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I am new to the technical aspects of the piano, so please forgive my ignorance! But I am curious about the change in soundboard sound as it ages. My background is classical guitar. High quality classical guitars generally have sound boards made out of cedar or spruce. With a cedar classical guitar is pretty much "there" sound wise from when you buy it. However a spruce classical guitar does not really come into its full rich sound until after a couple of years of regular playing. Is this true also of spruce piano soundboards? Also, does it take a lot longer because piano soundboards are so much thicker than a guitar?
I bring this up because I bought a 1978 Charles Walter upright for $700 from a private party early 2012 to learn to learn to play piano (at 60 years old). I heard that Walter made a good piano but I did not want to spend a lot as I did not know how learning piano at 60 would go - but I figured that it was hard to go wrong at $700, especially after a tech friend said that it was in good tunable condition. But it was not only the price; to me the piano sounded bright and alive. However, after getting it home and playing it a while, it was too "alive"; or I should really say it was too bright and it hurt my ears. The hammers were very hard so my tech friend put on new quality Abel hammers. Wow! What sound now! Mellowed it down but beautiful full alive rich tone.
Being new to pianos, I figured that this was normal. But I have since played quite a few other pianos. However, when I play other uprights they don't seem to have as full rich alive of a sound at my Walter. I am talking about good quality new uprights of very popular brands, even some new baby grands, and also a couple of newer used Walters. Only when I play a top quality used or new grands like a M&H, Bosendorfer, etc. do they significantly outclass my Walter upright. But that is not fair as those pianos are very expensive. I would have attributed this to Walter quality but the fact is that the other two newer (but still used) Walters I played did not in my opinion compare to my Walter.
So it got me thinking as to why this is. Did I just happen to get a great sounding piano? Or does a spruce piano soundboard, like with a classical guitar, improve with the sound age - assuming good hammers and strings, etc.? Just curious about your experiences.
1978 Charles Walter piano 1915 5"1' Weber Seeking truth in all areas of life
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Pianos change with age. If you feel it is an improvement, it is.
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Not sure you can compare a vintage guitar with a vintage soundboard. I can tell you that when we dismantle old pianos for all the hardware/screws etc that stringed instrument builders want the old soundboard spruce and maple scrap from the bridges. Which they use for making new bridges and other parts.
I think the reasons behind it are it is getting harder to find any good dimensional hardwood and what you do get is almost always imported
J. Christie Nashville Piano Rescue www.NashvillePianoRescue.comEast Nashville Bowling Green, KY Scottsville KY. Chamber of Commerce Member/Sponsor Putting inspiration in the hands of area musicians Through restoration/renovation
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So it got me thinking as to why this is. Did I just happen to get a great sounding piano? Or does a spruce piano soundboard, like with a classical guitar, improve with the sound age - assuming good hammers and strings, etc.? Just curious about your experiences. The cause of poor sound new pianos or grand is a significant reduction of the cost of materials. Including a departure from the traditional manufacturing techniques soundboard. Oldest pianos were made only with the flawless execution of all cycle need acts. Therefore, through the centuries it's have not lost their sound, I'm think so
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I think, in this case, what happened is simply that your tech did what a good tech does. He tweaked the systems to hone the sound and optimize the nature of the hammer impacts of your Walter.
Keep in mind, that before he did the hammer work, you were not at all pleased with the sound, and after the hammer work you were pleased. He did not change the soundboard. He did, with the new hammers, tone regulate the instrument, and this makes all the difference in the way the piano sounds.
Its not just a matter of the hammers swinging up and hitting the strings. The impact, is really quite an aggressive event. The hammer must strike all 3 strings simultaneously, the hammer shank pivots have to be such that the hammer doesn't shimmy around much at the actual impact, the density of the felt has to be adjusted to suite the soundboard's current impedance, and the action has to be regulated, at least somewhat in the process. All of these things effect the velocity of the impact, hammer string contact time, and precision of the strike, which results in pleasant musical tone.
You don't hear this in uprights and entry level grands in the showroom, because very little to no custom finishing is done to showroom entry level instruments...price point does not support it. In general, showroom prep is inadequate to achieve a nice sounding piano even on more expensive grands, but the bottom line is that a tech has to do the custom finishing before a piano will sound great. I can take a Chinese entry level grand that sounds quite unpleasant, and turn it into a musical instrument...it just takes time and chops.
Add to that, that the showroom instruments are kind-a tuned. A pianos sound often blossoms with a really nice tuning, all by itself, with no other work. You'd be surprised at how much the aggressiveness of the impact can be mitigated by having all 230 strings working together rather than chaotically grating against each other!
On top of that uprights are mostly of Asian origin and have been setup with cheap hard as rock hammers. The cards are stacked against them from the beginning. They can be greatly improved by a good tech, but the price point is such that owners are not particularly disposed to part with the cash it takes to customize these instruments and actually make them sound like musical instruments.
Jim Ialeggio
Last edited by jim ialeggio; 06/11/13 07:42 AM.
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[quote=jim ialeggio]I think, in this case, what happened is simply that your tech did what a good tech does. He tweaked the systems to hone the sound and optimize the nature of the hammer impacts of your Walter. Keep in mind, that before he did the hammer work, you were not at all pleased with the sound, and after the hammer work you were pleased. He did not change the soundboard. He did, with the new hammers, tone regulate the instrument, and this makes all the difference in the way the piano sounds. Its not just a matter of the hammers swinging up and hitting the strings. The impact, is really quite an aggressive event. The hammer must strike all 3 strings simultaneously, the hammer shank pivots have to be such that the hammer doesn't shimmy around much at the actual impact, the density of the felt has to be adjusted to suite the soundboard's current impedance, and the action has to be regulated, at least somewhat in the process. All of these things effect the velocity of the impact, hammer string contact time, and precision of the strike, which results in pleasant musical tone. You don't hear this in uprights and entry level grands in the showroom, because very little to no custom finishing is done to showroom entry level instruments...price point does not support it. In general, showroom prep is inadequate to achieve a nice sounding piano even on more expensive grands, but the bottom line is that a tech has to do the custom finishing before a piano will sound great. I can take a Chinese entry level grand that sounds quite unpleasant, and turn it into a musical instrument...it just takes time and chops. Add to that, that the showroom instruments are kind-a tuned. A pianos sound often blossoms with a really nice tuning, all by itself, with no other work. You'd be surprised at how much the aggressiveness of the impact can be mitigated by having all 230 strings working together rather than chaotically grating against each other! On top of that uprights are mostly of Asian origin and have been setup with cheap hard as rock hammers. The cards are stacked against them from the beginning. They can be greatly improved by a good tech, but the price point is such that owners are not particularly disposed to part with the cash it takes to customize these instruments and actually make them sound like musical instruments. Jim Ialeggio [/quote And that, is about as good a summary of this topic as one is likely to find.
Keith Akins, RPT Piano Technologist USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
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"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
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Thanks Jim for the insightful post.
1978 Charles Walter piano 1915 5"1' Weber Seeking truth in all areas of life
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Here is an old panel, a soundboard that passed 100 years . (1889) - https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQVlVRXzFUQk5xbUU/edit?usp=sharinghttps://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQTW9fQlpsZDNEazg/edit?usp=sharingThe piano is a mod C Steinway. (2.30m) work in progress, action wise, new hammers will be fit in a few months (only the soprano section have good hammers there, as the original ones where really glassy and harsh sounding) The soundboard is under downbearing normally (normal wire geometry on bridges) Then, the dynamics in the treble is clearly reduced, (tone less thick than usual) Basses have no real problem out of old strings and rarely have. Mediums will sound better when all hammers will be replaced (the ones installed are an old Renner set that have been lacquered and is reduced in elasticity range) A new piano have a little "green" tone, that quieten in +- 10 years, with less dynamics, if it can be over-simplificated that way) Then under good conservation conditions (air moisture) the panel usually can stay stable for an extremely long period. Now there are 4 different ways to make a soundboard, with some better than others from a resistance to cracks and loss of tension, so not all behave similarly. A piano is under stress, more than what is perceived at first sight. The glue used, the wood, the shapes of parts, are supposed to retain that tension for decades. The weak part there is the wood, in the end, because of its permanent contraction expansion work. So all piano owners that have a relatively closed room with an humidifier and a dehumidifier , are really doing their best for the long term maintenance of their instrument. (Dampp Chaser also are known to be efficient particularly when enclosed with an under-cover)
Last edited by Olek; 06/12/13 08:00 AM.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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Here is a Yamaha G5 , 25 years old. The hammers where re shaped, a few days before the recording.(2012) I will have the same piano recorded one year later . Now the tone is really open, the treble sparkle, I could make a tuning with very open unison. I like that pianist ! Tuning done without any ETD, of course ! https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQdFV2YlJ5UmFDaGs/edit?usp=sharing
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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In my opinion a soundboard does improve with age. After a soundboard is installed I feel it take a few years for the best tone to appear. That being said that does not mean 30 years is better than 4 years.
You have a well made piano with a fantastic design. Changing the hammers was what made the improvement.
Enjoy!!!
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Here is a Yamaha G5 , 25 years old. The hammers where re shaped, a few days before the recording.(2012) I will have the same piano recorded one year later . Now the tone is really open, the treble sparkle, I could make a tuning with very open unison. I like that pianist ! Tuning done without any ETD, of course ! https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQdFV2YlJ5UmFDaGs/edit?usp=sharing Superb sound and tuning! Thanks, Isaac.
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Bonjour Isaac,
Does the group that did The Elegant Elephant have CDs? I would love to buy some. Very cool Jazz !
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Hi, I am happy you like it, in fact Christophe Cravero, the pianist is playing in many different groups and with singers (and plays also much different instruments, his is the real orchestra man !) The CD is not yet ready. Christophe begun as alto player find that too difficult so he turned to violin. Then bass, cello, drums, piano, accordion, I certainly forget some instruments (mouthharp, bandoneon) I will let you know when the CD will be ready.And I hope to receive a recording with the piano one year later, and tuned differently. I am also much appreciating that music...
Last edited by Olek; 06/13/13 05:34 AM.
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We were always taught that no piano systems that come to bear upon the soundboard improve with age. If anything, these decline at varying rates with age and, in so doing, make the soundboard appear to be caught in the declension as well. (Harp in good shape excepted.) But, on the other hand, the soundboard itself improves with age, or perhaps it is better said "is an improvement due to its age." It was asserted that an old soundboard, cut from virgin forest, or second generation, is a better quality wood than those cut from newer timber. And, as the theory goes, better quality = better tone. Therefore, the old things are worth shimming and so on as opposed to replacing with new board.
Problem is, in my short time in rebuilding, I was never able to prove the assertion. Perhaps some of you who specialize in rebuilding and soundboard replacement can confirm or deny it?
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Well what strikes the most is the loss of power reserve (and its eventual "excess" when the panel is new.) But those things stabilize relatively soon. I have heard a 110 years old Steinway D that had a surprising dynamics. And other , Steinway or not that missed a good part of it. In any case new hammers (and new strings)= are always an improvement (for the string if the man knows what he is doing with the abilities of the panel and do not overload it) Here is the same 1889 grand (slightly better recording, but still with an Iphone, so the sound is much compressed and hardly shows the real dynamics of the piano) we will try to have something more audible asap) https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQLUlZbkx0elJic1E/edit?usp=sharing
Last edited by Olek; 06/13/13 06:14 AM.
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In my opinion a soundboard does improve with age. After a soundboard is installed I feel it take a few years for the best tone to appear. Can you give a brief explanation in layman's terms why you feel this it the case? Thanks.
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I cannot speak for Rod Verhnjak, and he is far far far more experienced than I am. But I brought up the question initially because in classical guitars that have a spruce soundboard, it is my understanding that as you play it it opens up the pores / grain of the wood. In doing so the wood actually becomes more flexible and therefore vibrates better, giving a fuller, better sound. I have heard that this is also true of violins. But since the soundboards of guitars and violins are only a few mm thick, I have NO idea if this could also happen with the much thicker piano soundboards.
As for my piano, the board already conclusively answered that the reason my 35 year old Walter piano sounds better IMO than new pianos that I play is the quality work of my technician did in putting on Abel hammers, etc.
Last edited by tdv; 06/13/13 06:35 PM.
1978 Charles Walter piano 1915 5"1' Weber Seeking truth in all areas of life
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I cannot speak for Rod Verhnjak, and he is far far far more experienced than I am. But I brought up the question initially because in classical guitars that have a spruce soundboard, it is my understanding that as you play it it opens up the pores / grain of the wood. In doing so the wood actually becomes more flexible and therefore vibrates better, giving a fuller, better sound. I have heard that this is also true of violins. But since the soundboards of guitars and violins are only a few mm thick, I have NO idea if this could also happen with the much thicker piano soundboards.
As for my piano, the board already conclusively answered that the reason my 35 year old Walter piano sounds better IMO than new pianos that I play is the quality work of my technician did in putting on Abel hammers, etc. There is a lot of mythology that surrounds the functioning of the classical guitar. And a violin. But it all pales beside the mythology that surrounds the piano. ddf
Delwin D Fandrich Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant ddfandrich@gmail.com (To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)
Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon
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... the wood actually becomes more flexible and therefore vibrates better, giving a fuller, better sound.... If more flexible is good, then totally floppy must be even better... or? More flexible does not necessarily vibrate better (think of a loose string, a loose drum head or a cooked noodle, for instance). And "better vibration" (whatever that is) may or may not lead to a "better sound". There are other important factors such as stiffness and impedance.
JG
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