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#2105755 - 06/21/13 01:23 PM Steingraeber & Söhne
williambonard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/11
Posts: 87
Loc: Essex, UK
Hi all,

Just wanted to know what your thoughts are on Steingraebers?

I was fortunate enough to look at some last week (as I'm looking to buy a new grand in a couple of months time). Due to space though I'm a tad limited.

In particular I looked at the Steingraeber A-170 and my, oh my, what a beautiful piano! What stood out to me the most was its beautiful tone and absolutely wonderful action which was so fluid and easy to control. I haven't played such a piano in an awfully long time - beats my Kawai any day!

However, this model of Steingraeber I played was one of their 'Phoenix' counterparts at Hurstwood Farm Pianos (where I played the piano - I'm from the UK, you see). It was rather remarkable actually for a piano featuring the carbon fibre soundboard, carbon fibre action and the bridge agraffe system with adjustable hitch pins. I particularly remember the piano being full of power, however I don't know if this was due to the excellency of Steingraeber or due to the carbon fibre soundboard and bridge agraffe system.

I'm seriously considering a Steingraeber however I'm not sure as to whether I should opt for the traditional Steingraeber model or the Phoenix one? I'd like to know what people think and what their opinions are having played both models.

If I can (as the next model up is only a few thousand more), I'd like to see if I can get the B-192 as I'm sure the bass and power of the piano would be even better than the A -170 - we'll have to see.

I would greatly appreciate all opinions on Steingraeber & Söhne and what people think of their Phoenix counterparts.

Thanks,

William


Edited by williambonard (06/21/13 01:28 PM)
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#2105763 - 06/21/13 01:29 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
lilylady Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 4974
Loc: boston north
Search the archives!

Lots written.

My favorite mfg, BTW, even if I cannot afford one.
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#2105764 - 06/21/13 01:31 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
ClsscLib Online   content

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1589
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Well, I'm a fan, now being on my second Steingraeber. (My wife says it's my last, and she's probably right!) I confess to not having played the Phoenix or carbon fiber soundboard versions, but I'm very pleased with the traditional models.

That said, tastes in piano sound/touch vary so much from person to person! Especially when looking at an investment of this magnitude, you owe it to yourself to play as many different types of pianos in your price range (and below it) as you can manage. You might still like the Steingraeber best, but there are a lot of wonderful types of pianos available.

Enjoy the journey!


Edited by ClsscLib (06/21/13 01:32 PM)
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#2105768 - 06/21/13 01:34 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
pianoloverus Offline
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Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19097
Loc: New York City
I can't help with your questions, but am wondering how the 192 can be only a few thousand more than the 170. The SMP's in the Piano Buyer for those two models differ by 24K. Is one model a Phoenix and the other a regular Steingraeber?

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#2105771 - 06/21/13 01:37 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: pianoloverus]
williambonard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/11
Posts: 87
Loc: Essex, UK
Well, under the price list I have here sitting right next to me it states the A-170 is £34,602 and the B-192 is £37,499.

However these prices are listed under the 'Phoenix pianos' with the carbon fibre et al. When I chatted with the man in the store though, he said the traditional Steingraeber models were a similar price (we're talking about a difference within several hundred pounds).

Maybe I'm wrong, or mis-heard? I'd hate for the traditional Steingraeber pianos to be masses more expensive than the Phoenix ones! :-(
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#2105779 - 06/21/13 01:50 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6074
Loc: Rochester MN
Hi William,

In the US, the Phoenix models are rather scarce and many of us have not played them to compare. This includes me and I look forward to sampling them.

Along with Steinway, the Steingraeber is at the top of my list. Their voices are different, but both magnificent. The first time any pianist plays a Steingraeber, it is a special moment.

You are correct about the bass in the B192. There is a big difference from the A170, however it is also a truly fine piano. Budget available, the larger piano does make a difference.

Have fun shopping.

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#2105894 - 06/21/13 05:51 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19097
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: williambonard
Well, under the price list I have here sitting right next to me it states the A-170 is £34,602 and the B-192 is £37,499.

However these prices are listed under the 'Phoenix pianos' with the carbon fibre et al. When I chatted with the man in the store though, he said the traditional Steingraeber models were a similar price (we're talking about a difference within several hundred pounds).

Maybe I'm wrong, or mis-heard? I'd hate for the traditional Steingraeber pianos to be masses more expensive than the Phoenix ones! :-(
Perhaps the differences in our two figures are because the Piano Buyer is meant for North America and the prices are much lower in your local. I can't imagine any in the US only paying 5K more for the 192 Steingraeber model compared to the 170.

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#2105911 - 06/21/13 06:30 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: pianoloverus]
Voltara Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 07/29/09
Posts: 118
The Hurstwood Farm web site lists those prices for their "Phoenix" pianos, which seem to be distinct from the "Steingraeber-Phoenix" pianos. Notice the different fallboard logos in the photos. They don't list the prices of the Steingraeber-Phoenix pianos on their web site, only the Phoenix branded pianos.

I'd be curious to hear what a carbon fibre soundboard is like.

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#2105939 - 06/21/13 07:50 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3296
Originally Posted By: williambonard
Hi all,

Just wanted to know what your thoughts are on Steingraebers?

I was fortunate enough to look at some last week (as I'm looking to buy a new grand in a couple of months time). Due to space though I'm a tad limited.

In particular I looked at the Steingraeber A-170 and my, oh my, what a beautiful piano! What stood out to me the most was its beautiful tone and absolutely wonderful action which was so fluid and easy to control. I haven't played such a piano in an awfully long time - beats my Kawai any day!

However, this model of Steingraeber I played was one of their 'Phoenix' counterparts at Hurstwood Farm Pianos (where I played the piano - I'm from the UK, you see). It was rather remarkable actually for a piano featuring the carbon fibre soundboard, carbon fibre action and the bridge agraffe system with adjustable hitch pins. I particularly remember the piano being full of power, however I don't know if this was due to the excellency of Steingraeber or due to the carbon fibre soundboard and bridge agraffe system.

I'm seriously considering a Steingraeber however I'm not sure as to whether I should opt for the traditional Steingraeber model or the Phoenix one? I'd like to know what people think and what their opinions are having played both models.

If I can (as the next model up is only a few thousand more), I'd like to see if I can get the B-192 as I'm sure the bass and power of the piano would be even better than the A -170 - we'll have to see.

I would greatly appreciate all opinions on Steingraeber & Söhne and what people think of their Phoenix counterparts.

Thanks,

William


You should be able to answer these questions yourself by visiting Hurstwood Farm yourself and playing the pianos. Richard Dain is a very generous host, and wouldn't mind you visiting multiple times.

That said, I've had the opportunity to play a lot of Steingraebers, both with and without the Phoenix system. All else being equal, I usually prefer the Phoenix instruments.
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#2105941 - 06/21/13 07:55 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: pianoloverus]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3296
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I can't help with your questions, but am wondering how the 192 can be only a few thousand more than the 170. The SMP's in the Piano Buyer for those two models differ by 24K. Is one model a Phoenix and the other a regular Steingraeber?


The usual Piano Buyer pricing is not applicable at Hurstwood Farm. The prices there are considerably lower (edit: at Hurstwood).
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#2105961 - 06/21/13 08:50 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: beethoven986]
ClsscLib Online   content

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1589
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I can't help with your questions, but am wondering how the 192 can be only a few thousand more than the 170. The SMP's in the Piano Buyer for those two models differ by 24K. Is one model a Phoenix and the other a regular Steingraeber?


The usual Piano Buyer pricing is not applicable at Hurstwood Farm. The prices there are considerably lower.


Huh. My wife is always telling me I'd do better to shop at the Farmers' Market.
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#2106342 - 06/22/13 04:44 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
williambonard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/11
Posts: 87
Loc: Essex, UK
Thanks for all your help and input everybody. It's greatly appreciated.

I think if I were to go with a Steingraeber, I'd rather one of the traditional models with the spruce soundboard and wood action as oppose to their carbon fibre counterparts.

However, I hope the prices for a 'traditional' Steingraeber, so to speak, aren't too different from the ones that I have listed for the Phoenix-Steingraeber models.

I was lucky enough to have met Mr Dain and he was very welcoming and knowledgeable. If I remember rightly, he said one of their pianos with a spruce soundboard opposed to a carbon fibre soundboard would be a couple hundred of pounds cheaper - however, he did not specify whether this was for a Phoenix-Steingraeber or a traditional Steingraeber & Söhne.

Once again, thanks for your help.

I'd love it if anyone else could just throw in their opinions of Steingraebers having played them!
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#2106351 - 06/22/13 05:04 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
lilylady Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 4974
Loc: boston north
"I'd love it if anyone else could just throw in their opinions of Steingraebers having played them!"

Again - search the archives. Do your PW homework... We've all said it before! You will get more input from past threads.
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#2106352 - 06/22/13 05:08 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
joe80 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 954
Personally, I prefer the sound of the wood soundboard. However, there are many here who disagree with me on that, so it really is a matter of taste.

The WNG action is a different matter - the carbon fibre is at least impervious to changes in humidity, but there are many wood actions in high end pianos that work perfectly well within reasonable parameters. I prefer the slightly heavier touch of wood, but that's because it's what I'm used to and I'm open minded to changes.

Steingraeber is a fine piano indeed, with a beautiful tone, so I don't think you'd be disappointed with a traditional one.

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#2106369 - 06/22/13 05:46 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
williambonard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/11
Posts: 87
Loc: Essex, UK
lilylady: I'm on it! About to search the forums now!

joe80: Thanks for your input. I did notice although the touch was almost perfect on the Phoenix-Steingraeber I played with the carbon fibre action it was just a tad on the light side for me. So it's nice knowing the traditional one is a bit heavier!

I'd like to think I wouldn't be disappointed with a traditional one - especially due to their price!
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#2106371 - 06/22/13 05:52 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
Norbert Online   content
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Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13968
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
Personally, I prefer the sound of the wood soundboard. However, there are many here who disagree with me on that, so it really is a matter of taste.


In a recent comparison involving some 12 odd grands at Steingraeber factory, I wasn't able to spot which is which.

Udo gave an hour to play around challenging me the one among them.

Was wrong.

Should have taken picture of Udo's grin....priceless

Norbert grin
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#2106385 - 06/22/13 06:16 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: Norbert]
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3249
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
Personally, I prefer the sound of the wood soundboard. However, there are many here who disagree with me on that, so it really is a matter of taste.


In a recent comparison involving some 12 odd grands at Steingraeber factory, I wasn't able to spot which is which.



I have to say I find that quite surprising based on my experience being completely opposite and finding the 2 types of boards to sound radically different. If I could think of a stronger adverb I would use it.
On second thought, since the carbon fiber boards also had the pheonix bridges, I can't say that I have really compared apples to apples with carbon boards to wood boards and everything else the same.
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#2106393 - 06/22/13 06:34 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
Norbert Online   content
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Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13968
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
On second thought, since the carbon fiber boards also had the pheonix bridges, I can't say that I have really compared apples to apples with carbon boards to wood boards and everything else the same.


Perhaps that's it - who knows...

Udo obviously playing tricks with his visitors to factory.

Consoling me later "nobody has been right to date"...

Norbert whistle


Edited by Norbert (06/22/13 06:35 PM)
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#2106666 - 06/23/13 10:48 AM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
Almaviva Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 436
Loc: Richmond, Virginia
William,

Your price list states that the Steingraeber B192 goes for 34,799 pounds. At the current exchange rate of $1.56 = 1 pound, that piano would cost $54,286.44, which is less than half of the Suggested Maximum Price in Piano Buyer!

How can this be? If this is true, perhaps I should arrange a piano-buying vacation to the U.K! smile

Does anybody know how much it would cost to ship a 6-7-ft. grand piano from the U.K. to the States?

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#2106678 - 06/23/13 11:13 AM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: Almaviva]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1795
Loc: Suffolk, England
Hurstwood Phoenix
170 £34602.00
212 £38952.00
232 £44289.00
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#2106681 - 06/23/13 11:18 AM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
williambonard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/11
Posts: 87
Loc: Essex, UK
Hmn, something doesn't seem to fit then. Steingraebers aren't cheap pianos and I see no reason as to why they should be so much cheaper in the UK than the US.

I think quite possibly that the price list I had for the B-192 at £37,499 was for the Phoenix-Steingraeber pianos. Or quite possibly just Hurstwood Farm's Phoenix brand.

I'll email during the week and find out how much a Steingraeber & Söhne will cost - with no Phoenix involved!

I'll let you know soon.


Edited by williambonard (06/23/13 11:20 AM)
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#2106727 - 06/23/13 12:53 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
Norbert Online   content
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Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13968
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
Hmn, something doesn't seem to fit then. Steingraebers aren't cheap pianos and I see no reason as to why they should be so much cheaper in the UK than the US.


People forget how expensive it is to import these pianos to this continent.

Most of these high end pianos are flown in, not shipped by vessel.

We have 2 Sauter grands coming right now, both by air:
total transportation & duties coming to almost $ 5000 each.

Norbert
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#2106787 - 06/23/13 02:21 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: Norbert]
terminaldegree Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 2555
Loc: western Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: Norbert

Most of these high end pianos are flown in, not shipped by vessel.
We have 2 Sauter grands coming right now, both by air:
total transportation & duties coming to almost $ 5000 each.


Wow, Norbert - I had no idea these were shipped via air cargo regularly! I learned something new today...
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#2106811 - 06/23/13 02:52 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
noambenhamou Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Loc: West coast
Out of curiosity, in the airplane, do they control the temperature of the cabin where the piano is stored? At 40,000 cruising altitude, it's VERY VERY cold. Colder than putting your piano in Antarctica for 10 hours out in the elements.

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#2106815 - 06/23/13 03:01 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
williambonard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/11
Posts: 87
Loc: Essex, UK
Hmn, that's a thought. Do you think air travel could be quite damaging for a piano?

If I knew I was having an expensive piano (such as a Steingraeber!) shipped over via air-cargo I'd like to think the cabin's climate would be controlled to minimise the risk of damage to my piano.
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#2106819 - 06/23/13 03:04 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6074
Loc: Rochester MN
Pets are also transported in the cargo hold. Do they arrive frozen?
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#2106820 - 06/23/13 03:10 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: Minnesota Marty]
noambenhamou Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Loc: West coast
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Pets are also transported in the cargo hold. Do they arrive frozen?


You are very smart and clever. You must be proud of yourself.

Anyway - there are two types of cargo planes. Pressurized and temp controlled cargo, for cats and dogs etc... and stuff that doesn't need it.

My question is, what do they do with pianos? Do they usually spend the extra $$$ or cut corners and send the cheaper "colder" route?

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#2106832 - 06/23/13 03:59 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: noambenhamou]
master88er Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 789
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: noambenhamou
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Pets are also transported in the cargo hold. Do they arrive frozen?


You are very smart and clever. You must be proud of yourself.

Anyway - there are two types of cargo planes. Pressurized and temp controlled cargo, for cats and dogs etc... and stuff that doesn't need it.

My question is, what do they do with pianos? Do they usually spend the extra $$$ or cut corners and send the cheaper "colder" route?


We have been importing pianos from Europe for over 30 years, and always use air freight to ship the instruments. This is far less stressful on the piano than a nice ocean voyage... maybe because they don't get the "midnight Buffet" on a plane ride smile

As Norbert indicated, it's not a cheap means of transportation, and no, they don't get frequent flyer miles. With Sauter's, not only do they arrive perfectly, but also they mostly arrive in tune and ready to play. The crates are insulated and very sturdy. Amazing. While the crates are somewhat over-the-top, I have seen many used by Homeless a few blocks from the shop as new residences. sick

Consumers often fail to realize that there is duty (6%) and freight (airfreight, customs clearance charges, freight charges to store, uncrating) to add to the Euro price of the instruments, plus dealer prep. I know for a fact that PianoBuyer does factor most of these things in when calculating retail price, and is one reason why these instruments are not heavily discounted becuase dealers don't make any profit on freight charges - just pure cost. But, for instruments the caliber of Grotrian, Bosendorfer, Sauter, Steingraeber etc. the actual costs and benefit of less stressful cartage add up to a reasonable sum considering the over-all financial outlay.

Those that come by ship, such as Estonia, Petrof, W.Hoffmann, or Asian products, have far less cost associated with getting them here and those costs are more commensurate with their retail selling price. Airfreight on those products would be an outrageous percentage when calculated against their selling price.


Edited by master88er (06/23/13 04:02 PM)
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#2106836 - 06/23/13 04:03 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
williambonard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/11
Posts: 87
Loc: Essex, UK
Thank you master88er for your valuable contribution. I'm sure I can speak on behalf of the others that it's helped cleared things up.

It may also help discover why the prices I have for the Steingraebers are so much cheaper here in the UK than in the US as the shipping costs will be a lot less.

Once again, thank you!
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#2106859 - 06/23/13 04:58 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: Almaviva]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3296
Originally Posted By: Almaviva

How can this be?


The clue is in the dealer's name: Hurstwood Farm. The "farm" part isn't just there for the heck of it... it's really a farm! They're located well outside of London, in the countryside. Very pretty (see below). The pianos are housed in an old barn, which has been converted into the showroom. As a result, they have very low overhead.

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Spinoff: What do we think of "technique seminars"?
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