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#2102954 - 06/15/13 03:20 PM Hasche-Mann accents
troglodyte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/04/05
Posts: 259
Loc: Uppsala, Sweden
In Schumann op 15.3 "Hasche-Mann" Peters edition there are sfp markings on the first beats on m1, m3 etc. There is no such marking on the second beat of m4 even though it is similar (B/F# - D - B - F#), and also not on the second beat of m8. Funny thing is, in the counterpart of m4 at the next part, ie the last measure but one, the second beat (ie at B/F#) is marked sf. Is this how it should be played? What is the distinction precisely between sfp and sf in this context?

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#2103009 - 06/15/13 06:17 PM Re: Hasche-Mann accents [Re: troglodyte]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1906
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Hi Trog,

Do you think there should be an interpretive distinction? Or is this just a case of Schumann (or his copyist) either 1- running out of ink, or 2- got careless in the copying, and the urtext edition you're reading from has to show the difference in the autograph but any decent editor would probably have changed it to keep it consistent?
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/greg-dempster/34/325/6b9/ (my day job)

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#2103362 - 06/16/13 02:14 PM Re: Hasche-Mann accents [Re: troglodyte]
troglodyte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/04/05
Posts: 259
Loc: Uppsala, Sweden
I have no idea which is the most probable. My instincts tell me to just ignore the last sf marking. But this is kind of a well known piece so I was wondering what people do.

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#2103573 - 06/16/13 10:21 PM Re: Hasche-Mann accents [Re: troglodyte]
BruceD Offline

Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 20125
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: troglodyte
In Schumann op 15.3 "Hasche-Mann" Peters edition there are sfp markings on the first beats on m1, m3 etc. There is no such marking on the second beat of m4 even though it is similar (B/F# - D - B - F#), and also not on the second beat of m8. Funny thing is, in the counterpart of m4 at the next part, ie the last measure but one, the second beat (ie at B/F#) is marked sf. Is this how it should be played? What is the distinction precisely between sfp and sf in this context?


In my (old) Oliver Ditson edition, there are sfp markings on beat one of measures 1, 3, 5, 9, 11, 17, 19. By analogy, one might expect a similar marking on measure 7, although there isn't one. All the measures I mention begin with a quarter note tied to a sixteenth-note and it is the quarter note that is accented, so, by analogy, I don't know why you would expect an accent on the second beat of measures 4 and 8 where the right hand continues through sixteenth-notes. Playing this Vivace as indicated with an accent on the second beat of the measures you mentioned would certainly upset the rhythmic pulse somewhat, wouldn't it?

In other words, I don't think it's the tonality (B minor chord without the third) that dictates the place of the accent but the texture of the writing on those measures I mentioned.

That said and comparing the Urtext (Henle) with an edited (Schirmer) edition of the Op 12 Fantasiestücke, the editor in the Schirmer (Harold Bauer) has taken the liberty to "correct" some of Schumann's rather obvious inconsistencies in dynamics that remain in the Urtext.

I would use the structure of the music and the initial markings of Schumann in your copy and then use your judgement for the remainder of the piece. Can you justify an sfp marking on the second beat of measure 4? As for the accent on beat two of the penultimate measure: I don't like it because it doesn't make contextual sense to me.

You have to use your own musical judgment, I guess, or consult other editions.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#2103689 - 06/17/13 06:02 AM Re: Hasche-Mann accents [Re: troglodyte]
troglodyte Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/04/05
Posts: 259
Loc: Uppsala, Sweden
Thanks Bruce. I certainly agree to not accent the second beat of m4 and similar places. My problem is only with the final sf in the penultimate measure. It is there in all scores available on imslp, though I agree it does not make sense contextually. I'm glad I'm not the only one to find it strange.

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