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#2088389 - 05/25/13 01:55 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Olek]
Tunewerk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 410
Loc: Boston, MA
Seems there's a lot of argument over whether iH changes enough to affect tuning alignment - in any case it's not really the topic. The question was why perfect tunings sometimes sound lifeless.

Nonetheless, all that you good tuners have to do is sit down at a piano, turn off your machines, and really hear the changes. I think you'll hear the temperament audibly change in behavior as you tune it.

I used the word inharmonicity in my description of this loosely because it describes the position of partials over a string. This is not equation behavior: No model will tell you the answer! You have to sit in front of a piano and just listen.

My feeling on it is that alignment of energy in the spectrum causes specific entrainment of frequencies - whether through the soundboard or just between strings themselves. In addition to tension changes and movement of the bearing points into speaking lengths, these are all inharmonic effects.

No formula or model is published on this in a way that is comprehensive and calculable.

But anyway, you guys do it, and share what you hear.
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Unity of tone through applied research.

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#2088393 - 05/25/13 02:05 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: alfredo capurso]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
In this sense, I would not take the worse of what theory, maths and "science" can offer, for instance I would not confuse ETDs figures, how exact they seem to be, with the exactitude needed and that we are able to achieve aurally.

Whatever the numbers may be, in reality isn't the main effect of inharmonicity that there is no such thing as the OP's "dead on" interval?


Hello Ian,

It's nice to find you here.

I need to make sure that I get your point correctly: are you wondering.. due to iH, there isn't such a thing as "dead on" intervals..., meaning that because of iH it is no possible to think/talk about "perfectly in tune" tunings?

Please believe me, it is my poor English... if I'm not on your point, would you please re-word it?



Hello Alfredo,

Nice to read you , I suggest (just to find something to detract from you wink that it is very possible that, due to the variation of the iH peception threshold with age, the "justness" perceived will depend of the age of the listener, younger people being more sensitive to higher frequencies, and then hear more the Ih of the bass than adults, for instance.

100% agreed about tone circulation within the tuning as a mean to enhance the spectra.

That was the discovering in the 70's that a pure frequency based tuning device can send us nowhere, and that the iH must be taken in account in a way or another.

Then derivations of "justness" have been tempted, that can be a help for the tuner, anyway a tool for him to produce a result.

I suggest that the pattern that is the result of those tuning schemes differ so ever slightly from what a tuner is actually doing, in the sense they push the tuner to listen less to consonance in the instrument, at worst they make him listen to a partial match, a worst they make him tune octaves he would not have tuned in absence of the ETD.


I may add that the tuner's hearing is also stamping the tuning, so it is important to have some points to refer on, as resonance, and clarity.



Edited by Olek (05/25/13 02:17 AM)
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#2088400 - 05/25/13 02:52 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Mwm]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
Nevermind,

I see what's happening. The Verituner data is pointing out the error that would be introduced if one simply used the IH values read from the piano strings when they were 50 cents or 20 cents flat. This is an argument for remeasuring after the first big pitch raise. I have no problem with that.

But what we're talking about here is the error that would be introduced by the IH if you measured the string at initial state where it were already very very close to pitch, say just 1 cent flat. The effect is numerically calculable, sure, but it's infinitesmal and inaudible.

I agree. I also am making some assumptions that high end piano makers consider iH when they choose the scaling to be used, the type wire, type and number of wound strings, and so on. I also assume that they have in mind some temperament that will be used such that all their design work will not be in vain. Therefore, I wonder, when a tuner sets a well temperament that is somewhat far removed from quasi-ET, if it is possible to make the instrument as sweet sounding as the designer intended. Many contributors here at PW have argued that iH is the same, no matter what temperament is used. I may be picky, but that does not seem to be the case. ( Certainly in the case of using a period pitch base, 432, or 415, for example, one is really screwing around with the design. )


It is pushed a little far in regard of UT but I have envisaged that the preferred temperament sequence and the inherent imbalance obtained that I noticed could favor a better transition betwenn treble and basses (where iH jump is more noticeable, even on a concert piano there is some)

IH is well known since only a little time

Piano manufacturers have some choices in the design but it depends first from the size of the instrument

They use an iH limit, (they should, anyway) not to be overpassed, and some have tried to lower the iH so the tone would be purer (or they tried to gain a maximum energy output, hence raised the tension and stretched more the wire, lowering the iH )

If all known parameters are taken in account, in the end there seem to exist one scale allowed for an instrument size, and that is clearly noticed in many today designs
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#2088409 - 05/25/13 03:36 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Withindale]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1062
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
In this sense, I would not take the worse of what theory, maths and "science" can offer, for instance I would not confuse ETDs figures, how exact they seem to be, with the exactitude needed and that we are able to achieve aurally.

Whatever the numbers may be, in reality isn't the main effect of inharmonicity that there is no such thing as the OP's "dead on" interval?

I need to make sure that I get your point correctly: are you wondering.. due to iH, there isn't such a thing as "dead on" intervals..., meaning that because of iH it is no possible to think/talk about "perfectly in tune" tunings?

Hi Alfredo,

Yes, because the partials are not harmonic no one can say exactly what "perfectly in tune" means. You have to listen to the instrument and find what sounds best, as you said in your recent post:

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Also in my opinion, as Isaac reports and suggests, it won't be only tuning... meaning that correct frequencies (which would make a piano sound "in tune") should go along with tone quality (read color) and energy circulation (resonance).


Hi Ian,

There I meant to say that for the instrument to sound at its best, a perfect tuning is not going to be enough, meaning that a (1) "perfect tuning" is only one of three principal factors: the other two factors are: (2) "timbre/color", related to the tone partials and the spectral envelope; (3) the amount of spendable energy and the way energy is released and maintained.

Those three factors may be seen as the effect of tuning, voicing and regulation, but what I mean to say is that if the target is "what sounds best", we must consider those factors as one.

Can a mediocre tuning make a piano sound dull?

Yes: easy to think that intervals can be all over the place, that beats can be annoying, or that dead-on unisons can suffocate the sound's sustain.

Will a "perfect tuning" be enough for a piano sound at its best?

Nope, because what is more important is that the piano can... sing, that the piano be sensitive to touch-dynamics, that it has a rich and generous and univocal sound/tone quality all across the keyboard, and keeps its whole shape reasonably.

..."...no one can say exactly what "perfectly in tune" means."...

If you like, I will be happy to expand on this... blush ...not here though. But let me say that, for what I can see, the problem arising here is different (no offence intended): it is how to move from an amateur to a professional attitude.

Best wishes,

Alfredo
.
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#2088425 - 05/25/13 05:40 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: alfredo capurso]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1940
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
..."...no one can say exactly what "perfectly in tune" means."...

If you like, I will be happy to expand on this... blush ...not here though. But let me say that, for what I can see, the problem arising here is different (no offence intended): it is how to move from an amateur to a professional attitude.


Hi Alfredo,

I thought you might raise this point when I wrote no one can say exactly what "perfectly in tune" means.

Tunewerk has now expressed what I had in mind:

Originally Posted By: Tunewerk
Nonetheless, all that you good tuners have to do is sit down at a piano, turn off your machines, and really hear the changes. I think you'll hear the temperament audibly change in behavior as you tune it.

I used the word inharmonicity in my description of this loosely because it describes the position of partials over a string. This is not equation behavior: No model will tell you the answer! You have to sit in front of a piano and just listen.


I'd say the result of listening and tuning with the exactitude you mentioned is as close to "perfectly in tune" as you can get. Others may hear things differently, as Isaac suggests, so their conceptions of "perfectly in tune" will not be quite the same.
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Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2088430 - 05/25/13 06:20 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Withindale]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1062
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
..."...no one can say exactly what "perfectly in tune" means."...

If you like, I will be happy to expand on this... blush ...not here though. But let me say that, for what I can see, the problem arising here is different (no offence intended): it is how to move from an amateur to a professional attitude.


Hi Alfredo,

I thought you might raise this point when I wrote no one can say exactly what "perfectly in tune" means.

Tunewerk has now expressed what I had in mind:

Originally Posted By: Tunewerk
Nonetheless, all that you good tuners have to do is sit down at a piano, turn off your machines, and really hear the changes. I think you'll hear the temperament audibly change in behavior as you tune it.

I used the word inharmonicity in my description of this loosely because it describes the position of partials over a string. This is not equation behavior: No model will tell you the answer! You have to sit in front of a piano and just listen.


I'd say the result of listening and tuning with the exactitude you mentioned is as close to "perfectly in tune" as you can get. Others may hear things differently, as Isaac suggests, so their conceptions of "perfectly in tune" will not be quite the same.


Buongiorno Ian,

I shall expand on what you wrote in a different thread.

Let's keep in touch,

Alfredo
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alfredo

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#2088505 - 05/25/13 10:59 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: DoelKees]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2374
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I would like to understand what mechanism is operating to "change" the inharmonicity of a string when tuning? I don't know any that would produce that outcome.


Good question, Ed! I was wondering the same thing myself.

Before speculating on a mechanism it may be good to first check if the IH actually changes at all, which is easy to do: measure IH with, say, Tunelab five times, detune the string, and measure again 5 times. We repeat measurements to get an idea of the inaccuracy of the measurement.
Kees


Doel, what exactly do you mean by "detune the string" as far as how much? My understanding is that if a string is off more than 10-20 cents from its intended pitch, it is a given that the iH will change. If I come across a piano that is out more than this, I typically correct the notes before I sample them in RCT. The users manual suggests this also.

OK, show the numbers then if you think it's "a given".

Kees


I haven't run the iH numbers by themselves in comparison but i can attest to the fact that RCT will render a slightly different tuning on a piano that is sampled before a pitch raise. There are numerous mentions about string tension being a factor in iH on strings. I hate using Wiki for citing but even there it states under iH that...

The inharmonicity of a string depends on its physical characteristics, such as tension, stiffness, and length. For instance, a stiff string under low tension (such as those found in the bass notes of small upright pianos) exhibits a high degree of inharmonicity, while a thinner string under higher tension (such as a treble string in a piano) or a more flexible string (such as a gut or nylon string used on a guitar or harp) will exhibit less inharmonicity
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#2088513 - 05/25/13 11:23 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Emmery]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2062
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Since the topic is about very fine tuning, and some posters have declared that they can hear the IH change while tuning a fine unison, the numbers submitted show that is not reality. No one can hear .0001 cent much less measure it accurately in a real world piano.

I will repeat my first point: If the piano sounds lifeless when tuned perfectly; that is WHAT the piano sounds like. Voicing is more likely to improve this condition if the customer wants it. But I too find some pianos to have a too clinical sound-but I notice it even when the piano is out of tune.
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#2088595 - 05/25/13 01:54 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Tunewerk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 410
Loc: Boston, MA
Interesting opinion, Ed. I agree that .0001 cent is clearly not audible - even .1 cent is hard to hear correctly and consistently! Above A6, where approx. 1 CPS = 1 CEN, I'd argue 1/10 CPS becomes clearly audible. However, what the equation is declaring may not be the only factor in change. This is an important point I believe.

One more thing I wanted to add, is that there are tipping points in the audible spectrum where a smaller fraction of a cent may be audible. It's not linear. For example, when you get very close to a strong partial alignment, there might be a powerful difference in as small as .1 cent (guessing here). In other areas, you might be able to move a whole cent and not much will be done to improve or worsen the tuning.

I don't agree with your second point.. but that's hard to know over the forums because often what one person has in their head is different than another.

Originally Posted By: Mwm
In the low bass, say around F1, one cent is just a tiny fraction of one Hz, yet many partials higher where, that same one cent is several Hz, causing beats. Is it possible that a tuner, in trying to tune both wound strings on F1 so they sound good together, may end up with the strings far enough out that each string's iH is different enough to make a good partial alignment difficult?


Thought I'd just add this here and save a post. Yes, one cent near F1 equals approximately 1/40 of a cycle per second, but if you look at the 6th partial at about 262Hz (or C4), that same deviation causes movement 6 times amplified. In the range of C4, each cent is about 1/6Hz.

Good bass tuning is defined by the precise placement of these partials, but the quality of the partials is different. They allow a little more movement because the very high frequencies are weak. Also keep in mind that at C4, we may be tuning to the 4th partial, or where each cent is about 1/2Hz in real value.

Here's to a good weekend! Cheers.


Edited by Tunewerk (05/25/13 07:25 PM)
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#2088640 - 05/25/13 04:10 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Tunewerk]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
In the low bass, say around F1, one cent is just a tiny fraction of one Hz, yet many partials higher where, that same one cent is several Hz, causing beats. Is it possible that a tuner, in trying to tune both wound strings on F1 so they sound good together, may end up with the strings far enough out that each string's iH is different enough to make a good partial alignment difficult?

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#2088696 - 05/25/13 05:22 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Mwm]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21525
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: Mwm
In the low bass, say around F1, one cent is just a tiny fraction of one Hz, yet many partials higher where, that same one cent is several Hz, causing beats. Is it possible that a tuner, in trying to tune both wound strings on F1 so they sound good together, may end up with the strings far enough out that each string's iH is different enough to make a good partial alignment difficult?


It depends on what you mean by good, but that is where one's ear comes into play. However, whether it is inharmonicity, or just because it is so difficult to tune to a tiny fraction of a Hertz is difficult to say.
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#2088710 - 05/25/13 05:39 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Mwm]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1062
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Is it possible that a tuner, in trying to tune...strings...so they sound good together, may end up with the strings far enough out that each string's iH is different enough to make a good partial alignment difficult?


Mwm, please do not be upset... I have modified your original sentence just because, in my opinion, it explains well what may happen all across the keyboard.

In my opinion, yours is a good point indeed.

Cheers,

Alfredo
.
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alfredo

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#2088729 - 05/25/13 05:54 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Mwm]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1062
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
Is this for real?

One incomprehensible post...

followed by a post that draws an incorrect conclusion from the evidence it cites...

followed by a post containing suggested reading, the contents of which indicate how to calculate cents with nomograms, log tables, or a slide rule.
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
Is this for real?

One incomprehensible post...

followed by a post that draws an incorrect conclusion from the evidence it cites...

followed by a post containing suggested reading, the contents of which indicate how to calculate cents with nomograms, log tables, or a slide rule.


Hi Chris,

In order to be helpful in correcting the misapprehensions to which you allude, could you be more specific in your criticism and provide a more accurate response to the query regarding changes in iH with a change in string tension as a result of a pitch change?

Thanks.


Hello Chris,

Have I missed your reply?
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alfredo

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#2088780 - 05/25/13 07:32 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: BDB]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1062
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: Mwm
In the low bass, say around F1, one cent is just a tiny fraction of one Hz, yet many partials higher where, that same one cent is several Hz, causing beats. Is it possible that a tuner, in trying to tune both wound strings on F1 so they sound good together, may end up with the strings far enough out that each string's iH is different enough to make a good partial alignment difficult?


It depends on what you mean by good, but that is where one's ear comes into play. However, whether it is inharmonicity, or just because it is so difficult to tune to a tiny fraction of a Hertz is difficult to say.


Yes, BDB, ..."..difficult to tune... difficult to say."
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#2089031 - 05/26/13 06:16 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: alfredo capurso]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Is it possible that a tuner, in trying to tune...strings...so they sound good together, may end up with the strings far enough out that each string's iH is different enough to make a good partial alignment difficult?


Mwm, please do not be upset... I have modified your original sentence just because, in my opinion, it explains well what may happen all across the keyboard.

In my opinion, yours is a good point indeed.

Cheers,

Alfredo
.


Yes it may relate really to the base of the process used when building unison.

WHy do they loss power when aging I am unsure, however.
May be simply at the tuning moment we refresh the string's terminations and bends, making them more "free".

Then the crispness and power of the attack is raised, immediately at tuning moment, and that seem to dissipate in time to a more "open" but less precise tone, that have anyway some sort of long term stability and will not change much then.

I mostly find strings that raised a bit, than the opposite, so "rebuilding" a tuning means very often only to add a little stress on tuning pin, and lower the tension in the front segment.

Acoustical stability may certainly be prooved, there is absolutely no reason it should not exist.
Certainly managing the phase between strings can be allowed, depending of the way the wire is manipulated, which one is tuned first, what unison "shape" is expected, etc.

Generally speaking I say that simply stating about "pitches" when talking of piano tone is making a simplification based on the fact that a +- precise pitch impression is perceived.

The article on pitch perception (comparing a non IH tone with different iH level) tones seem also to show that the pitch perception differs depending of the lenght of the tone.
http://www.acoustics.hut.fi/~mak/PUB/ICMC99may22.pdf

Unfortunately only a minimal number of listeners where available (hopefully 4 of them where piano tuners).
So no relation with the listener age is given there.

I would tend to believe that once a tuner's ear have been trained to hear a simplified tone (mostly fundamental) while tuning, to gain the ability again to hear the complete spectra, some efforts / training have to be done.

That may explain why many tuner find so difficult to analyse the tone of concert tuners. the ear is expecting something and something else is provided.

There is also a delay between attack and the partial spread that differs depending of the pianos, and that possibly explain how a tuner's ear is accustomed to a new piano after some notes have been tuned.
The ear detects the moment where the tone stabilize and is made more acute at this moment.
While tuning, that delay is shortened (how? why?) , but to realize that one may at last be conscious of it.
Hopefully this can be done "without thinking" but it is a big help to be conscious of the process as the ear can be more or less tired, acoustical conditions may favor a good hearing or no, the tuning model used may enhance the resonance more or less.
...
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#2091103 - 05/29/13 02:39 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Gary Fowler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 375
Tuners sometimes get to way over thinking things. At ALL times, your objective is to tune the temperment as perfectly and equally as can be tuned. Tune the octaves as closely as you can. But tuning 101, Be Damned sure to make the unisons beatless!.. This ain't rocket science
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#2091106 - 05/29/13 02:48 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
Tuners are sometime not at all interested at learning anything new, but they work at finesse of tone level more than rebuilders. I know first class rebuilders that are just acceptable tuners, also because tuning a large quantity of pianos regularly is part of the tuner's training (anyway up to some point as it seem that at some point the process is enough integrated and "spring back" as soon as you have to tune a piano.)

But what make a difference between them, there is a professional attitude,(with upgrading of knowledge all along one's life) and the attitude that consist to think that because no complaints, the job is certainly the best possible.

Not wanting to understand the effect on tone envelope of the ratio fundamental/partials is just missing some part of the job.

There where yet 15 years ago tuners that consistently tuned beatless dull unison, and I hear that sort of tone regularly on videos and even some professional recordings.

The difference is just striking for musicians and for tuners that learned it.

When the tuner ask himself " do I refine again with another pass" ? most often his understanding of sound construction is incomplete. (his ears may be tired also...)

Any musician that understood how the tone is "build" while tuning unison witnessed me that the dynamics and the global sounding of the instrument is changing a lot.

What do you do with the available power ? How do you shape the attack ? DO you want a tone that expands or that stay intimate near the piano ?

All those points are for a part, available to the tuner simply at tuning time.

Staying "neutral" enough so to allow the pianist to shape the tone himself of course, but if the only material you give him is a strong attack, a thin tone core, and restricted dynamics, he will get along with that only if he is good enough, or he will find the piano more pleasing after having played it a few hours, and then that mean the tone color was out of control of the tuner.

PS not to say that even very good tuners do not simply prefer not to analyse that too much, for them is is quite simple and straightforward, they see nothing new or nothing strange in that , theory and analysis at that level is not an area of interest for them (or this have to be kept private, which I understand too)


Edited by Olek (05/29/13 04:03 AM)
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#2092689 - 05/31/13 07:59 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
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#2092699 - 05/31/13 08:18 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Olek]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Isaac, by the time you're done over analyzing a single note, I bet I can tune five pianos and tune them well.
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#2092706 - 05/31/13 08:31 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2100
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Isaac, by the time you're done over analyzing a single note, I bet I can tune five pianos and tune them well.
Uh huh! +1
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#2092717 - 05/31/13 08:49 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Gary Fowler]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: Gary Fowler
Tuners sometimes get to way over thinking things. At ALL times, your objective is to tune the temperment as perfectly and equally as can be tuned. Tune the octaves as closely as you can. But tuning 101, Be Damned sure to make the unisons beatless!.. This ain't rocket science

Actually, it is rocket science. Mid-course corrections still have to be made for gravitationally-based space travel due to the complexity of the variables. The number of varibles affecting the perceived pitch of a given note on the piano is also very large. There is a reasonablly large range of variability even in the pitch of a single string over the decay period. How one tunes beatless unisons so that they sound beautiful is the issue here, not that they are beatless.

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#2092732 - 05/31/13 09:23 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Mwm]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Originally Posted By: Gary Fowler
Tuners sometimes get to way over thinking things. At ALL times, your objective is to tune the temperment as perfectly and equally as can be tuned. Tune the octaves as closely as you can. But tuning 101, Be Damned sure to make the unisons beatless!.. This ain't rocket science

There is a reasonablly large range of variability even in the pitch of a single string over the decay period. How one tunes beatless unisons so that they sound beautiful is the issue here, not that they are beatless.

Any pitch is subjective in the sense of our own sound. However, we have to do it according to the rules of own temperament. We must to meet the customer's sonic receptors
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#2092741 - 05/31/13 09:39 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Mwm]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2374
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Mwm
[quote=Gary Fowler] There is a reasonablly large range of variability even in the pitch of a single string over the decay period.


I agree. There is a portion/window of the decay period I concentrate on for target pitch about a second after the initial attack. Some quality pianos are very stable comparatively. Poorer pianos will often start sharp, stabilize and then roll flat on decay and sometimes you will see what I call a "shimmerring effect". The string will shift sharp and flat around a referance pitch like an oscillation. ETD's lend themselves nicely to to get these centered if the issue cannot be fixed.
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#2092743 - 05/31/13 09:42 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Mwm
[quote=Gary Fowler] There is a reasonablly large range of variability even in the pitch of a single string over the decay period.

Poorer pianos will often start sharp, stabilize and then roll flat on decay and sometimes you will see what I call a "shimmerring effect". The string will shift sharp and flat around a referance pitch like an oscillation. ETD's lend themselves nicely to to get these centered if the issue cannot be fixed.

Familiar me feeling of the "twinkling"
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#2104178 - 06/18/13 01:58 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
I finally came with a resumed definition of a unison of 3 strings :

2 strings are tuned for the excitation they receive from the hammer impact.

The last string is tuned by its consonance, (together with the consonance it may create/receive from duplexes or other strings in the piano - "passive coupling" ?).

On 2 strings unison (basses) the consonance is tuned at the same time than the attack, so there is a mix going on between how much hammer rebound is tuned and how much the spectra is cleaned.

But wound strings are so much different one another they induce more presence of high partials so no 3d string is necessary to "raise the iH". (which is the result of coupling the partials)

It is said that "tuning the (front) duplexes" is done within the tuning pin flex. And it sound strange at first (particularly if you do not take in account pin flex during tuning).

But I suggest that the back duplexes and backscales are possibly also manipulated when consonance level is raised.

SO to say that this is the level of control one need to pretend to professional tuning quality (as it is the standard for a quality job)

About back duplexes, possibly direct manipulations there may help, more probably manipulation at the bridge pins prior to tuning may help then to be more reactive (if any tension can be allowed to even - usually some amount does not pass the bridge, hence bridge tilt)

Suggestion, is that out of the "generic" tunings provided by the ETD and that sound somewhat strange for that reason, the amount of life and consonance left within unison raise a lot the global impression of "singing quality", to the point that even a little dull justness is more unsuspected.








Edited by Olek (06/18/13 07:18 AM)
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#2104501 - 06/18/13 04:39 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
As you can see there are also French tuners that do not tune the attack.
http://www.deezer.com/track/9909710

Brad Mehldau in Marciac - the sound is "flat" without contrast.

I even feel the pianist not at ease despite his professionalism. (once heard pianist missing notes due to that kind of tone)

What I call a dull unison tuning. no energy gestion.

SImilar : http://youtu.be/V4a9_C3EZgw

It is no "SO BAD" just something misses.

Who hear that ?
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