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#2083132 - 05/15/13 02:35 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2345
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Enjoyed the video. The piano sounds great harmonically, supports and fits in beautifully with the instruments.

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#2084047 - 05/17/13 08:08 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1707
Loc: London, England
Good tuning. I listened to far more than I intended to. In the first number, I wanted to hear more tension in the pianists chords (I wonder of he did, too) but in the second number I was quite happy. Most likely the difference of key.

I heard no intonation problems with the other instruments that don't occur anyway in ensembles of this nature, particularly as they hadn't, at that point, played together much. None of it traceable to the piano The area of the piano where UT's are most telling was clouded and rendered a bit nebulous somewhat by the bass.

The melodic intonation of the treble of a piano In any tuning will by destroyed by a sharp brass or sax section. I heard none of that in the parts I listened to. ( a sharp bass player doesn't have that effect, must be on a different tonal plane.

As for transposing the UT to accommodate brass Instruments, it might be a case where too much is overly helpful to the point of getting in the way. Speaking as a trumpet player, all brass and players worth their salt are dexterous in sharp keys whether from playing with guitarists or transposing cornet in A parts when playing for 100 year old light operas. Sharp keys tend to be quite sprightly on those instruments. Yes, a concert band intonation will go completely haywire in extreme sharps but that's more about low expectations. It doesn't need to but it does. Fewer instrumentalists who are fully conversant with extreme keys will have no more problems than they do with ET.

The main thing for me would be the pianists being happy that the intentions of their chords are being met.

Otherwise I see no problem.


Edited by rxd (05/17/13 08:59 AM)
Edit Reason: Overly helpful autocorrect
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2084055 - 05/17/13 08:18 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
was disturbed by the harmony at 45 " the beginning of the slow piece, find the basses meanless (the F chord) harmonically .

Sound strange (same effect when the ^pattern is played again later)

Like if the F (F1 F2) played have no relation with the right hand, while not being clearly false.

Otherwise, the mediums and treble are not sounding bad in the context.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2084150 - 05/17/13 12:22 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1707
Loc: London, England
The piano sounded very new. (?)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2084593 - 05/18/13 06:21 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
An effect of the 12-15th balance (and of non tempered 5ths)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2084736 - 05/18/13 12:38 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: Olek]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1707
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Olek
An effect of the 12-15th balance (and of non tempered 5ths)


What is???
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2084745 - 05/18/13 12:54 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
twelve "tempered" the same as the double octave; it is how treble and bass are tuned as explined Bill Bremmer.
That 12/15 relation is directly addressing 2 strong partials.
It is for me the higher limit of stretch

And at the same time a very strong consonant point.

It may give a very clean and clear "minor harmony like" tone generally speaking.

You asked about CHAS, the base of the CHAS idea is to tune the whole piano based on that balance between twelve and double octave.

That way the "warmness" of tempering is preserved in the twelve (the" pure twelve sound "dry" to me) SO the whole tuning is tempered, even if octaves are not basically tight in the mediums (while it can be done mixing the 12-15 and a 2:1 medium range)

You avoid with that tuning the sensation that 5-6th octaves are a hair above what we expect justness wise.
The consonance raise also the harmonic content generally speaking and makes the attack of the tone crisp, due to the immediate answer of the 12th and 15th every time a note is played (it slows the stabilization time)

The flow of partials is clearer and very present with that tuning, that is may be what ycould be noticed as "new piano" effect.
Alfredo find a very elegant method to deal with stretch and justness while following the piano spectra closely.

A certain amount of iH makes that tuning better.

When compared with "pure 5th" tunings (did you hear some of them ?) it is a really quiet and tempered tuning, even if the "Railsback curve" is straigtened . pure 5th or pure 12th are more "dry", to me and there is a sensation of the dancer making that "large gap" under some contexts

The mind adapts immediately to that justness because every pitch is really predictable. I have done that on a pianino Pleyel 1838 that plays with a cello, if you wish to hear that. The piano tone is what it is, but the justness is not a problem.

Best regards

Isaac




Edited by Olek (05/18/13 12:59 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2085501 - 05/20/13 12:22 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3224
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I will write a long post to clarify all of this as soon as I get time. I need to show what a Well Temperament is, what a Meantone temperament is and the Quasi Equal Temperament that I used all are with Jason Kanter's graphs, along with a brief explanation of each. I am glad you all enjoyed it, however. I also have enjoyed listening to the performance myself, not just because of the piano but because now, it is a truly historic event performed bu very high caliber musicians. I had originally intended to use the 1/9 Comma Meantone for this event but I decided at the last moment to use the ET via Marpurg.

Technically, it is still a non-equal temperament (my preferred term rather than unequal temperament but the two terms are synonymous) since the 4ths & 5ths beat the same rather than proportionately as in true ET.

What is important to know is that the F3-F4 octave is a 4:2 type, not anything wider than that. Oleg is right about the double octave and octave-fifth being equalized. I have done that for some 30 years.

What is different about what I did in this instance was not so much the tuning itself but how I approached it. Anyone else may, in fact make their 4ths & 5ths be tempered the same and not claim that it is anything significant or even realize that they have actually done that. It is an extremely small distinction. It is effectively "under the radar" of the PTG tuning exam because whatever deviation there is from theoretical ET is less than 1 cent.

Therefore, what you hear is, in fact, a Quasi Equal Temperament but as close to theoretical ET as you can get without it being quite so. I actually think of it (using a thought from the author, George Orwell) as being "more equal" than equal itself.

Because the 4ths & 5ths beat the same, when I play a tone cluster to tune an octave, example: tune G4 from G3, I play G3-C4-D4-G4 all together. When I tune G4 so that I hear absolutely ZERO beat, it means that all slight beats in the 4ths and 5th are effectively canceled.

No one can argue that the resultant G3-G4 octave does not sound in tune. I tune the double octaves the same way. Example: Tune F5. Play, F3-A#3-F4 together and then adjust F5 to that tone cluster until zero beat is heard. The single octave, F3-F4 is slightly wide, the double octave, F3-F5 is also slightly wide and the octave-fifth, A#3-F5 is still slightly narrow. When all notes are played together, however, the beats cancel themselves, so no beat is heard.

As far as I am concerned, that results in an optimum compromise for each of the pitches involved. When I tune a triple octave such as F3-F6, I play F3-A#3-F4-F5-F6, all together. Again, I place F6 at the point where zero beat is heard.

It turned out to be a good decision in this case because Professor Johannes Wallman played many intentionally dissonant and complex chords. The approach I used did not allow for contrast in key signature as I usually prefer but it did result in maximum clarity from the piano, no matter what was played.

The piano was tuned at A-440 pitch, period. I heard the Bass player wander a bit in pitch but after all, he is a string player whose fingers determine the pitch at any moment. It is not the first time that I have heard a highly regarded Bass player be on his own pitch level at times. No matter who tuned the piano and how, that could be expected.

Also, the nature of the music itself means that the instruments are played in quite a different manner than with classical music. The sounds heard are to be expected. If anyone thought they heard key signature contrasts, there were absolutely none but the power of suggestion may have applied. That is what I hear from many ET only advocates: they "hear" key signature contrasts where there cannot be any such occurrence if the temperament is truly ET.

Note to Oleg: When you use the word, "false" you are using it incorrectly, so it may be that you are not being understood when you do. It is true that the French word, "faux" usually translates to English as, "false". However, you must remember about what you may know as, "les faux amis". Expressions in French do not necessarily and quite often, do not translate word for word (literally) to English.

What you should say if you hear something that sounds like what you would call, "faux", you should say, "out of tune" in English. In other words, no English speaking person who heard a piano or group of musicians that sounds bad would ever say, "That sounds false" but they may very well say, "That sounds out of tune".

I am pleased that you did not find the piano which I tuned for that event to not be completely out of tune.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2085537 - 05/20/13 02:34 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
Thank you for the vocabulary, Bill, I was expecting a tiuning that depart more from ET. . That "chord" with octave , 4th and 5th together, is used by some tuners as a test for stretch and clarity of intervals in the treble.

I do not know what happened to that F , may be it was only machine tuned. I thought that you where using the 12-15 as soon as possible. In that case they should have a similar color than other intervals.

It may happen sometime that an iH peak in some note in the bottom of the long bridge push us a little out of the way, then one note is reproducing that to the bottom of the piano , it happened enough to me .

Using systematically the signal given by the consonant spot at 12-15 match seem to help with those sort of things.

That high bass region is also where recordings give a different impression from reality. Some longitudinal modes are may be also perturbating the mikes the ETD or your ears, or mines .

I liked the mediums and treble. That sort of music can use any smooth progressing tuning. I have heard some with a piano tuned at 2 bps for the temperament and it was sparkling.

Best regards
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2085598 - 05/20/13 07:10 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1707
Loc: London, England
Easy to say now, of course, but I did begin to suspect the more I listened.. It being open season recently on bluffs and double bluffs. The giveaway for me was the intonation in the single note treble. I like the intonation that an unequal temperament gives there and I was missing it. I put it down to the nebulous Intonation of more than one instrument in the middle area where I judge most of my intonation from. That happens whatever the temperament with any ensemble. That or the temperament had morphed into more equal on the way up.

That you chose a more equal temperament for this occasion partially answers my question about the degrees of tension in complex harmonies and pianists' expectations from a piano to give them what they are intending (or what the composer intended).

Thank you.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2085643 - 05/20/13 09:03 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: Olek]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3224
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Olek

I do not know what happened to that F , may be it was only machine tuned. I thought that you where using the 12-15 as soon as possible. In that case they should have a similar color than other intervals.
(snip)
I liked the mediums and treble. That sort of music can use any smooth progressing tuning. I have heard some with a piano tuned at 2 bps for the temperament and it was sparkling.

Best regards



Oleg,

I tuned the piano entirely by ear using the same tone cluster process throughout. This tuning was different from what you have heard from me before both in temperament and stretch.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2105095 - 06/19/13 10:06 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2345
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Just received 2 new pieces of recording equipment. This will make it easier to have good sound with a good video picture without having to sync both in software.

This digital recorder has a 1/8 inch Stereo 'camera out' that plugs directly into either a DSLR or Video camera that has a Stereo 1/8 input. This allows for a fairly high end sound, not quite as good as the mics going directly into the digital recorder, but darn close.

As an example, here is the video using the 1/8 inch Stereo jack into the video camera. Below that is the box.net file of the same recording using the XLR cables directly into the digital recorder. smile


M.Garson Jazz 1 http://youtu.be/PppXyVMhjTI

M.Garson Jazz 1 Stereo file https://www.box.com/s/zg5ol9le685stubuan23

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#2105103 - 06/19/13 10:21 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1197
Loc: Québec, Canada
That is very impressive as far as sound quality!!!

Could you not send an audio signal from your higher quality mics to the camera? With a mixer? And have the camera be the main audio recorder?

Just because this is the tech forum. And for fun. A leveling job should be done soon with the keys, and the tuning was not fresh?

I can easily see how a real person singing and playing your piano with this level of quality could make a video in your living room.

Very nice and all the best.
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#2105115 - 06/19/13 10:41 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: accordeur]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2345
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Thanks for the quick reply! smile Yes, I was actually in the middle of tuning it, got half the piano done, when the equipment arrived in the mail...:) I stopped tuning and hooked everything up and recorded. Def needs some work on the sting leveling and hammer mating etc.

Bill Bremmer is coming this weekend to tune it in his version of ET via Marpurg, which is what you are hearing, (not finished). I am sure he will address the shortcomings you mentioned.

This equip is new to me....I think the camera as the main recorder would not be as high a quality as the digital recorder, but I may be mistaken. Yes, you can send the XLR's through a mixer if the camera has an audio input. I needed a new digital recorder and camera as well. This digital recorder, the Tascam DR-60D was designed to have the high quality sound from the XLR's directly into a DSLR that has an audio in. However in my case, I am using a Canon Vixia video camera that has an audio input, which you can also disable the auto gain function. That is necessary, otherwise it would all sound the same dynamic level.

These mics are so accurate, amazing actually, one can hear all of this so clearly. It's even more important to have the piano sounding it's best with the quality these mics can deliver.

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#2108796 - 06/26/13 11:34 PM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: daniokeeper]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2345
Loc: Portland, Oregon
I just posted some very nice sounding Jazz files tuned in the ET via Marpurg Temperament over this last weekend. Bill did a personal tuning using this temperament on my M&H 7ft grand. Here is the link to that posting.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2108790/My%20Piano%20in%20the

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#2108869 - 06/27/13 03:59 AM Re: Best UTs for Jazz [Re: Grandpianoman]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
Thanks for the videos, I added some comments.

The basses sound warm and open. but I dont agree on the clusters method as proposed for beginners, it does not give the wanted precision, does not push to learn to listen to the activity individually, the tone is sunk in a maelstrom of noise so the ear get tired and you can have a false impression of eveness between the 2 intervals

The main usefulness is that it have something musical inherent to clusters, be it stack of M3ds (used by experimented tuners who know how it sound when balanced).

The initial bearing seem difficult and imprecise to me.

Beginner usually learn to appreciate what is called tempering.The amount of activity in intervals.
If they cannot, this is mostly because they do not master the tuning lever yet, not for listening reasons
The one that cannot learn to hear slow beats should think of another activity.
They are not obliged to be able to count or to really have them exactly similar, but at last an appreciation between one beat in 5 seconds and one beat in 3 seconds (for instance) should be minimum to set bearings with a controlled quality on 5ths.

This is way more easy than envisaged generally, as the rhythm used to play the notes in sequence gives the tuner the necessary time stamp, we do not listen to "beats" but to the beginning of a beat. that one come more or less soon in the tone, hence the importance to play rhythmically and quietly.

(without being hypnotized!)
Tuners use Fast beats because they can appreciate them sooner in time, mostly, using slow intervals is ... slower.

I see no other way, any interval can be used once the relations are understood On the bearing plan I find the F4 A4 sound strange all along probably due to that choice of: octave, that have no acoustical justification on that piano, to me (and the F3 seem to cause trouble later)

The bump and test method is leaving the pins torqued unevenly, even if with much experience the tuning can hold well for some time that way, it does not allow to put the pin in a controlled definite position with some controlled amount of energy stored in it .
If used , each pin must be tested by pushing it a little low and a little high , so to know where it is and where is the front segment. if when pushing high the tone does not move, the font segment is less tense than the speaking lenght and the note can slip if enough energy is entered. (hence test blows)

Still , I see no managing of that part of the tuning, that is noticed tone wise in the high treble , where it is important to be dealing with front duplexes, helping the piano to have more sparkle and cleaner top spectra.

That said The unison color is worked, but there is no energy concentration at the attack - it is heard when the sustain pedal is not used (at +- 16:00 on the first video)

Because you cannot tune early enough in tone with that method that would ask for a third hand.

Counting on the sustain to obtain a controlled attack is as counting on one set of beats to find resonance, some part is missing because it is too small in time, then only the tail remains. That gives a tone that the pianist cannot manipulate enough as if he played in blotting paper.

That goes well on the LX but"something" would miss to the pianist until he played the piano enough to "make the tone" a little, when possible.

Thanks for making those videos. Thanks Mr Bremmer.








Edited by Olek (06/27/13 04:41 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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