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#2058486 - 04/02/13 11:50 PM Steinway Stock ???
RickG1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/10
Posts: 299
Loc: TX
I am wondering if there are any of my PW colleagues that own S&S Stock in their portfolio? You may respond privately if you wish, Thanks!
_________________________
Mason-Hamlin "A"
Steinway "B"
Baldwin console

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#2058493 - 04/03/13 12:35 AM Re: Steinway Stock ??? [Re: RickG1]
Plowboy Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 2173
Loc: Huntington Beach, CA
It's a hard stock to analyze. I bought a hand full of shares. I think they've made some good changes in corporate structure lately, though that remains to be seen. So far, I've made a bit of paper money. Not enough to actually buy a Steinway, mind you. My equity share probably consists of a pile of spruce shavings on the shop floor.

I just wonder if Samick will take over.
_________________________
Gary Schenk

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#2058612 - 04/03/13 09:29 AM Re: Steinway Stock ??? [Re: RickG1]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10346
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
I own a little. It keeps me on their notification list so I hear of significant events in their operation.

Plowboy...some think a Samick takeover may have already happened.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#2058618 - 04/03/13 09:38 AM Re: Steinway Stock ??? [Re: RickG1]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6173
Loc: Rochester MN
I also own the LVB stock. I bought 200 shares just for fun, rather than any serious thought of investment for return. Other than the 'pride of ownership,' the corporate reports and mailings are very interesting.

It seems that Gary and I both like to mess around in a little pile of spruce shavings.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2058644 - 04/03/13 10:47 AM Re: Steinway Stock ??? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Plowboy Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 2173
Loc: Huntington Beach, CA
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
some think a Samick takeover may have already happened.


With the recent changes, they certainly have the biggest stake. And now they can buy more shares with approval of the board, of which they have the most votes.

So the question is will it be a good thing? Samick is a piano company, so that's good. Will a Samick made Boston be more affordable than a Kawai made Boston?
_________________________
Gary Schenk

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#2058655 - 04/03/13 11:06 AM Re: Steinway Stock ??? [Re: Plowboy]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10346
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: Plowboy
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
some think a Samick takeover may have already happened.


With the recent changes, they certainly have the biggest stake. And now they can buy more shares with approval of the board, of which they have the most votes.

So the question is will it be a good thing? Samick is a piano company, so that's good. Will a Samick made Boston be more affordable than a Kawai made Boston?


Some of the great mysteries of our time... wink

There are other even greater mysteries, like why did Samick buy so much land in Gallatin, TN?
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#2058663 - 04/03/13 11:22 AM Re: Steinway Stock ??? [Re: RickG1]
RickG1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/09/10
Posts: 299
Loc: TX
I am considering buying some just for the fun of it, I have other stocks as well as mutual funds and would certainly not put all my eggs in one basket and I am not expecting to "make a killing". Like Steve, it would be interesting to get their reports. Also, whether we like it or not, they are a big player in the musical instrument business in the US and I have no problem supporting an American owned musical business. If you can't beat them, join them ??
_________________________
Mason-Hamlin "A"
Steinway "B"
Baldwin console

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#2058670 - 04/03/13 11:37 AM Re: Steinway Stock ??? [Re: RickG1]
Furtwangler Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1476
Loc: Danville, California
Well,

You can get their reports online for free if you like. I do it all the time.

And I wouldn't exactly call them "American owned" any longer, would you?

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#2058680 - 04/03/13 12:14 PM Re: Steinway Stock ??? [Re: RickG1]
Nash. Piano Rescue Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 381
Loc: East Nashville,TN Scottsville...
The Gallatin TN building is a logistical base for Samick. I find it extremely unlikely that Steinway would want to build a factory in TN due to the workmans comp expense.
They would instantly kiss 47% of their gross revenue goodbye by paying one of the highest comp rates in the US. There is also a 12K dollar surety bond per man to pay pre-hire as well. For this reason most TN plants and factories only use or hire temps, for which there is a 5k tax break.

So unless they plan on building a better robot to assemble and do the fine piano building work I really dont see them making a wise choice to build an actual plant in TN,.
_________________________
J. Christie
Nashville Piano Rescue
www.NashvillePianoRescue.com
East Nashville
Bowling Green, KY
Scottsville KY.
Chamber of Commerce
Member/Sponsor

Putting inspiration in the hands of area musicians
Through restoration/renovation

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#2058697 - 04/03/13 12:45 PM Re: Steinway Stock ??? [Re: RickG1]
Furtwangler Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1476
Loc: Danville, California
47% of their GROSS REVENUE???

Sorry - your statement is absurd. You might want to check your facts.

And New York's Workers' Comp rate is fully 40% higher than in TN

Facts are beautiful things:

Workers Comp rates by State

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#2058738 - 04/03/13 01:47 PM Re: Steinway Stock ??? [Re: Nash. Piano Rescue]
Jonathan Alford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 356
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Nash. Piano Rescue
The Gallatin TN building is a logistical base for Samick. I find it extremely unlikely that Steinway would want to build a factory in TN due to the workmans comp expense.
They would instantly kiss 47% of their gross revenue goodbye by paying one of the highest comp rates in the US. There is also a 12K dollar surety bond per man to pay pre-hire as well. For this reason most TN plants and factories only use or hire temps, for which there is a 5k tax break.

So unless they plan on building a better robot to assemble and do the fine piano building work I really dont see them making a wise choice to build an actual plant in TN,.


This also seems unrealistic to me. Why would major car companies have plants here if it was so expensive to manufacture goods?

From the following article:
http://news.investors.com/030212-603104-tennessee-auto-industry-thrives-without-unions.aspx?p=full

Tennessee's law has held down labor costs. VW pays $27 an hour for new employees in wages and benefits, about half of the $52 an hour labor cost in Detroit.

I know this is just comparing to Detroit, but seems like it is not going to take 47% of their gross revenue.

Jonathan

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#2058776 - 04/03/13 03:33 PM Re: Steinway Stock ??? [Re: Jonathan Alford]
Plowboy Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 2173
Loc: Huntington Beach, CA
Originally Posted By: Jonathan Alford
...VW pays $27 an hour for new employees in wages and benefits, about half of the $52 an hour labor cost in Detroit.


We are the Mexico of Europe.
_________________________
Gary Schenk

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#2059836 - 04/05/13 12:55 PM Re: Steinway Stock ??? [Re: RickG1]
Nash. Piano Rescue Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 381
Loc: East Nashville,TN Scottsville...
Then with all your wisdom you can explain away this bill I have on my desk, actually stapled to the wall from last year when we wanted to put on two employees. Surety bond bill from the TN dept of revenue for the hires which totals 18,246.00 So that bill is a figment of my imagination all the way up until we hired temps and got an 8200.00 tax credit for doing so. TN ranks like 38th on a list for the highest business tax rates anywhere, which is why our shop is no longer in TN.

In-fact since that land aqquistion in Gallatin there is now a land aqquisition tax. Which is made worse really by the fact that they already have a building there. Another tax that doubled last year is the corporate tax rate which is why a lot of music studios have moved out of the area this year.

Factories that employ more than 200 people may get exemptions BUT You want to talk about Nissan in Smyrna TN ? almost the entire workforce is staffed by randstad temp agency. 4000 workers out of the supposed 4800 are temps. The leaf was supposed to bring in more jobs well where are they?.

I will however tell some of my business owner friends that pay upwards of 55% of their gross for workmans comp/PPA tax and surety bond tax that its just absurd because someone in California says so gimme a break, yawn !
_________________________
J. Christie
Nashville Piano Rescue
www.NashvillePianoRescue.com
East Nashville
Bowling Green, KY
Scottsville KY.
Chamber of Commerce
Member/Sponsor

Putting inspiration in the hands of area musicians
Through restoration/renovation

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#2059843 - 04/05/13 01:04 PM Re: Steinway Stock ??? [Re: RickG1]
Furtwangler Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1476
Loc: Danville, California

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#2059847 - 04/05/13 01:12 PM Re: Steinway Stock ??? [Re: RickG1]
Thrill Science Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 505
Loc: California
LVB is more than Steinway the piano company. Keep that in mind when evaluating the Stock.

But, IMHO, their piano business is a rotten investment.

According to Steinway Dealers (like this one http://www.steinwaypianogallery.net/how-to-buy/piano-myths ) it takes 3,000 hours to make a Steinway. Since a Steinway dealer said this, it must be true.

Let's suppose Steinway pays its people $10/hour and it costs an additional $10 overhead per employee (cost of employer contribution for payroll tax, health insurance, heating building, etc). This, of course, is a rock-bottom estimate. It would mean that their NY staff couldn't afford to live in NY making $20,000/year.

Anyway, this means it would cost $60,000 in labor and overhead just to make one Steinway. We'll estimate $10,000 for raw materials, which would bring the manufacturing cost to $70,000.

A Steinway "B" retails for about $90K. This means that Steinway's profit on every "B" can only be about $10,000. The rest of the margin goes to the dealer. And they lose money on S, M, and Os. Because, after all, it takes "3000 hours to make a Steinway."

The dealers claim that all their workers go through a "rigorous apprentice journeyman system" so it's likely the wage cost is higher, which would bring their profit margins down even more.

I guess they must have huge profit margins on their stencil brands to make up for it.


Edited by Thrill Science (04/05/13 02:43 PM)
_________________________
Robert Swirsky
Thrill Science, Inc.

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#2059861 - 04/05/13 01:54 PM Re: Steinway Stock ??? [Re: RickG1]
LarryShone Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 661
Loc: Darlington, UK
Hmm I'm sure I recognise the name Samick from the acoustic guitar world!
_________________________
If the piano is the King of instruments then I am its loyal servant.

Yamaha PSR225-I NEED A PIANO wink

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#2059878 - 04/05/13 02:48 PM Re: Steinway Stock ??? [Re: Thrill Science]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5070
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Thrill Science
According to Steinway Dealers (like this one http://www.steinwaypianogallery.net/how-to-buy/piano-myths ) it takes 3,000 hours to make a Steinway. Since a Steinway dealer said this, it must be true.

Take off a zero and it will be much closer to reality.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#2059918 - 04/05/13 04:10 PM Re: Steinway Stock ??? [Re: RickG1]
Jonathan Alford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 356
Loc: Colorado
2 X 12,000 = 18,246. The new math.

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#2059929 - 04/05/13 04:29 PM Re: Steinway Stock ??? [Re: RickG1]
Plowboy Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 2173
Loc: Huntington Beach, CA
Thrill Science, why do you hate America?

You should read their annual report, then you won't have to speculate about facts.
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=76306&p=irol-sec

LVB is indeed more than the piano company. Not selling the band division was a very good decision. They could have saved a few million dollars by just asking me about that, though, rather than hiring "business consultants".
_________________________
Gary Schenk

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#2061294 - 04/08/13 02:03 PM Re: Steinway Stock ??? [Re: RickG1]
Nash. Piano Rescue Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 381
Loc: East Nashville,TN Scottsville...
LOL My god this thread would be sheer perfection for No-Doz products. Gotta love it when people that do not live in a particular regional area suddenly become experts because they saw something like the Nissan job fair put on 2000 people on the news. Job fair = take a name and number after waiting in line for 3 hours. Top dollar out there is 8.25 and you are gone in 90-120 days WOW !. They had two of those job fairs in 3 months so the staff should reflect that? yes? NOT. VW and the other German plant in AL are temp run as well.


So couple very low hourly wages with the super high sales tax rates 9.25% in Nashville. 9.75 % in poorer counties and you have your formula as to why no one is buying anything or has the capacity to buy.

Now if you people think that under 9.00 is real money and is the way of the future then by all means lower your hourly rates and see how long you can live comfortably.

There is also strong resentment locally too so just because a new factory moves into the area with super low pay doesn't mean they will get quality workers
_________________________
J. Christie
Nashville Piano Rescue
www.NashvillePianoRescue.com
East Nashville
Bowling Green, KY
Scottsville KY.
Chamber of Commerce
Member/Sponsor

Putting inspiration in the hands of area musicians
Through restoration/renovation

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#2061370 - 04/08/13 04:51 PM Re: Steinway Stock ??? [Re: RickG1]
Rickster Offline


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8082
Loc: Georgia, USA
This thread has drifted way beyond where it started and has dabbled into politics, economics, and strong egos/opinions.

If we can’t get it back on track there is no need for it to continue…

Rickster
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#2061664 - 04/09/13 02:44 AM Re: Steinway Stock ??? [Re: RickG1]
phacke Online   content

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 395
Loc: CO, USA
Here is my stab at it. Gross margins in the low to mid 30s are very nice. Moderate revenue and net income increase trend is OK. Price/earning ratio at 22 suggests that the market is already counting on some moderate growth, so the price now reflects about what it is worth. From the charts and a technical point of view, the price looks like it is heading to some resistance levels in the mid to mid to mid/high 20s, and the price is likely to hit some of these resistance levels again, so there is likely a little bit of gravy to be had there considering todays price at ~24. Breaking out above these resistance levels, beyond the high 20s, will require some upswing in the trend of the company's outlook or figures. Because the company is fairly priced now and based on what I know publicly around the company, I will not be making a purchase right now. I unfortunately don't have one of those crystal balls about the future.
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin

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#2104676 - 06/19/13 12:05 AM Re: Steinway Stock ??? [Re: RickG1]
phacke Online   content

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 395
Loc: CO, USA
Well, Ludwig Van Beethoven (LVB) is at around a 5 year high closing at $29.3. The chart had looked to me (when I wrote the previous message in this thread) like it would run up and test some of the resistance levels. It however did so and went through them more quickly than I would have guessed and is now at around an important resistance level that is around 5 y old.

It will be interesting what it does from here--I have no idea at this time.

I don't own any LVB and am not planning on it at this time.

All the best -
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin

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#2104713 - 06/19/13 02:14 AM Re: Steinway Stock ??? [Re: RickG1]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13976
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
Plowboy...some think a Samick takeover may have already happened.


Not from what I heard recently.

Dr.Kim apparently showing signs of slowing down a bit...

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
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