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#2103671 - 06/17/13 04:09 AM the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red
chen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/10
Posts: 165
Loc: yichang city china mainland
recently ,we have received several feedback from KAWAI upright piano's costumer.they had bought K 5 and K6 K8 several months ,now they found their piano's key surface 's color turn to red ,a lot of red finger print on key surface.

we found this phenomenon before ,but not so fast ,this time ,just half year turn to red.

K5 K6 K7 K8's keysurface use the NEOTEX tech, NEOTEX will have chemical reaction with sweat.but just a few people's sweat will react with it,may be 1/10000.

now ,KAWAI company still now find the reason and no way to solve this problem.

some engineer here can to analyze it ,and give the answer to solve the problem.

thanks!!!


Edited by chen (06/17/13 04:10 AM)
_________________________
http://www.parsonsmusic.com/ www.kawaiyc.com our company is KAWAI piano's general agent in china

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#2103723 - 06/17/13 08:05 AM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: chen]
Rickster Offline


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8076
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: chen
recently ,we have received several feedback from KAWAI upright piano's costumer.they had bought K 5 and K6 K8 several months ,now they found their piano's key surface 's color turn to red ,a lot of red finger print on key surface.

we found this phenomenon before ,but not so fast ,this time ,just half year turn to red.

K5 K6 K7 K8's keysurface use the NEOTEX tech, NEOTEX will have chemical reaction with sweat.but just a few people's sweat will react with it,may be 1/10000.

now ,KAWAI company still now find the reason and no way to solve this problem.

some engineer here can to analyze it ,and give the answer to solve the problem.

thanks!!!


Hi Chen,

I was just wondering, it seems to me that Neotex key tops have been around a fairly long time (haven’t they?)… I wonder why this issue has not come up before?

Is this considered a defect in materials (for some piano owners with certain DNA)? Are the key-tops in question being replaced under warranty?

I wonder what Kawai Don would have to say about this…

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#2103726 - 06/17/13 08:12 AM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: chen]
Schubertslieder Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/13
Posts: 373
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: chen

K5 K6 K7 K8's keysurface use the NEOTEX tech, NEOTEX will have chemical reaction with sweat.but just a few people's sweat will react with it,may be 1/10000.

now ,KAWAI company still now find the reason and no way to solve this problem.

some engineer here can to analyze it ,and give the answer to solve the problem.

thanks!!!

If you are looking for engineers here on PW, there may or may not be engineers who can solve this problem for you. I wondered if you tried contacting the Kawai company with this issue. I also wondered if Kawai company has engineers on their staff who can better assist you.

If you have already tried Kawai company engineers and they were unable to assist you, I wondered if you can actually find the answers you are looking for here on PW
_________________________
Charles Peck (American)--Metropolitan
Debussy--various pieces
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#2103746 - 06/17/13 09:32 AM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: chen]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2629
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
I would tell anyone who's keytops turn red to stop practicing until their fingertips bleed. wink


Edited by Steve Chandler (06/17/13 09:34 AM)

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#2103757 - 06/17/13 10:03 AM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: chen]
pianocritic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 68
Loc: Midwest
Kawai should correct the problem. If not, poor customer service on their part.
_________________________
Piano Critic-A player and listener. Musician-Bachelors and Masters in Music. Retired from Professional life and just enjoying Music.

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#2103783 - 06/17/13 11:03 AM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: pianocritic]
terminaldegree Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 2557
Loc: western Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: pianocritic
Kawai should correct the problem.


Specifics of this issue aside, perhaps you should change your screen name to "kawaicritic" based on your posts here...
_________________________
Pianist, teacher, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
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Schimmel 130T #339100, on loan

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#2103792 - 06/17/13 11:19 AM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: chen]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2634
Loc: Atlanta, GA
chen, look to see what these customers have in common besides the keytops, like using hand lotion before playing. I haven't seen this in red, but I have seen this in other shades where the customer would wash their hands and then apply lotion immediately before playing.

This is more likely than red fingerprints being a sweat reaction to an inert material.
_________________________
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PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bsendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta

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#2103837 - 06/17/13 12:58 PM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: chen]
Grand Piano Haus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/05
Posts: 194
Loc: Skokie, IL
Originally Posted By: chen
recently ,we have received several feedback from KAWAI upright piano's costumer.they had bought K 5 and K6 K8 several months ,now they found their piano's key surface 's color turn to red ,a lot of red finger print on key surface.

we found this phenomenon before ,but not so fast ,this time ,just half year turn to red.

K5 K6 K7 K8's keysurface use the NEOTEX tech, NEOTEX will have chemical reaction with sweat.but just a few people's sweat will react with it,may be 1/10000.

now ,KAWAI company still now find the reason and no way to solve this problem.

some engineer here can to analyze it ,and give the answer to solve the problem.

thanks!!!


When I was a Kawai dealer, we had an older RX-A (Fully hand-crafted RX, basically a smaller version of an EX)with the same problem that you are explaining. At that time I personally asked one of Kawai's Master Piano Artisan (Otake-San) about how one can remove this reddish hue displaying on the keytops of where one touches the keys. He told me that it would be very difficult to fully remove. The only way is to replace the keytops.


Jeff
Grand Piano Haus


Edited by Grand Piano Haus (06/17/13 06:26 PM)
_________________________
Yamaha, Bösendorfer, Steingraeber & Söhne, Kayserburg, Ritmüller, Cable-Nelson, CEUS, Live-Performance model-LX, Disklavier-PRO, Q.R.S. & PianoDisc, AvantGrand, Clavinova, Arius http://www.GrandPianoHaus.com.

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#2103949 - 06/17/13 04:45 PM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: Grand Piano Haus]
AndyJ Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/12
Posts: 216
Loc: Near Dayton, Ohio USA
Originally Posted By: Grand Piano Haus
...one of Kawai's Master Piano Artesian


Hi Jeff,

In the interest of our Chinese friend's comprehension, you might want to correct that word to "artisan". Unless Otake-San is in fact a spring that shoots a stream of water into the air, of course!

Andy

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#2103992 - 06/17/13 06:28 PM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: AndyJ]
Grand Piano Haus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/05
Posts: 194
Loc: Skokie, IL
Originally Posted By: AndyJ
Originally Posted By: Grand Piano Haus
...one of Kawai's Master Piano Artesian


Hi Jeff,

In the interest of our Chinese friend's comprehension, you might want to correct that word to "artisan". Unless Otake-San is in fact a spring that shoots a stream of water into the air, of course!

Andy


Yes, we do not want that to happen.

Thanks for letting me know..


Edited by Grand Piano Haus (06/17/13 06:31 PM)
_________________________
Yamaha, Bösendorfer, Steingraeber & Söhne, Kayserburg, Ritmüller, Cable-Nelson, CEUS, Live-Performance model-LX, Disklavier-PRO, Q.R.S. & PianoDisc, AvantGrand, Clavinova, Arius http://www.GrandPianoHaus.com.

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#2104003 - 06/17/13 06:53 PM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: chen]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1734
Loc: Philadelphia area
I would replace the key tops.

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#2104060 - 06/17/13 09:18 PM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: terminaldegree]
pianocritic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 68
Loc: Midwest
A manufacture worth their salt would want to fix the problem whether it be Kawai, Yamaha, Young Chang or any other manufacture. Having owned several retail stores in varies commodities I guarantee any manufacture would not want that type of advertisement on a major forum.
_________________________
Piano Critic-A player and listener. Musician-Bachelors and Masters in Music. Retired from Professional life and just enjoying Music.

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#2104088 - 06/17/13 10:23 PM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: Rickster]
chen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/10
Posts: 165
Loc: yichang city china mainland
we found this problem long ago.but rarely,and happened after several years by used .so we are not make much account of it.

recently,we found several events in half year. and customers think of it a quality problem.
_________________________
http://www.parsonsmusic.com/ www.kawaiyc.com our company is KAWAI piano's general agent in china

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#2104089 - 06/17/13 10:26 PM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: pianocritic]
Robert 45 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 1116
Loc: Auckland New Zealand
My question would also be why has nothing been heard of this problem until now? Kawai has been using Neotex key covers for many years.
I would like to hear more factual information about it. I think that it is unfair, even scurrilous to make these allegations unless there is clear evidence of a problem.

Robert.


Edited by Robert 45 (06/17/13 10:27 PM)

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#2104093 - 06/17/13 10:33 PM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: Robert 45]
chen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/10
Posts: 165
Loc: yichang city china mainland
in china we found this problem several years ago. i don't know what about it in USA .

maybe this issue about the number of sale.
in china we can sell K series 4000
_________________________
http://www.parsonsmusic.com/ www.kawaiyc.com our company is KAWAI piano's general agent in china

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#2104112 - 06/17/13 11:04 PM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: chen]
monads Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/23/12
Posts: 160
Loc: CA
Chen, any photos to share of this phenomenon? Could it be dye leaching from the 'red' dust key cover in extreme heat conditions or exposed to sunlight?

The NEOTEX keys on my K8 turned smurf blue. And this was directly related to repeat applications of the Cory product 'Keybrite'. The NEOTEX key was absorbing the product!

I posted/photos in the tech forums here for help on this. At first Kawai instructed me to use a magic eraser to clean the keys? I sampled on one key even though I knew magic erasers was an abrasive product (Kawai recommended after all) and while the blue color was removed, the key lost its shine/top coat. I raised the issue with Kawai again and a tech actually removed all the keys from the K8 for professional repair (Kawai fixed free of charge).

I don't use any other products to clean the keys on my K8 except warm water and a white cloth. NO ISSUES. I have noticed some blotching on the keys however since repair, and this no doubt is related to the chemical reaction/acidity level in my body (everyone's different) to key reaction.

If you have some photos please post, otherwise it's going to be difficult to troubleshoot/find support. Also mention what/if any products, cloths were used to clean the keys and frequency. Remember even a red cloth, even colored/decorative napkins have dyes that can leach dye if used to clean a NEOTEX key.

monads
_________________________
My music_website at http://www.OdysseyofaG.com

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#2104126 - 06/17/13 11:30 PM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: monads]
chen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/10
Posts: 165
Loc: yichang city china mainland


KAWAI company give the answer is that One;NEOTEX key top can absorb sweat,also can absorb the water from air,some people's sweat special,can react with some material in NEOTEX,so turn to red; Two: use the red keyboard cover,the cover dye the key top red .

and KAWAI company still work on research it ,now they are not find the basic reason still
_________________________
http://www.parsonsmusic.com/ www.kawaiyc.com our company is KAWAI piano's general agent in china

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#2104271 - 06/18/13 09:17 AM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: Robert 45]
Schubertslieder Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/13
Posts: 373
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Robert 45
My question would also be why has nothing been heard of this problem until now? Kawai has been using Neotex key covers for many years.
I would like to hear more factual information about it. I think that it is unfair, even scurrilous to make these allegations unless there is clear evidence of a problem.

Robert.

I agree regarding the unfairness.

We are getting one side of the story by someone living in China.

We are not being told anything about the conditions these pianos are subjected to. We also do not have information about the pianists who play these instruments and what they are doing daily to cause this.

Living in USA, I personally have never heard of this. Also, just as some other posters stated, this is the first time I heard about it.
_________________________
Charles Peck (American)--Metropolitan
Debussy--various pieces
Grieg--various pieces

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#2104310 - 06/18/13 11:02 AM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: chen]
RX2Bunny Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/22/12
Posts: 112
Loc: Chicago
This is quite scary! I would never want that "red" on my piano!!

@Monads, thanks for sharing your experience. I need to watch out when i clean my piano too. do you use anything to clean the cabinet? the dealer i bought my piano from recommended and gave me a "trick" http://www.amazon.com/Trick-Piano-Polish...er+trick+polish

Do you think this is okay or you have other suggestion? Thanks!

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#2104398 - 06/18/13 01:13 PM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: chen]
monads Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/23/12
Posts: 160
Loc: CA
@RileyBunny,

I use the Cory Piano Polish (Super High Gloss) for the cabinet smile It works excellent. Originally, I purchased their Ultimate Care Kit, which includes: Key-Brite, High Gloss Piano Polish & 2 fiber cloths specifically for each product (not to be mix-matched). It also appears from visiting their website the 2 fiber cloths have changed or updated since my kit included dark green & blue colored cloths whereas now they are light grey & blue. I contacted both Cory and Kawai regarding my keys. Cory was helpful, but didn't confirm testing on the NEOTEX Key surface. Thankfully Kawai resolved in the end.
_________________________
My music_website at http://www.OdysseyofaG.com

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#2104410 - 06/18/13 01:31 PM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: monads]
Carbonblob Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/13
Posts: 184
Loc: Los Angeles, Ca.
monads,

You got me really scared now! I have the corey keybright and polish kit with the green and blue micro towels. I've only used the keybright twice since the piano is new. I'm very worried about the use of corey keybright now. I researched and thought this to be the best for keeping the keys free of oil if used once a month as a regular routine.

so to be clear, you're saying the blue tint is due to the blue towel leaching into the keys over time? How often did you apply the keybright product? I just bought this "kit" about a month or two ago. I want to contact them but would like to know exactly when they went to the different towels. I would think they would exchange them for me given I have neotex keys. However, I want to provide facts before talking with them. Thanks in advance for your response......blob.
_________________________
KAWAI RX-3 BLAK
YAMAHA GRANTOUCH GT1

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#2104436 - 06/18/13 02:36 PM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: Schubertslieder]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2634
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: Schubertslieder
Originally Posted By: Robert 45
My question would also be why has nothing been heard of this problem until now? Kawai has been using Neotex key covers for many years.
I would like to hear more factual information about it. I think that it is unfair, even scurrilous to make these allegations unless there is clear evidence of a problem.

Robert.

I agree regarding the unfairness.

We are getting one side of the story by someone living in China.

We are not being told anything about the conditions these pianos are subjected to. We also do not have information about the pianists who play these instruments and what they are doing daily to cause this.

Living in USA, I personally have never heard of this. Also, just as some other posters stated, this is the first time I heard about it.
The "someone living in China" is the Kawai distributor, not exactly an outsider trying to scare anybody. Another former dealer confirmed seeing it. It looks like my first guess was off base, but clearly the rarity of the problem should keep people from being scared.
_________________________
Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bsendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta

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#2104445 - 06/18/13 03:02 PM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: PianoWorksATL]
Robert 45 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 1116
Loc: Auckland New Zealand
Another question is why has this problem arisen in the "K" series uprights when there other Kawai pianos, including the RX grand piano models which also have neotex keytops and are not mentioned? Is this happening only in China? The argument that some people who play these pianos have a different chemistry in their perspiration which can actually change the key colour on a piano seems both absurd and medically unfounded.

Although Parsons is a Kawai agency and reporting these allegations, it does not rule out that some competitor is scaremongering. It is a hugely competitive market place in China and in the wake of other commercial product scandals such as the baby milk powder adulteration, I remain sceptical.

On the basis of the sketchy allegations we have heard so far, I am still unconvinced.

Robert.

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#2104484 - 06/18/13 04:19 PM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: Robert 45]
Schubertslieder Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/13
Posts: 373
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Robert 45
Another question is why has this problem arisen in the "K" series uprights when there other Kawai pianos, including the RX grand piano models which also have neotex keytops and are not mentioned? Is this happening only in China? The argument that some people who play these pianos have a different chemistry in their perspiration which can actually change the key colour on a piano seems both absurd and medically unfounded.

Although Parsons is a Kawai agency and reporting these allegations, it does not rule out that some competitor is scaremongering. It is a hugely competitive market place in China and in the wake of other commercial product scandals such as the baby milk powder adulteration, I remain sceptical.

On the basis of the sketchy allegations we have heard so far, I am still unconvinced.

Robert.

I agree. thumb
_________________________
Charles Peck (American)--Metropolitan
Debussy--various pieces
Grieg--various pieces

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#2104502 - 06/18/13 04:42 PM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: chen]
monads Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/23/12
Posts: 160
Loc: CA
@Carbonblob

When I researched for cleaning the piano/keys, one of the best products that turned up was Cory. So I purchased the kit. I used the blue 'polisher' fiber cloth on the cabinet only, and the green 'cleaner' fiber cloth on the keys only, as instructed. I never mixed cloths. I probably used Key-Brite to excess looking back. Since I practice everyday, I used Key-Brite after every session! It took about 3.5 months for the keys to turn blue. Had I not applied excessively, it still would've occured over time (yrs vs. months).

My tech believed it to be related to the color of the Key-Brite solution. It's not 'clear'. And I don't know if the solution color has changed or been modified since I reported last year. A quick check would be to open your bottle and see. In general, no colored solution/cloth should be used to clean the keys. I'd feel safer using a white fiber cloth on the keys.

You're keys are probably ok though smile Doesn't sound like you've had enough time for repeat applications. But I wouldn't recommend continuous use to find out. It won't happen over night.

As to why this issue isn't more common knowledge....I don't know since my incident was directly related to a specific brand of product and repeat or excess applications. I don't know what others use to clean their NEOTEX keys, or if they've been using Key-Brite on NEOTEX for years without problems? And if so could it be related to a bad batch/mix of Key-Brite? Regardless, if the issue was more documented, I would've never used. Who wants smurf keys on a brand new piano 4mos old? Not me.
_________________________
My music_website at http://www.OdysseyofaG.com

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#2104640 - 06/18/13 09:45 PM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: Robert 45]
chen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/10
Posts: 165
Loc: yichang city china mainland
yes.now this issue had a heavy influence on market and our sales.and some competitor use this issue attack us .
_________________________
http://www.parsonsmusic.com/ www.kawaiyc.com our company is KAWAI piano's general agent in china

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#2104692 - 06/19/13 12:40 AM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: chen]
monads Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/23/12
Posts: 160
Loc: CA
And below is a photo of what happened. Again it didn't happen overnight, it became worse over time with every application. The B key next to middle C is white because it's where I used the magic eraser! I was not about to do this to all the keys.

In Chen's case I'm still not 100% sure without more information. Ever since I got my keys back from repair and stopped using the Cory product I haven't had ANY color changes.



_________________________
My music_website at http://www.OdysseyofaG.com

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#2104786 - 06/19/13 08:42 AM Re: the issue of KAWAI K series key surface turn to red [Re: monads]
Carbonblob Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/13
Posts: 184
Loc: Los Angeles, Ca.
thank you monads,

I probably over reacted but that did get my attention, especially since the only fix appears to be a keytop replacement. I'll check later to see the color of the solution AND I'll lose the green towel from here on out. The good news is this incident appears to be rare at best. Thanks for the head's up and good luck with the key repairs. I hope we get to the bottom of this but from your testing, it does seem to point to the corey product application.


I'm in agreement with Rickster's post, plus you would think there's a Kawai tech bulletin to dealers floating around somewhere.
_________________________
KAWAI RX-3 BLAK
YAMAHA GRANTOUCH GT1

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