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#2104705 - 06/19/13 02:03 AM 9 month old kawai k3 touch and damper effect on key weight.
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Hi.

It is quite apparent to me that the keyweight used to press the keys down is noticably different(lighter) when the damper pedal is pressed down... and same goes for the keys in the upper register that dont have dampers. I have read about barrel weight and spring strength. If i find a technician in my local area, is this an easy fix??
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#2104706 - 06/19/13 02:05 AM Re: 9 month old kawai k3 touch and damper effect on key weight. [Re: UK Paul UK]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
I live in newbury, berkshire , uk.any local technicians here?
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http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

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#2104711 - 06/19/13 02:12 AM Re: 9 month old kawai k3 touch and damper effect on key weight. [Re: UK Paul UK]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21665
Loc: Oakland
There is no fix. That is a characteristic of acoustic pianos.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2104717 - 06/19/13 02:25 AM Re: 9 month old kawai k3 touch and damper effect on key weight. [Re: UK Paul UK]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Nothing can be done? No fine fettling of anything? It is quite apparent.... its only recently i have started using pedal in some pieces...
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#2104722 - 06/19/13 02:41 AM Re: 9 month old kawai k3 touch and damper effect on key weight. [Re: UK Paul UK]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21665
Loc: Oakland
It takes force to stop the sound. That force is provided by springs in uprights, and gravity in grands. Your fingers have to counteract that force.

You will get used to it. Learn to use the pedal to control the sound, not to make it easier to play.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2104732 - 06/19/13 03:53 AM Re: 9 month old kawai k3 touch and damper effect on key weight. [Re: UK Paul UK]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
My tutors grand has no such difference... i will speak with someone who can actually play my piano for a better informed judgment. Understandably there will be differences as the damper springs are held off.... however i do want the difference as minimal as is pheasable.
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#2104736 - 06/19/13 04:12 AM Re: 9 month old kawai k3 touch and damper effect on key weight. [Re: UK Paul UK]
musicbased Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 103
Loc: UK
When you press the key how early do the dampers lift compared to the hammer travel?
They may be lifting too early in the keystroke,meaning the damper is pushing further into the spring than is needed,and makes the touch difference more noticeable.
Might be worth having a look at.
The damper should lift when the hammer is around half way to the strings.
If they are early,it's not hard for a technician to make them later,and should help a bit.
_________________________
Technician UK
www.soundcloud.com/musicfield

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#2104740 - 06/19/13 04:49 AM Re: 9 month old kawai k3 touch and damper effect on key weight. [Re: UK Paul UK]
Johnkie Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 725
Loc: England
Touch weight increases on all pianos when the dampers are lifted individually by the action rather than being lifted via the pedal. This further effort needed can be adjusted by easing off the tension of damper springs and /or adjusting the lift timing on the K3, but this must be balanced against the tension needed to enable the dampers to operate efficiently. The upper keys that have no dampers can't possibly change touch weight though .... you must be imagining things.
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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#2104746 - 06/19/13 05:17 AM Re: 9 month old kawai k3 touch and damper effect on key weight. [Re: UK Paul UK]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7894
Loc: France
damper spring tension have not always been regulated at the factory or on the sale floor.
As the springs harden a little in time (phosphor bronze springs do)

it may be time to regulate them and also to have a look at the timin, the key dip, all regulation points that could put any part of the action under constrain at the end of its travel motion (jacks or dampers)

Lessening the stiffness of damper springs change also the tone, it get warmer, to the pianists, just because of better control.

The springs can be roughly lessened in 30 minutes, or precisely weighted and regulated in more (weights are used to assume that the springs make the damper blade move a few mm under 90>70 g)

Key "weight" is only used to allow faster return of the keys, and to avoid a too light keyboard.
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2104750 - 06/19/13 05:49 AM Re: 9 month old kawai k3 touch and damper effect on key weight. [Re: UK Paul UK]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Thankyou all for your input. The keys on the higher register are consistantly lighter feel in the pressing action, which makes sense as no damper resistance. It is noticable with scales when i run past that point. I will check things over tonight and then probably wait till october... that will be a year from new... at that point i think it may be a good idea to get a local technician rather than my tuner to fettle with it. I know my technique with be a lot of my issues... however i think for my peace of mind having a once over will be good. I purchased it with £1500 off of the price tag due to my initial digital purchase being faulty (twice) so i am happy to spend a couple of hundred if it will improve... or atleast to put my mind at rest.
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http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

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#2104751 - 06/19/13 05:51 AM Re: 9 month old kawai k3 touch and damper effect on key weight. [Re: UK Paul UK]
Newby123 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 4
Loc: Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Hello,

I have a K3 and my teacher has a Yamaha concert grand. I notice a little difference in touchweight when I use the pedal. The big problem im having though is that compared to the grand that I play on during lessons, my K3's touchweight is way too light. I am considering having the spoons activate the dampers earlier than normal to try and increase the touchweight a little. I would recommend talking to your teacher about it as well as your technician before you do anything.

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#2104753 - 06/19/13 06:02 AM Re: 9 month old kawai k3 touch and damper effect on key weight. [Re: UK Paul UK]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1957
Loc: Suffolk, England
... or maybe the grand is way too heavy.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2104766 - 06/19/13 07:43 AM Re: 9 month old kawai k3 touch and damper effect on key weight. [Re: UK Paul UK]
Newby123 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 4
Loc: Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Hi Ian,

That was my initial thought as ive only been going to this teacher for around 6 months now. I ended up going into my local piano dealer and had a muck around with their grands...mainly petrof, yamaha, kuwai and beale and although there were differences, I didnt really notice a lot of difference where touch weight was concerned. Youve got me thinking now though....thankyou.

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#2104778 - 06/19/13 08:10 AM Re: 9 month old kawai k3 touch and damper effect on key weight. [Re: Newby123]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7894
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Newby123
Hello,

I have a K3 and my teacher has a Yamaha concert grand. I notice a little difference in touchweight when I use the pedal. The big problem im having though is that compared to the grand that I play on during lessons, my K3's touchweight is way too light. I am considering having the spoons activate the dampers earlier than normal to try and increase the touchweight a little. I would recommend talking to your teacher about it as well as your technician before you do anything.


You could tilt your piano 2-3 degrees, it will make it a little heavier.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2104780 - 06/19/13 08:19 AM Re: 9 month old kawai k3 touch and damper effect on key weight. [Re: UK Paul UK]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1771
Loc: Conway, AR USA
That the piano teacher's grand "feels" different from the student's upright is a common complaint. There is little if anything that can be done to make an upright feel like a grand. The action dynamics are simply too different.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

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#2104790 - 06/19/13 09:00 AM Re: 9 month old kawai k3 touch and damper effect on key weight. [Re: UK Paul UK]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1957
Loc: Suffolk, England
Paul, your piano is probably fine.

If you want to have a look inside, as musicbased suggests, then you may find it a useful first step to look at the pictures in http://www.kawaius-tsd.com/PDF/Regulation%20UP-English.pdf.

On no account should you try to adjust anything and, before you touch any strings, remember to put on gloves as shown in one of the pictures in the dampers section.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2104833 - 06/19/13 11:13 AM Re: 9 month old kawai k3 touch and damper effect on key weight. [Re: UK Paul UK]
David, Las Vegas Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 211
Loc: Las Vegas, Nevada
At the West-Pac Convention in Arizona recently Keith Bowman RPT debuted a unique upright damper spring regulating tool. A sleeve that slides on a shaft when placed on the damper lever with the action in a cradle and levers facing up. Several different weights are used in different section to account for mass in the three sections. The Hart spring tool is then employed to regulate the spring tension. I don't believe this tool is available but I would guess that Renner will be the company to offer this as Keith has developed products for sale through them. Upright damper spring tension have always been a dark area for me and I will be happy when a more technical approach can be used. A whole set can be regulated with efficiency and condensed time.


Edited by David, Las Vegas (06/19/13 11:14 AM)
Edit Reason: typo
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Las Vegas, Nevada
1923 Steinway "M"
1931 Mason Hamlin AA

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#2104965 - 06/19/13 05:21 PM Re: 9 month old kawai k3 touch and damper effect on key weight. [Re: Withindale]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Paul, your piano is probably fine.

If you want to have a look inside, as musicbased suggests, then you may find it a useful first step to look at the pictures in http://www.kawaius-tsd.com/PDF/Regulation%20UP-English.pdf.

On no account should you try to adjust anything and, before you touch any strings, remember to put on gloves as shown in one of the pictures in the dampers section.


Thanks, an interesting read... must resist playing with things i dont understand ;-)
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

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#2104970 - 06/19/13 05:27 PM Re: 9 month old kawai k3 touch and damper effect on key weight. [Re: Newby123]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Originally Posted By: Newby123
Hello,

I have a K3 and my teacher has a Yamaha concert grand. I notice a little difference in touchweight when I use the pedal. The big problem im having though is that compared to the grand that I play on during lessons, my K3's touchweight is way too light. I am considering having the spoons activate the dampers earlier than normal to try and increase the touchweight a little. I would recommend talking to your teacher about it as well as your technician before you do anything.



Hi, my teacher has a yamaha grand and i have the opposite experience.... his grand has a slightly lighter touch. My first teacher had a bechstein with the heaviest touch known to man. The incredible hulk would struggle playing that thing.... :-)
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http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

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