Knabe for those on a budgie, er, budget? It comes further down in the pecking order? The Pramberger only comes in canary yellow? You have to perch closer to it? It has a feather-light touch? OK, I'll stop now

PS: Sorry I have no idea as to your question; I've never seen a Knabe or Pramberger upright piano before...

- Michael B.

For what it's worth, I've played both a Knabe 132 and a Pramberger 132. They sounded, felt, and looked completely different from each other. I felt both pianos had sonic and action shortcomings.

How can I articulate myself? Basically, I am a parent who does not have the space nor the financial ability to purchase a grand or a Steinway for that matter. Am I looking for a bottom of the line entry level piano - No. I'm hoping to find a piano that will suit my daughter's needs as she is introduced to the world of music as well as my needs - I haven't played for 16 yrs but back then I was taking Gr 10 RCM so I'm looking for a little more than just entry level. Is cost an issue? Definitely! Am I overwhelmed with the choices and everyone saying they have the best one - yes! I guess I'm just curious as both pianos have the same look, the same serial number 118T, and when reading the specs in the brochure they each have the same components... I guess I'm not sure why Samik would produce 2 pianos that seem quite the same. The Pramberger rep said his price is lower as they are just getting these pianos in as a new line and want to get them moving. The gentleman who selling the Knabe was very nice and helpful. When you are searching for a piano it is hard to decide who to believe. I guess I was hoping that this site might give me some direction - If neither of these pianos are the way to go, where do I start looking??? I grew up playing on a Baldwin and thought I'd start looking there but there is no one in town that sells them as it is my understanding that they are overpriced. Again, any direction and help would be greatly appreciated

This one might be hard to track down as the Pramberger line is new to Samick. Even The Piano Book by Larry Fine might not have investigated the "true" differences between these pianos.

My guess is only that-a guess and I'm not what you'd consider an industry insider at all-I just happen to have read a lot about Samick-brand pianos because those are the ones I was looking at.

1. Knabe probably has a different soundboard design.
2. Knabe is probably marketed for the next price point up, so look for little things like agraffes and wood panels finished on both sides (the best description of an agraffe would be to look at the photos in The Piano Book-individual "holders" for the bass strings). Maybe higher quality wood and finish, maybe higher quality tuning pins.
3. There is a chance you could negotiate the Knabe down.
4. The country of origin for manufacturer may be different. For pianos at this price point, not much of an issue for home use. Pramberger may be made in Indonesia, Knabe in Korea, but I don't know for sure.[edit-this is really not that big a deal for a piano in this price range, in my opinion]
5. You might consider seeing if you could afford a 121 or 131, either brand. The general rule is, buy the largest piano you can afford of the highest quality you can afford.
6. At this price point, buy the one you like best-sound and touch, regardless of price.
7. Either will be a nice piano for your daughter to learn on, but if you go into the 121 or 131 range, you start to get into a piano she can grow into as she improves.
8. A few thousand may seem like a lot of $$ but for a halfway-decent entry-level piano, it's reasonable. My search went: piano under $1000 (don't do that-hard to find a good one), then $2500, then $5000, then $7500, then $10000. For $3000-$5000, you'll fine student-quality 43/45" pianos, $5000+ will get you into the 48" range.Now, I would not hesitate to look at $25,000 pianos and would not consider that "too much."
9. Pramberger dealer and Knabe dealer may have different ideas of profit margin needed to stay in business. There might be difference on how they've financed their pianos. There might be differences on how well the pianos were prepped.

Shauna,

I'm pretty sure the JP118 model number refers to a model built by Young Chang. The Samick built Prambergers have different sizes and numbers. Do you have the serial number?

Steve Cohen or Jeff Dunmire could confirm or deny this.

RE: I'm pretty sure the JP118 model number refers to a model built by Young Chang. The Samick built Prambergers have different sizes and numbers. Do you have the serial number?

Michael, I don't have the serial number but I'll look into it. When I go onto the Pramberger website to see the JP118 model, the SMC name and link is at the bottom of the web page so I assumed that it was Samick. As well, the brochure I have says that Pramberger joined SMC family in 2004 and in 2005 JP Prambergers are introduced to the world of premium pianos - the brochure I have says it was printed 1/2006. Again, I'm assuming it is SMC by looking at the brochure but I'll have to look into this - Thanks for pointing this out.

MartinJ,
thanks for the wealth of info. You mentioned "There might be differences on how well the pianos were prepped. " What exactly do you mean by this - I am not familar with prepping a piano... could you please explain or if this is in another post direct me to it.
Thanks

Shauna,

You're correct.. this is a Samick model. I did not think they kept the JP designation in the model numbers.

Prepping refers to the adjustments that take place after a piano has been manufactured, often by the dealer. This includes things such as regulation (adjusting the action mechanism); voicing (includes a lot of different things such as needling the hammers to produce a pleasing tone); tuning; etc.

You can take two "identical" pianos out of the box, and if you properly prep one but leave the other as is, you might swear they were two completely different models.

Prepping takes time and money on the part of the dealer, so many dealerships either skip this part (especially on lower-end pianos that will presumably be bought by customers who won't know about, or ask for, prepping) or do as little as necessary to sell the piano.

The bottom line is that prepping can make such a big difference to the sound and feel of the piano that most of us would strongly advise never buying a piano you haven't tried out personally.

I would seriously consider a nice digital stage piano and save up to get a bigger (5'6") piano when you can. I know many great pianists that have stage pianos at home. There is no shame in that. I wish I had one.

If you have to have an acoustic piano well, I would suggest the Knabe -- if for no other reason than I had a nice Knabe before I got my grand.

Ummm...

This Knabe is made by Samick and likely has no relationship to the respected Knabe consoles made in the US back in the fifties.

Go for a real (acoustic) piano. Digitals don't have the life span of acoustic pianos. For some odd reason the keyboards begin to go bad. Perhaps there is something plastic or rubber in the imitation action that deteriorates with age. Yes, I know. A thousand "gigging" musicians will write to say that their digital with keys made by F---- is moved every night and has lasted several years. But the problem here seems to be age-related deterioration. That is my experience with our piano lab. And then there is the potential problem of what happens when the manufacturer, if still in business, is incapable of supplying a needed chip.

Shauna, Which piano did you PREFER? Don't worry about where, when, who, etc.. Which one did you like? If you perceive a difference in sound, might be okay to consider something different actually creating the sound (parts, woods, etc).

A couple of months back there was a discussion around stencil pianos. One of the regulars whom I respect greatly posted that, when Samick acquires a name, they also acquire the designs associated with that name (I think soundboard or scale designs).

So, whilst the Knabe is made by Samick, I'd guess that their website is accurate-the piano is a Knabe design (hence the references to the Knabe history, while a stretch, are probably accurate), likewise the Prambergers have Pramberger designs. Cosmetically the 2 pianos [edit-"may]look the same," but internally I'd suspect there are albeit small differences, but differences nonetheless. [this is fair to edit per Mark S.' comments below-I don't know if this piano actually has a Knabe design but it may at some level-this is an area that one of the techs or designers would know more about]

Some manufacturers have a piano with identical internal parts, manufactured at different sites, using cheaper cabinetry, hence the lower priced piano really is "the same" design-wise as it's higher priced counterpart but manufactured with lower grade components and labor. Some other true "stencil" pianos are exactly alike with different decals.

In this case, both are Samicks in terms of parent company, but I think manufactured by different divisions within the company. I'd suspect the scales are a little different although both have solid spruce soundboards that look to be manufactured by Bolduc, a respected company, and then yes the Knabe brochure does describe agraffes.

However, at this price, I'd say what I said earlier-buy the one that sounds and feels best to you.

Also-you might consider a plainer looking piano-in the "school" models (like the 121s), you get a plain piano that plays well but aren't paying for the woodwork. Plus you get front legs that are much less prone to break. If you read the Larry Fine Piano book you'll get all this and more!

MartinJ,

Whoa, slow down. The Knabe website says that the 58 and 64 grands are original Knabe scale designs, as one might have guessed from the old 5' 8" and 6' 4" Knabes. But the other grands are clearly described as Klaus Fenner designs and it makes no claims for the verticals. I'll bet the 118 vertical (47") has nothing to do with the revered Knabe console (42"?) I remember from my youth.

Mark:

I would agree with you-I never wrote that a current Knabe is similar to the Knabe of your youth-only that there probably is some link between Knabe (Samick) and something linked to Knabe whenever Samick acquired the Knabe name. There were a couple of definitives in that post above that I've softened-I don't know the facts of manufacturing design, and if I did, I don't know about these 2 specific pianos.

I was just trying to illustrate for Shauna that, while the 2 pianos really look identical, I would think at some level there is a design difference-I'll be the first to admit I'd have no idea what to look for to find out if that was true. I also was fairly careful, I thought, in couching my post with clarifiers like, "I'd suspect" and "albeit a small one."

I know your credentials Mark and know you know more about this than I do, but I was also just trying to help Shauna get ideas on other factors to read about to try to get to the bottom of, "what exactly is the difference between 2 pianos manufactured by what looks to be the same company, that look and spec almost exactly alike, but have a big difference in price."

There are many inquiries like hers, and I've seen and done the PW standard of "read the book, search the archives," and was simply trying to point her to other discussions that have occurred on PW that might help her differentiate, if that was important.

I still stand by something I wrote a few days ago, "buy the one you like best," especially because while we don't know what prices she's been quoted, I think we're looking at pianos in the $3500-$5500 range, in the scheme of pianos not that big a difference...but, if she really wants to know "what's different?" she has some ideas of things she might ask about-if the 2 pianos are basically identical-especially on soundboard and scale design, then they are almost stencil pianos (or would it be fair to say, "they are stencils") and it does become pretty clear that the less expensive one is the way to go. Like I said, I don't know about the pianos, but I would suspect given the names on each, that there are subtle design differences. It still comes down, at some point to, which one do you like the sound and feel of best, and is that piano at a price you find fair?

Oh yeah, one more thing.

Mark S and I can have a couple of posts in this thread where we clarify different issues that strike us, but I also sometimes wonder if we're just "posting to the wind."

After about 2 days, sometimes one never knows if the original poster has even seen the replies or if the replies were helpful!

Since the Pramberger is significantly cheaper I'd recommend it over the Knabe.

Steve Cohen could have answered these questions in one post. Where is he?

Today I will be playing a real Knabe, a Baltimore 5' 8" that was poorly rebuilt perhaps ten to fifteen years ago. It certainly deserved better.

Thanks everyone for you thoughts. I'm back from holidays and I've ordered Larry Fine's book which should help. Even though my daughter starts lessons in about 4 weeks I've decided not to rush and buy a piano b/c I need one. I will spend the time that I need to find a piano that will fit my budget and educate myself more on what is out there. This really is a great site. I'm gaining a ton of knowledge reading others posts. Thanks again!!!
Shauna

Note that a three-digit number like 118 in both uprights and grands is often the overall size of the piano in centimeters, so there are bound to be accidental duplications of model designations.

Just divide by 2.5 for inches: 118cm is 47" (or think ski lengths!).

--Cy--