Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) Yamaha CP4 Rebate
Yamaha CP4 Rebate
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
138 registered (Almaviva, anotherscott, ahoffmann, accordeur, 36251, 36 invisible), 1603 Guests and 15 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#2102954 - 06/15/13 03:20 PM Hasche-Mann accents
troglodyte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/04/05
Posts: 259
Loc: Uppsala, Sweden
In Schumann op 15.3 "Hasche-Mann" Peters edition there are sfp markings on the first beats on m1, m3 etc. There is no such marking on the second beat of m4 even though it is similar (B/F# - D - B - F#), and also not on the second beat of m8. Funny thing is, in the counterpart of m4 at the next part, ie the last measure but one, the second beat (ie at B/F#) is marked sf. Is this how it should be played? What is the distinction precisely between sfp and sf in this context?

Top
Ad 800 (Pearl River)
Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#2103009 - 06/15/13 06:17 PM Re: Hasche-Mann accents [Re: troglodyte]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1505
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Hi Trog,

Do you think there should be an interpretive distinction? Or is this just a case of Schumann (or his copyist) either 1- running out of ink, or 2- got careless in the copying, and the urtext edition you're reading from has to show the difference in the autograph but any decent editor would probably have changed it to keep it consistent?
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/greg-dempster/34/325/6b9/ (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2103362 - 06/16/13 02:14 PM Re: Hasche-Mann accents [Re: troglodyte]
troglodyte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/04/05
Posts: 259
Loc: Uppsala, Sweden
I have no idea which is the most probable. My instincts tell me to just ignore the last sf marking. But this is kind of a well known piece so I was wondering what people do.

Top
#2103573 - 06/16/13 10:21 PM Re: Hasche-Mann accents [Re: troglodyte]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18618
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: troglodyte
In Schumann op 15.3 "Hasche-Mann" Peters edition there are sfp markings on the first beats on m1, m3 etc. There is no such marking on the second beat of m4 even though it is similar (B/F# - D - B - F#), and also not on the second beat of m8. Funny thing is, in the counterpart of m4 at the next part, ie the last measure but one, the second beat (ie at B/F#) is marked sf. Is this how it should be played? What is the distinction precisely between sfp and sf in this context?


In my (old) Oliver Ditson edition, there are sfp markings on beat one of measures 1, 3, 5, 9, 11, 17, 19. By analogy, one might expect a similar marking on measure 7, although there isn't one. All the measures I mention begin with a quarter note tied to a sixteenth-note and it is the quarter note that is accented, so, by analogy, I don't know why you would expect an accent on the second beat of measures 4 and 8 where the right hand continues through sixteenth-notes. Playing this Vivace as indicated with an accent on the second beat of the measures you mentioned would certainly upset the rhythmic pulse somewhat, wouldn't it?

In other words, I don't think it's the tonality (B minor chord without the third) that dictates the place of the accent but the texture of the writing on those measures I mentioned.

That said and comparing the Urtext (Henle) with an edited (Schirmer) edition of the Op 12 Fantasiest├╝cke, the editor in the Schirmer (Harold Bauer) has taken the liberty to "correct" some of Schumann's rather obvious inconsistencies in dynamics that remain in the Urtext.

I would use the structure of the music and the initial markings of Schumann in your copy and then use your judgement for the remainder of the piece. Can you justify an sfp marking on the second beat of measure 4? As for the accent on beat two of the penultimate measure: I don't like it because it doesn't make contextual sense to me.

You have to use your own musical judgment, I guess, or consult other editions.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

Top
#2103689 - 06/17/13 06:02 AM Re: Hasche-Mann accents [Re: troglodyte]
troglodyte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/04/05
Posts: 259
Loc: Uppsala, Sweden
Thanks Bruce. I certainly agree to not accent the second beat of m4 and similar places. My problem is only with the final sf in the penultimate measure. It is there in all scores available on imslp, though I agree it does not make sense contextually. I'm glad I'm not the only one to find it strange.

Top

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
PianoSupplies.com is Piano World's Online Store
Please visit our store today.
circle of 5ths coaster
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Hal Leonard Teacher VIP
Hal Leonard Teacher VIP Your Source for Piano Music
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Having a hard time transitioning to a heavier key action
by symphonicfinale
03/30/15 07:06 PM
Teaching a Four Year Old
by DameMyra
03/30/15 06:39 PM
DP + Backing Track
by doremi
03/30/15 05:58 PM
Piano buying question
by Frost
03/30/15 05:21 PM
Haydn, die Sieben Worte
by Johan B
03/30/15 03:26 PM
What's Hot!!
Trade Regrets: Gary Trafton - Piano Rep
--------------------
Historic Piano Documents
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Forum Stats
78,711 Registered Members
43 Forums
162,853 Topics
2,390,417 Posts

Most users ever online: 15,252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2015 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission