Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Equal temperament

Yep, and that is exactly what I said in my reply to Ed Foote.

To explore, as you say!

I tend to reserve that skill for aging sopranos and tenors and tell them nothing!

I read through this thread after bumping into the reference to Bb. Marty, there is an earlier post of yours where you write about a long conversation you had with a conductor:

I can see it for wind, and have talked to brass players. My other instrument is violin. Here are the characteristics of that instrument: The strings are G, D, A, E. This sets up certain patterns of resonance through sympathetic vibrations. You get a richer sound resonating through the entire instrument. It is not just the strings but the wood itself, which is chosen as tone wood. In general, keys with sharps in the signature work better than those with flats, because of this. It is not just that we can use more open strings as pitch reference for ease of playing. When I learned the Db major key, my teacher warned me that the whole thing would sound "dull". (So would C# major, ofc). In F major we still have: G, A, D, E as degrees 2,3,6,7, but I,IV,V are all notes that won't resonate in the instrument (F,Bb,C). After that, in flats keys, there are diminishing returns.

So I'm thinking that if you're looking at what happens with other instruments, you might want to look beyond wind into strings, for that side of it.

Keystring,

The comment you quoted was not by a conductor, but rather a tuner in Prague. It was his approach to the temperament center as selected for wind ensemble, rather than orchestra.

If you read this thread, there has been much discussion of the whys and wherefores of an orchestra tuning to A.

Because you've just gone and put a Bb-centered UT on you piano, to suit a composition in Bb major.

Really, a rather supreme irony:

You're contemplating tuning your piano for a composition in Bb, and then playing a composition in C (generally accepted as the home key for UTs or WTs!), for which your piano would eminently not be optimally tuned. In fact, on your Bb-tuned piano, C major and its dominant, G major, would sound very much like ET. (Which is, perhaps, why Ian asked you in the first place.)

On the other hand, you deem fit to degrade ET, which caters for all keys, as a "Johnny come lately".

[Edit: just reading the most recent responses. An ET remains an ET, independent of the pitch reference that was used to tune it. There are well-documented procedures for tuning ET from C or from A, and even from other notes. This technician's forum on PianoWorld has had some of these discussions before (starting point of the temperament octave - even a temperament 10th or temperament 12th). I know, because I asked a few of the many pursuant questions, and read the ensuing answers with great interest. So, I repeat: I see no reason to confuse pitch reference with the tonal center of whichever UT is chosen. It was already written here that A is chosen as tuning note because all string instruments have some form of A-string or suitable partial.]

IMO in a normal WT (invariably centered on C major of course) C major sounds better than C# major. So I play the C# major pieces of the WTC clavier in C instead because it sounds better. If I really had to play it in C# major I would retune the harpsichord centered on C#. This is what Gustav Leonhardt did in his landmark recording of the 48.

In WTC I the prelude in Eb minor is followed by the fugue in D# minor. Did you know the reason is the originals were written in E minor and D minor and Bach just transposed them to stuff them in the WTC? Makes you (at least me) think about arguments that the key and tuning was allegedly so important to the composer.

Also in Bach's cantata performances (by himself) the instruments were tuned a semitone below A440 (because he bought them from France) and the organ a semitone above. So in the scores you see the organ being written in a different key than the rest. How to reconcile that with the idea that the key of a piece is so important to the composer is beyond me.

Kees

Mark R. -

You have completely misunderstood what I have written. I'm not having my piano tuned to a non-equal temperament based from Bb because of any single composition, it is because it is the tuning center used in a Wind Ensemble. Obviously you have no familiarity with the Poulenc. It is all over the place harmonically. Though it can be analyzed harmonically and structurally, it is not identified by specific key.

The use of "Johnny-come-lately" in reference to ET is not disparaging, it is a matter of historical fact.

You seem to maintain that there is something wrong with basing a non-equal temperament on anything other than C. I am in the process of finding out if that it is true. I don't believe it is problematic at all.

My preference is tuning other than in ET. The temperament octave, in ET, could be placed anywhere and the results would be the same. It wouldn't matter what tuning fork is carried in the tuner's tool bag.

Kees,

There is a big difference between the necessities of a given performance and the intention of the composer. Odd compromises occur all the time.

Why would Bach write the Well Tempered Clavier if not to demonstrate that a keyboard could be tuned to accommodate all keys? Other than glorious music, that is its purpose. The result of his creation has led to what we now refer to as "key color." Our concepts of, and attitudes toward, keys which sound "dark," mysterious," or "bright" are based on understandings and labels which have been passed down through generations.

When Bach studied in Lüneburg, the available organs were of very divergent temperaments. The WTC seems to be an attempt at some sort of standardization of tuning for keyboard instruments. It is one of the hallmarks of the late Baroque.

Kees,
All of the Cantatas were written in closely related keys to C. For the most part Bach transposed, wrote, or sight transposed the organ part down a whole tone in order to match the nominal A=415 of the other instrumentalists, being that most of the organs he played were in the A=460-480 Hz range. I can't see a huge issue with colour in that case. The problem would be if the transposition had to be to a far key. I have haven't read anything to indicate he did that, but there is much (almost everything) that I don't know.

Greetings,
I hear it differently. The wider third of the C# (in most WT), really makes that prelude bright and aggressive. I have had a Yamaha Disklavier to use at a PTG convention, and it was tuned in fairly colorful WT. We played that C# stuff back and forth on C and C# and it was all agreed that the C# piece sounded a lot better in C# than in the calmer C. The Prelude in C sounded terrible when moved up to C#. I think Bach knew what he was doing, and I think he was suggesting ways to use the particular characteristics of each key in a well-tempered keyboard. Some compositions can move around, and did, but others really only shine in the original key.

>>Other than glorious music, that is its purpose. The result of his creation has led to what we now refer to as "key color." Our concepts of, and attitudes toward, keys which sound "dark," mysterious," or "bright" are based on understandings and labels which have been passed down through generations. <<

It may also be due to the subliminal effects of dissonance still at work, after all these years...
Regards,

Ah Yes -- And one of the reasons we still have war and conflict. Sometimes tradition overcomes reason. (No, that is not a lead in for ET enthusiasts!)

Perhaps to demonstrate very remote keys don't sound very good in a strong WT? Perhaps to show you need to retune the instrument on a different key center for for example C# major? Or, most likely to me, because it was a fashionable thing at the time to write collections of compositions in all keys. Eg Schickhard produced a set of 24 sonatas in all keys.

Perhaps. All I know for sure is nobody knows for sure why he wrote it.

Kees

Greetings,
I don't think it was written to show the need to retune, since playing the C# prelude on the most consonant center makes it a dull, lifeless piece. Many of those "strong" keys provide a beauty that isn't available without contrasts of harmonic values.

What is important is that we know all the plausible possibilities inre temperament, that Bach could have considered. And now, for the first time in history, we can listen to his compositions performed on all these varied approaches and make a value judgement based on our own tastes. Thus, rather than rejecting a temperament on theoretical grounds, we have to expose ourselves to the music and say what we prefer. I haven't heard more than 10 percent of listeners prefer Bach's music performed in ET when given a side by side choice with a WT, ( and I have presented this choice numerous times to classes of technicians and music teachers).

Try them all, make a choice, it is the way that the modern world offers a route to expand our horizons. Trying to ascertain what Bach had in mind by logical reason will only go so far, then we have only to describe our own sensual response. But, that is why music exists.
Regards,

Ed. Well said. A fitting end to this discussion one would hope..

Hi!

In a good unequal temperament C# provides a key in which thinks can skate, as on ice, without foundation or sticking harmonically together. B major too.

The whole point about Bach's well tempered tuning was that each key was equally usable, not necessarily that each key was exactly the same.

Look up YouTube Chopin 24 preludes unequal temperament for how all keys are playable but all sound a little different.

The contrast for Bach was meantone, in which 4 major keys are most definitely unplayable. That contrast was a good temperament in which all keys were playable, not equal temperament in which they all sound the same

Best wishes

David P

The Chopin Preludes all sound different no matter what the temperament!

I suppose one could take a piece and transpose it into 12 different keys, and show that there is a difference, but I suspect most people would notice the difference in pitch. Or someone with a lot of time on their hands could tune the piano starting with a different pitch 12 times, and play the same piece over and over, showing the different colors that it makes. Even so, I think most people would get bored pretty quickly.