Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Do I trust this tuner?

I've owned my Yamaha upright for about seven years. It was a used piano, but the first time I had it tuned (a couple of months after buying it), the tuner said he was impressed with the quality of the instrument, and when he looked it up to see when it was built, he was shocked that it was as old as it was (built in the 1980s).

Anyway, I tune it every year. I wish I had the funds to do it twice a year, because I have "perfect pitch" (I've seen threads on that here, and mine is about as complicated as it gets, I guess) and because I teach on this piano. I have moved a few times and always tune it after moving, but not right after. I have hired three or four different tuners over the years because of moving.

Anyway, last August, I had a different guy tune it than I'd been using before. I think the woman who tuned it the previous few years couldn't do it for some reason. Anyway, he seemed like an expert, talking a lot about his schooling back east and how lots of piano tuners aren't all that qualified or well trained.

He recommended a pitch raise, which was a surprise to me. I have never had a tuner recommend that before, and my last tuning was a year before this guy came. Furthermore, I have a good ear, and if it was even half a pitch off, I'd know. And I have a metronome that plays A440, and it's just about right on with my piano. Some of the very low and very high notes get out of tune faster than others, I guess.

Part of me wants to say, "This guy knows more than my other tuners did because he noticed this problem that they didn't," and part of me wonders if he's just trying to get me to do the pitch raise because he'd make more money if I did.

If it were you, would you go with this tuner next time, or go back to my previous (female) tuner? I'm leaning toward the latter. If she recommends a pitch raise too, then I'll know for sure that I need one.

But if she doesn't, I might wonder . . .

A few things to consider;

It is fine to wait a month or so following a move to tune the instrument.

If the pitch was low on your piano, this could have been demonstrated to you by the technician prior to PR and tuning. I make a habit of demonstrating to the client problems associated with the instrument.

A metronome does not determine nor play in pitch; a metronome counts time.

If you feel more comfortable with the former tuner then make that choice.

This tuning is almost a year ago. It sounds as though you trust your former (female) tuner. Try to get her back and put this experience behind you and learn from it. There's no real way for any of us to judge this situation reliably.

By the way, how much is "half a pitch off"? That's a new one on me.

Edit: Dan, modern electronic metronomes do sound a pitch reference note or two and those notes are often adjustable within a limited range.

By "half a pitch off," I meant that an A would be halfway to A flat. I don't know the correct way to say that.

I agree. I was just wondering if someone with more expertise would know right off the bat if something sounded fishy. I think I will go with my previous tuner.

That would be 50 cents flat, a profound degree of flatness.
Regards,

There are charlatans around so it behooves every piano owner to learn to use a pitch reference to ascertain the pitch of their piano with a degree of accuracy.

Using terms like half a pitch when you mean a quarter tone may be a clear signal to a practiced con man. Specify flat or sharp, not "off" and you will gain more respect as a musician.

It is not necessary to tune your own piano to know a thing or two about it. There are smartphone apps that will tell you at a glance or an inexpensive guitar tuner for a few dollars will protect you from rogue traders. The dial tone of a landline telephone in the USA is an equal tempered f and a. (If anybody still has one).

The chances of your piano going that flat in just a year are extremely slim. Either your previous tuner has been tuning it there, or your new tuner is lying to you. If the old tuner tuned it that flat, you most certainly want to find out why, she may have seen something the new tuner didn't. (Or been too lazy to pull it up, it could go both ways.) Use Google to find a strobe tuner and check to see where the middle of the piano is registering. The outer octaves won't be at "mathematical pitch", so there's no point in trying to check them on a strobe tuner. If the middle is close to pitch, the guy is lying to you.

Ya know, if right off the bat he has to tell you how qualified he is, that raises a big red flag for me. If people ask me I'll be glad to tell them how I was trained but I don't offer that information unless they ask. It sounds to me like he was trying to really really impress you with his knowledge and yes, get more money out of you, because, of course, he's so highly trained and you are so fortunate to have him working on your piano and straightening it out... yes, sarcasm intended.

Also, I have read in other forums posts from tuners that consider 5 cents flat to be a "pitch raise". I consider that untrue. If that were true then pretty much every tuning I did would be a pitch raise. This would exclude concert tunings - I'm just talking about in home tunings.

I agree with you - go back to your other tuner.

You could download the demo version of TuneLab if you wanted to check up on what they're doing. It won't match perfectly but it would give you a good idea of where the pitch is.

There are legitimate reasons for tuning a piano flat, even as low as -50 cents. If any of these come into play your tuner should, at the very least, advise you accordingly prior to service. Moreover, a notation to that effect should be placed in the piano advising future tuners not to pitch raise because: _______. (The reality is, some tuners do not examine instruments before they tune.)

Some thoughts come to mind...

I begin charging for pitch raises if any one section is more than 10 cents from its target. The reason behind this procedure is that significantly changing the tension in a piano causes unstable tuning; pianos that are not close to pitch must be brought to pitch before they can be tuned accurately. For example, an A4 that is 10 cents flat must be tuned 2.8 cents sharp for the pitch to settle at the correct target (440Hz); if this is not done, the pitch will fall below 440Hz as the piano is tuned. For any given note on a piano, one can expect the necessary over-pull to be approximately 10% in the bass, 28% in the middle section, and 36% in the treble.

Unfortunately, having your piano tuned only once a year significantly increases the chance that it will be this far from pitch, particularly if the indoor relative humidity around the piano is poorly controlled. Most piano manufacturers recommend two tunings per year as a minimum, and even more if the piano is brand new, is subjected to strenuous use, and/or the owner is sensitive to tuning.

So what does this mean for you? It's possible that your first tuner "floated" the pitch, meaning that she tuned it to the pitch it was at at the time. This is somewhat controversial, but may be appropriate in some applications. It's also possible that she performed a pitch raise and didn't charge extra for it. It's also possible that she tuned it to A-440 without doing a pitch raise, which is probably the least desirable of the three. Since you have stated that you've moved around a few times, it's plausible that the piano's new environment is less stable than its previous ones, and this is why a pitch raise was needed.

OTOH, some technicians really do like to brag and talk themselves up.





Technically, it is. If A4 is 5 cents flat and it is tuned to A440 without a second pass, or without over-pull, it will ultimately settle more than 1 cent flat. On the RPT tuning exam, this would result in penalty points. Does this mean one should charge for a pitch raise at this threshold? No, for the reason you stated.

With your "perfect pitch", you would have been able to tell if the piano's pitch was off, right? How did the piano sound after the latest person tuned it? Better, worse, or about the same as the previous technician? If you were happy with the previous person, and are somewhat suspicious about the current person, go back to the previous person. When you call her to set up the appointment, come right out and tell her about this other person and the pitch raise. Simply ask her, "Has my piano always been tuned to standard pitch?"

In my family we have a running joke about "technically speaking" and I use my game show host voice announcing - "It's the let's get technical show with your host _________!)". So I got a chuckle out of your post

Yes, technically speaking you are correct. That's why I'm usually overpulling 2-3 cents in the middle and 4-6 cents in the higher range. It usually comes out just fine and even if it doesn't 2-3 cents flat isn't a big deal, especially for a home tuning. But it's not something I charge extra for and therefore not something I would tell the customer about.

I do charge extra for a pitch raise but only if it's about 30 cents flat or more.

Is A=440, or something similar, written on your previous invoice?

I agree with all of this.

Additionally, if you want to get a reasonable indication of pitch, get Cleartune for your smart phone; it has an easy-to-read display that will tell you exactly what the pitch is it's hearing.

And it's only $3.99...

If someone asks me to substitute for their regular tuner, I will do nothing to poach the client. After all, I may need the favor in return.

It sounds pretty legitimate to me. I have perfect pitch but can't tell by ear that a piano is flat until it's about 20c flat. That's a fairly major pitch correction. If you're like me in that aspect it's possible that your piano would be pretty significantly flat and you would not know it.

If you can't afford to tune twice a year maybe your old tech was aware of that and was tuning for stability. There's nothing wrong with that. How did your piano hold up since last August?

"...If you can't afford to tune twice a year..."

I would suggest you save up a little more. Tuning twice a year is not that expensive, and can prevent the more expensive situation of your piano's needing a pitch raise. Besides, a teaching piano takes more wear, and will require more service anyway; this maintenance is an overhead of your business, and it is completely fair to adjust your rates to cover it.

It is also an income tax write-off.

It is also a bare minimum for a working piano.

Your loyalty in sticking with the tech you've trusted over the years is commendable.

Many people can't afford to get their pianos tuned twice a year, something many piano technicians forget. If you can only have it tuned once a year, stick with the technician who understands that. Doing a pitch raise on a piano that isn't going to be seen again for a year isn't necessarily a smart decision. As techs it is our responsibility to do our best within budget, not to bleed our clients dry trying to do everything WE want done.

Absolutely. With our own wallet we can be idealistic. With the client's, we must be pragmatic. Present all of the legitimate options - and the consequences of each - then allow the client to choose which one is affordable. If an altogether different choice is presented to us that offends our ethical sensibilities, then we are always at liberty to decline the business.