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#2102688 - 06/14/13 11:06 PM Wannabe Piano Tuners Beware...
Gary Fowler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 375
If you think tuning pianos is easy money, forget it! It takes years to build a reputation as a good piano technician. Learn to set a temperment. If you can't set a temperment, you are a wannabe, PERIOD!
_________________________
Making the world a better sounding place, one piano at a time...

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#2102690 - 06/14/13 11:12 PM Re: Wannabe Piano Tuners Beware... [Re: Gary Fowler]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3925
Loc: Rockford, IL
Thanks, Dad. Your encouragement is infectious.

cough cough
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2102693 - 06/14/13 11:24 PM Re: Wannabe Piano Tuners Beware... [Re: Gary Fowler]
Gary Fowler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 375
I am all about encouragment. I am encouraging tuner wannabe's to just learn to set a temperment. It's an art. But when you learn it, it will make you an excellent life
_________________________
Making the world a better sounding place, one piano at a time...

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#2102711 - 06/15/13 12:08 AM Re: Wannabe Piano Tuners Beware... [Re: Gary Fowler]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1665
Loc: Chicagoland
Originally Posted By: Gary Fowler
If you think tuning pianos is easy money, forget it! It takes years to build a reputation as a good piano technician. Learn to set a temperment. If you can't set a temperment, you are a wannabe, PERIOD!


While that may have been true in the past, there is growing documentation that people without any temperament skills are able to tune at a level above what was 'normal' for a good number of aural techs just a few decades ago...
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#2102723 - 06/15/13 01:06 AM Re: Wannabe Piano Tuners Beware... [Re: Gary Fowler]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2187
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Once you understand how all the intervals intersect, and how inharmonicity shifts these intersections so as to enable optimal octave spread, temperament is easy. UNISONS are difficult! And yes, all tuning is unison tuning.

It is the control of the tuning pin's elasticity that requires careful neuromuscular control.

And yes, using an ETD can greatly help develop those skills. But I must admit, being able to do superb aural tuning is a foundation for professionalism. Being able to use an ETD in addition to that skill level makes ones professionalism more robust by having more tools at your disposal.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2102758 - 06/15/13 03:27 AM Re: Wannabe Piano Tuners Beware... [Re: Gary Fowler]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7871
Loc: France
Being able to judge what propose an EDT is certainly more.

In the end, tuning with an ETD at real professional level mean doing the job twice, once to use the ETD to install tension (a pro tuner does not need that but it may help for low basses may be) then passing all the tuning by ear.

Sound more as a complication to me, but I used Tune lab lately to bring to 442 a grand that had slept under 440 so I was sure of not modifying too much the basses later (even if I am unsure it make such a difference)

Pleased to see that using pin tension is no more considered as foolish as it was some years ago wink
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2102872 - 06/15/13 11:40 AM Re: Wannabe Piano Tuners Beware... [Re: Gary Fowler]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3925
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Gary Fowler
I am all about encouragment. [...]


Well, Gary, I find that somewhat difficult to believe, since your recent posting history has left me wondering whether you've taken the time to smell the peonies before the rain washed them into the ground.

Originally Posted By: Gary Fowler
[...] I am encouraging tuner wannabe's to just learn to set a temperment. It's an art. But when you learn it, it will make you an excellent life


Perhaps, then, you can share some pointers that might actually help those who are on the path to learning. Allow me:

Haddorff Postcard No. 6, "Piano Tuning Made Easy"

Andy Strong
Student
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2102929 - 06/15/13 02:28 PM Re: Wannabe Piano Tuners Beware... [Re: Gary Fowler]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2040
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Andy, please don't take the bait... You have one of the best helpers at your side already, and your piano work is not about "easy money" anyway.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2102936 - 06/15/13 02:45 PM Re: Wannabe Piano Tuners Beware... [Re: Mark R.]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3925
Loc: Rockford, IL
Thanks, Mark! I couldn't resist sharing what I've learned, though. wink
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2102987 - 06/15/13 04:54 PM Re: Wannabe Piano Tuners Beware... [Re: Cinnamonbear]
woodog Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 402
Loc: Bowling Green, KY
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Thanks, Mark! I couldn't resist sharing what I've learned, though. wink


:-)

Sharing is good.

Forrest
_________________________
-------------------
current studies:
Debussy: Suite Bergamasque
Bach 848, 866
Schumann Op. 15

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#2103013 - 06/15/13 06:32 PM Re: Wannabe Piano Tuners Beware... [Re: Gary Fowler]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Piano Tuning - 101

Lather
Rinse
Repeat
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2103130 - 06/16/13 12:22 AM Re: Wannabe Piano Tuners Beware... [Re: Gary Fowler]
Gary Fowler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 375
I actually believe guys can use a machine(or an app) and set a decent temperment. But it's about more than a temperment. It's about the dedication and perseverance it prepresents to REALLY learn tuning. I have been at this a long time. The tuner friends of mine(all who tuned with a machine, God love em) from 20 or 30 years ago have one thing in common.... None of them are in the piano business anymore! Learning to set a temperament by ear represents the love one has for the tuning of pianos. Honestly, if I used a machine to tune, it would take all the fun out of it! Tuning pianos isn't even about making money[at least not for me]
_________________________
Making the world a better sounding place, one piano at a time...

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#2103191 - 06/16/13 05:31 AM Re: Wannabe Piano Tuners Beware... [Re: RonTuner]
Goof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 357
Loc: UK
Ron Tuner: I like your videos. Now! how about a slow motion capture of an actual upright's action working.
I've searched the web and there is ZILCH=nothing!
Nothing that is a real action in motion.
PLEASE!

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#2103196 - 06/16/13 06:31 AM Re: Wannabe Piano Tuners Beware... [Re: Gary Fowler]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7871
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Gary Fowler
I actually believe guys can use a machine(or an app) and set a decent temperment. But it's about more than a temperment. It's about the dedication and perseverance it prepresents to REALLY learn tuning. I have been at this a long time. The tuner friends of mine(all who tuned with a machine, God love em) from 20 or 30 years ago have one thing in common.... None of them are in the piano business anymore! Learning to set a temperament by ear represents the love one has for the tuning of pianos. Honestly, if I used a machine to tune, it would take all the fun out of it! Tuning pianos isn't even about making money[at least not for me]


Agreed, and , may be strangely, learning to listen for a temperament open the ears as well for other things.

The abuse of ETD can lend to disinterest, I noticed that too.

and you never really know if you would have done differently in the end, so you persuade yourself "how good is it" "how precise", etc... and stop really listening
(in case you knew how to listen before then).

That said, a very good tool to visualise the string move, to see iof you are stable or not, it probably can help a lot when no teatcher is availeable, but ity can bring you to dead ends.

I am a little fautive as I pushed friends to use one , and 2 of them, I hear now in their tunings, they could do a hair better without the machine.
One is very conscious and do it "for the facility"
The other does not really hear that there is something "generic" in the justness he use.

In the absence of the ETD they would have evolved differently, I suppose.

All the best
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2103222 - 06/16/13 08:57 AM Re: Wannabe Piano Tuners Beware... [Re: Goof]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1665
Loc: Chicagoland
Hmmm - How would I do slow motion....??? I've got just real basic gear without any post-production skills.(like what software?) I do have a grand action and a spinet action model that would let me play with this. Good idea!

I suppose I could just do a step-motion, or set up a screw-type something to press the key in a really controlled manner to point out the chain of events that happens as the action goes through the motion of playing?
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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