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#2105694 - 06/21/13 11:05 AM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: Rudy99golf]
joe80 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 952
I know two out of these three pianists personally. I can tell you that things said on promotional videos often differ from what they really think. One of them really loves the AvantGrand, the other isn't so keen on it.

I guess it depends if the piano matches the pianist.

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#2105700 - 06/21/13 11:24 AM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: Rudy99golf]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Thank you for reminding me.

......And don't get suckered into promotional videos. ....

These don't even sound like recordings of real pianos. (with all due respect to the manufacturer but they do know precisely what they're doing).


Edited by rxd (06/21/13 12:09 PM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2105793 - 06/21/13 02:12 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: Rudy99golf]
joe80 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 952
Exactly. The AvantGrand is a good high-end digital piano. That is what it is. It isn't an acoustic. It doesn't feel or sound like an acoustic, not really, not to the seasoned pianist. They are good for hobbyists and good for situations where a pianist really can't have an acoustic - limited space, living in the outer hebrides with no technician for light years, sensitive neighbours - but for a conservatoire, acoustic is the way to go.

Perhaps the avant grand will find its way into the conservatoires for keyboard skills classes, music theory classes, all applications where an acoustic piano isn't necessary - but that rules it out for chamber music rehearsals, accompanying singers, lieder performance, all solo and concerto work, some practice (I use a digital for some practice, it's true, but I NEED the acoustic if I want to sound good on the day), and certainly all teaching work.

Call me old-fashioned but I like my pianos to have strings.

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#2105810 - 06/21/13 02:54 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: joe80]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4389
I've spoken at length to one of those pianists about his use of the AvantGrand.

It's obvious that he uses it for getting the notes 'under his fingers' rather than for serious preparation (like developing his interpretation in terms of phrasing, tonal nuances, dynamics, voicing etc) for concert performance, for which he has his acoustic grands. The AG for him is basically a tool to thrash on (e.g. for repeated repetition of tricky passages and so forth), to save wear & tear on his acoustics.

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#2105874 - 06/21/13 05:11 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: Rudy99golf]
joe80 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 952
Yeah, that's what its for, actually all these pianists are bloody good and can cope with practising on a digital. I am pro digital pianos, but not for teaching purposes.

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#2105886 - 06/21/13 05:34 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: Rudy99golf]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5260
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
So it's the consensus here that an AvantGrand such as the N1 with a grand piano action would be less desirable than an acoustic upright piano for practice purposes? Really?

The original poster is looking for 15 upright pianos. You think that all 15 upright pianos would be a better choice than having at least several grand piano actions in the form of a hybrid?

Am I understanding everyone correctly?

I live in the real world and would love to practice on a Bösendorfer (which is now owned by Yamaha) grand - I can tell the difference between an excellent grand and a hybrid, but I have neighbors on both sides of me and given the limitations of life and money, have opted for a grand piano action coupled to an excellent grand piano sample.

I used to have my C3 tuned six times per year I should mention. I'd also love for Irving from Faust Harrison Pianos to chime in.
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#2105895 - 06/21/13 05:53 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: Rudy99golf]
master88er Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 789
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Rudy99golf
As I have mentioned before, I am a member in the board of our local conservatory.

With all experts in this forum I know there are many of you that can sugest specific models and brands. (Sorry guys, we cannot afford Bosies, S&S, or such, but maybe we can get Yamahas or other similar).

Ready for your comments.


Hi Rudy:

The suggestions by Sam are all very good options. I would add one more to that list: the Ritmuller 120RE. This is an institutional design (double castors, locks for lid and fallboard) and are very durable instruments. We have sold quite a few of these in the last two years to many institutions and they are holding up quite well under extreme use. Conservatories, like the San Francisco Conservatory, Shanghai Conservatory and others have put these pianos through their paces and find them to be very stable instruments.

In your circumstances, with dry heat alternating with humid conditions, the Thomma designed - engineered soundboard will keep the tuning very stable and it produces very deep and resonant sound when compared to competitors like the UST-7 or P22.

I am sure you have a distributor for Pearl River products in Mexico, and if I can be of any assistance in putting you directly in touch with the export manager in Guangzhou (Pearl River factory), let me know.
_________________________
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R.KASSMAN, Purveyor of Fine Pianos
Berkeley, CA

FORMER US Rep.for C.Bechstein

SF Area Dealer: Steingraeber•Grotrian•Sauter•Estonia•Kayserburg•Baldwin•Brodmann•Ritmüller
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russell@rkassman.com
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#2105899 - 06/21/13 06:02 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: Rudy99golf]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6067
Loc: Rochester MN
Mr. Horn,

Really!

BTW - It is a rare conservatory that worries about neighbor's complaints about the volume of practice room pianos.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2105900 - 06/21/13 06:06 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: Dave Horne]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4389
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
So it's the consensus here that an AvantGrand such as the N1 with a grand piano action would be less desirable than an acoustic upright piano for practice purposes? Really?

The original poster is looking for 15 upright pianos. You think that all 15 upright pianos would be a better choice than having at least several grand piano actions in the form of a hybrid?

Am I understanding everyone correctly?




A conservatory that has classical music as its core, and (piano) teaching at a high level needs a lot, lot more than merely a grand action for its instruments, no matter how 'authentic' that action is.

I can't speak for other kinds of music, but classical music teaching at that level concentrates on interpretation, and cultivation of beautiful tone production and the minutiae of phrasing, voicing, dynamics, articulation etc, rather than on the mechanics of pure technique. The AG is great for the last, but somewhat deficient in all the rest.
I don't think any of those AG classical pianists would claim that they use their AG for developing their interpretation.....not even for a promotional video.

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#2105908 - 06/21/13 06:23 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: Dave Horne]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1166
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne


The original poster is looking for 15 upright pianos.... I live in the real world and would love to practice on a...


Hi Dave,

I live in the real word too. I make my students play on my Mason and Hamlin, and I demonstrate on my Bechstein which is really my second piano. Yes, they get the better one, because it never lies, and reveals every sin. The same simply cannot be said even for even these vastly improved electronic instruments.

Yes, I believe you have the consensus right, and for a number of very good reasons some of which we stated. For another, this conservatory is not some young children's conservatory teaching a method, where piano is taught in a class, and everybody wears earphones even the teacher. This is already a major regional or national institution that has to turn out the best-trained musicians possible, who will compete at a national and international level to launch a career. In our opinion, we think that can only be achieved on an acoustic instrument, even one in indifferent or poor condition.

For one thing, it has been my experience that an advancing piano student forming a color palette is done a disservice technically and aurally when they only have electronic instruments to practice on. When they get to an acoustic instrument, they cannot make the adjustment to produce the wide array of tonal colors an emerging young artist must be able to produce to 1- master period style, 2- present well at exams, 3- effectively compete in contests, and 4- prepare programs for auditions and concerts.

I also agree with everybody that nobody should give to much credence to paid endorsements.


Edited by laguna_greg (06/21/13 08:32 PM)
Edit Reason: clarity
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2105933 - 06/21/13 07:32 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: Rudy99golf]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2630
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Practice studio instruments serve a variety of needs in a conservatory. Yamaha's hybrid models are excellent for many of those needs but still falter in one important area.

Pedal simulations & speaker technology are still inadequate to help an intermediate player develop into an advanced player on anything other than a good quality, acoustic piano.

Once a pianist has already reached an advanced level with significant experience on acoustic pianos, the hybrids make both excellent tools and, because of their conveniences, nice performance instruments.

I can see merit and wisdom in having a couple of hybrids included in the stable of instruments, but I believe the majority of instruments should be acoustic. It's what students need a the conservatory level to reach their goals.
_________________________
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PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
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#2105946 - 06/21/13 08:01 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: laguna_greg]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5260
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
I live in the real word too. I make my students play on my Mason and Hamlin, and I demonstrate on my Bechstein which is really my second piano. Yes, they get the better one, because it never lies, and reveals every sin. The same simply cannot be said even for these vastly improved electronic instruments.

I can honestly state that I have played thousands of hours on both types of pianos, acoustics and hybrids.

May I ask how many hours you've logged on a hybrid?
_________________________
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#2105954 - 06/21/13 08:27 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: Dave Horne]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1166
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Hi Dave,

Enough to know the difference. I certainly would never perform Mozart or Debussy on one on stage, or chamber music, or solo with an orchestra on one.


Edited by laguna_greg (06/21/13 08:31 PM)
Edit Reason: clarity
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2106072 - 06/22/13 03:02 AM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: Dave Horne]
irving Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 705
Loc: Irvington, NY
Quote:
from DAVE HORNE: The original poster is looking for 15 upright pianos. You think that all 15 upright pianos would be a better choice than having at least several grand piano actions in the form of a hybrid?

I used to have my C3 tuned six times per year I should mention. I'd also love for Irving from Faust Harrison Pianos to chime in.


Hi Dave,

Thank you for sending me a message about this post and inviting me to chime in. It seems to me that you feel that you're making not only a reasonable and logical suggestion, but also one that is quite modest. You're dismayed that hardly a soul (the exception being the eminently sensible Sam Bennett) is willing to give you an inch - to simply acknowledge that what you're saying has even a bit of merit.

I can sympathize with your frustration. I make suggestions to all sorts of people all the time. Some of them even pay me handsomely for my advice. But I don't have enough hairs on my ample mane to count the times that the most brilliant of my ideas aren't given the time of day by anyone.

Sometimes I persevere in spite of the naysayers, in spite of the overwhelming consensus that I'm tilting at windmills. And I can assure you that there is no greater satisfaction than proving them all wrong. But more often than not, I just tell myself that I'm ahead of my time and wait for time (and the efforts of others) to do the proving for me. (And, of course, my ideas are not all brilliant; some turn out to be pretty dumb).

The N2, to my mind the hybrid of choice for the conservatory that can afford it, and the NU1, the hybrid of choice for the conservatory on a tight budget, are slowly but surely making their way into practically every school that we work with in the NY area (and into many other schools across the country). The overworked techs who service the schools' pianos tend to adore them - as do many students who appreciate being able to hear what they're playing without an assault of sounds from neighboring instruments.

As more and more conservatories slowly add hybrids to their stables of pianos, the conventional wisdom (no matter how widespread and certain) will be put fully to the test. My prediction, Dave, is that you'll be proven right. Hybrids won't (at least not in the near future) serve every need of every school, but they will serve an important enough need that eventually there will hardly be a piano department that doesn't have at least a few of them.

Full disclosure: Faust Harrison Pianos is in the business of selling Yamaha hybrids (as well as all sorts of acoustic pianos). So we profit, either directly or indirectly, whenever a school buys a hybrid.

Side note: Some of you may wonder why I haven't been here for the past few years. It's not because it stopped being fun, but because it was taking too much of my time. Thoughtful writing doesn't happen quickly (at least not for me) and it's hard to avoid engaging (and re-engaging) with people who say favorable things about me or my company or about my ideas and commentary. It's even harder to avoid dialogue (sometimes extensive) with people who say unfavorable things. Maybe one day I'll retire from my day job and re-establish myself here - but I don't think this will happen any time soon. Thanks to Yamaha and Steinway and the steady stream of extraordinary musicians and artists that keeps coming by, the day job keeps getting better. Drop by and take a tour of our White Plains, NY showroom and factory and see for yourself. If you mention that you're from PianoWorld and I'm anywhere in the vicinity, I'll take you on the tour myself.


Edited by irving (06/22/13 03:11 AM)
_________________________
Irving
Faust Harrison Pianos
We sell new Bechsteins, Yamahas, Mason & Hamlins, Brodmanns and W. Hoffmanns, and rebuilt vintage Steinways. All rebuilding is done in our own factory. www.faustharrisonpianos.com

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#2106079 - 06/22/13 03:52 AM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: Rudy99golf]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Most, if not all conservatories have rooms full of digitals for teaching basic keyboard skills. There are rooms that a real piano cannot be installed. We have a room that is used by cello ensembles. They ask for a real upright in there regularly. I have to leave the digital in there because the acoustic of the small room emphasises the soundboard reflection of any upright and interferes with the ensemble and rings on when they finish even when there isn't a piano in the ensemble. Digitals definately have their place.
I don't think anybody here has dismissed them without "giving an inch". They are not a substitute for even an upright as a practice piano for a serious pianist and we made that precise distinction.

This very reasonable discussion was interrupted by the spurious claims of some promotional videos that really proved our point.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2106136 - 06/22/13 09:58 AM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: rxd]
irving Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 705
Loc: Irvington, NY
Which speaks exactly to my point. Nowhere in my post did I mention the word "digital"; nowhere in your response RXD do you mention the word "hybrid". You say that "digitals definitely have their place" but you don't even acknowledge that "hybrids definitely have their place" too. No wonder Dave Horne is frustrated. But that's okay. The real world is rapidly learning the difference and buying hybrids in ever-increasing numbers. Conservatories and piano departments are slowly adding hybrids to their piano collections in addition to their "digitals".
_________________________
Irving
Faust Harrison Pianos
We sell new Bechsteins, Yamahas, Mason & Hamlins, Brodmanns and W. Hoffmanns, and rebuilt vintage Steinways. All rebuilding is done in our own factory. www.faustharrisonpianos.com

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#2106149 - 06/22/13 10:54 AM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: Rudy99golf]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5260
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
As I've stated many times, I am aware and can appreciate, of course, the differences between a hybrid and an acoustic. I owned a C3 for 12 years or so and before that a UID upright that I used 20 years.

I have always had the idea of a real grand piano action married to a sampled grand. About 14 or 15 years ago I played a theater job and the piano I played was the first generation Yamaha hybrid, the GranTouch. I traded in my C3 for that model within a few months. My playing didn't suffer and the joy of having a perfectly in tune piano every morning was greatly appreciated by me.

I realize that everything in life is a trade off and for my purposes, I can live with those trade offs. For me the action comes in first place with the sound a very close second place.

When I played that GranTouch for the first time, I was unaware that Yamaha had introduced that hybrid a few years before. While hybrids will never replace a concert grand on stage, they, at least for me, provide me with a piano I can live with. I am planning to buy the NU1 just to have another action in the house to play on. I personally find upright actions more difficult to control than grand actions, but maybe that's just me.

When I was in college as a classical organ major, I would take my lessons on a pipe organ, at home I practiced on a Hammond B3, and at school (Temple University) on a very modest Allen digital organ. We just made do with what we had to work with.
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

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#2106176 - 06/22/13 12:13 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: Rudy99golf]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6067
Loc: Rochester MN
Many of us have expressed an opinion in answer to a direct question by the OP.

What becomes frustrating is when other members try to convince us that our opinions are wrong. Disagreement is fine and it is for the OP to make the decision. Address your opinions to the OP, not to other members. We are capable of making our own assessments and formulating our own opinions.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2106191 - 06/22/13 12:46 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: Minnesota Marty]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1166
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
What Marty said!

Another thing to consider is that the faculty at the conservatory will have a lot to say about the instruments to be installed. These, I would imagine, are among the top teachers in the nation. I doubt they will be supportive of installing anything electronic in the practice rooms unless they are composers, in which case they'll have an electronics lab all to themselves which won't be in the practice rooms.

Oh, and another thing. All these suggestions "pro" would be a little more digestible if you guys had ever had any experience preparing an advanced student for a major contest, audition, or a concert appearance of any kind before a paying audience/critics. This is something I do with my students on a regular basis. Marty does too, and so does Joe, et cetera. Since we've all done that with some success, we find it difficult to believe that you don't value our collective experience or respect our opinions.

From my perspective, it just sounds like you two are trying sell more electronic PSOs.

Yours in all sincerity,
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2106192 - 06/22/13 12:47 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: Rudy99golf]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Irving, thank you for pointing that out. I went shopping for a hybrid for a shut-in friend of mine 3 years ago. I finished up with a Quietime (I think that's the term) upright for depth of tone on the real side and more realistic damper timing feel on the electronic side. Now that she has her own free standing property, she never uses the electronic side and may Trade it for a large grand now that she has the room, mainly because the hybrid action is compromised.

Is Quietime an example of the type of hybrid you are refering to?

If it is, I didn't even think of it as an option because price is an issue in this thread and hybrids are ( naturally) much more expensive. I did give some thought to its usefulness in the Conservatory that she attended when she was revising her will so I have considered this.

I am familiar on a daily basis with sound bleedthrough in modern practice rooms, Pianos, grand or upright do not present a problem. (Remedial saxophone does).

Those are the reasons I didn't even consider hybrids as a viable proposition. If I am out of date in my thinking or otherwise misguided, please bring me up to date and I will go to the local dealer with my faculty head next time we lunch.


Edited by rxd (06/22/13 01:19 PM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2106203 - 06/22/13 12:59 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: Minnesota Marty]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4389
It seems to me that this emphasis (by a couple of people here) on 'hybrid' rather than 'digital' just dodges the question of exactly what classical pianists look for in a serious instrument to develop and perfect their interpretation, and goes along with what Yamaha wants potential customers to do - to forget that what they're playing a digital. When all is said and done, the AvantGrands are digital pianos: nothing in their sound generation remotely simulates what accomplished pianists would get from playing on an acoustic, vertical or grand.

I've just returned from a trip downtown, where I dropped into the Yamaha store to play their AGs and NU1, then immediately down the road to Steinway Hall to play their uprights (which I'd avoided in favor of their grands whenever I'd visited previously). There was a world of difference between what I could get out if those 'hybrids' and the real pianos - even the smallest verticals. The 'hybrids' don't even come anywhere close to responding to one's touch like any of the acoustics.

When all is said and done, I have to agree with Artur Pizarro - he loves his AG for technical work, including working out fingerings in new pieces, and ironing out technical problems in tricky passages with endless repetitions without worrying about annoying anybody. (You don't need a real piano for that, and practising hard octaves and chords endlessly will keep your piano technician/tuner in regular employment.) Not for serious interpretative stuff or perfecting your tone. In other words, 'hybrids' are ideal if you've also got an acoustic - preferably a grand - that you can also play on regularly. If you're a serious classical pianist, and have only got 'hybrids' to learn and practise on, even in your conservatoire, you're not going to get far.

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#2106207 - 06/22/13 01:07 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: irving]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1166
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Hi Irving,

Originally Posted By: irving


Nowhere in my post did I mention the word "digital"; nowhere in your response RXD do you mention the word "hybrid".


To be clear, you did not mention "digital". We, the "naysayers" used the ugly, scathing word.

Let's just be honest. These "hybrids" are digital keyboards. With a glorified action. That still does not completely or perfectly imitate the action or tonal response of a grand piano.

There! I said it. Look, it's a great marketing gimmick. And to be perfectly candid, they do look pretty. I give it a shelf life of about 10 years.

When Juilliard or Eastman calls you to replace all their practice room acoustics with hybrids, you let us know.

With every good wish,

P. S., has it occurred to you that being a dealer and offering such an opinion is a conflict of interest, and therefore a problem?


Edited by laguna_greg (06/22/13 01:08 PM)
Edit Reason: clarity
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2106213 - 06/22/13 01:11 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: bennevis]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1166
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Thank you Ben!
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2106291 - 06/22/13 03:18 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: rxd]
irving Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 705
Loc: Irvington, NY
Originally Posted By: rxd


Is Quietime an example of the type of hybrid you are refering to?




RXD,

Not at all. Quietime simply mutes the strings of an acoustic piano and replaces the sound of the strings with a synthesized sound that can be heard through headphones. It's an add-on to an acoustic piano; it doesn't transform the piano into a hybrid piano. A hybrid piano has no strings, no pinblock, and no dampers. But it has a high-end grand piano action - even the N1 and N2 models that look like uprights. The sound can be heard through headphones, but it can also be heard through very-high-end speakers.

The clear advantage of a hybrid over a digital is the real grand piano action.

The advantages of an AvantGrand hybrid over an acoustic upright are: grand action rather than upright action; never needs to be tuned; is much less affected by typically poor conservatory-type environments; can be used with headphones when bothering others or being bothered by others is an issue.

There's no argument that a student who's aiming for a performing career must have access to high-end acoustic pianos. His or her piano needs will not be satisfied by a hybrid. But if the school's piano tech is spending a lot of his or her time maintaining the practice room pianos that are being used for myriad purposes other than for the needs of aspiring piano soloists, then what? The aspiring pianists get to practice on good (even great) acoustic pianos that often feel and sound terrible.
_________________________
Irving
Faust Harrison Pianos
We sell new Bechsteins, Yamahas, Mason & Hamlins, Brodmanns and W. Hoffmanns, and rebuilt vintage Steinways. All rebuilding is done in our own factory. www.faustharrisonpianos.com

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#2106305 - 06/22/13 03:38 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: laguna_greg]
irving Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 705
Loc: Irvington, NY
From: laguna_greg. Responses from Irving are in red.

Let's just be honest. These "hybrids" are digital keyboards. With a glorified action. That still does not completely or perfectly imitate the action or tonal response of a grand piano. Regarding the action, I disagree. The "glorified" actions in AvantGrand pianos are real grand piano actions that are superior to practically any upright action and also to many of the grand piano actions that are found in many practice room grands.


P. S., has it occurred to you that being a dealer and offering such an opinion is a conflict of interest, and therefore a problem? I agree that we must all be sensitive to potential conflicts of any sort. However, I don't recall offering an opinion. I was very careful to state just the facts and to make a prediction that I clearly identified as a prediction. I also wrote a very full disclosure in the text that goes well beyond the usual disclosure. I wonder: Do you make an issue about potential conflicts when my good friend Rich talks about his Cunningham pianos or when other dealers talk about the pianos that they carry?
_________________________
Irving
Faust Harrison Pianos
We sell new Bechsteins, Yamahas, Mason & Hamlins, Brodmanns and W. Hoffmanns, and rebuilt vintage Steinways. All rebuilding is done in our own factory. www.faustharrisonpianos.com

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#2106312 - 06/22/13 03:45 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: irving]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1166
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Now Irving my friend,

That's disingenuous of you to say that. You've been offering all kinds of opinions this morning. You know you have.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2106320 - 06/22/13 04:01 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: Rudy99golf]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6067
Loc: Rochester MN
Greg,

Irving has offered opinions, yes, but not in any way trying to push a sale or recommend a specific brand. The opinions of the professionals in the piano business are welcomed and usually supply some excellent insight. As long as the affiliation is listed, each member can evaluate the response accordingly.

What they are no allowed to do is say "buy this," "buy that," or "shop from my store."
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2106325 - 06/22/13 04:14 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: irving]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4389
Originally Posted By: irving
The "glorified" actions in AvantGrand pianos are real grand piano actions that are superior to practically any upright action and also to many of the grand piano actions that are found in many practice room grands.


You're giving your own opinion there, not facts. And you're practically quoting from Yamaha's advertising blurb, which isn't strictly accurate.

The AG action is a modified grand piano action. On real grands, the key weight is slightly less when the sustain pedal is depressed, because the finger pressing down the key no longer has to lift the damper up off the strings. There are no dampers in the AG action (because there are no strings to dampen), so you don't get that.
And on real grands, the keyboard shifts to one side when you press down the una corda pedal. Not so on the AG.

So, let's stick to the facts, not Yamaha's advertising.

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#2106338 - 06/22/13 04:40 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: Minnesota Marty]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1166
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Hi Marty,

You are quite right. I have no wish to stifle the opinions aired here.

However, I am more persuaded to Ben's view of the recent turn in the conversation.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2106346 - 06/22/13 04:50 PM Re: The best study vertical piano for a conservatory [Re: bennevis]
irving Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 705
Loc: Irvington, NY
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: irving
The "glorified" actions in AvantGrand pianos are real grand piano actions that are superior to practically any upright action and also to many of the grand piano actions that are found in many practice room grands.


You're giving your own opinion there, not facts. And you're practically quoting from Yamaha's advertising blurb, which isn't strictly accurate.

The AG action is a modified grand piano action. On real grands, the key weight is slightly less when the sustain pedal is depressed, because the finger pressing down the key no longer has to lift the damper up off the strings. There are no dampers in the AG action (because there are no strings to dampen), so you don't get that.
And on real grands, the keyboard shifts to one side when you press down the una corda pedal. Not so on the AG.

So, let's stick to the facts, not Yamaha's advertising.


I beg to differ. What I said was: The...actions in AvantGrand pianos are real grand piano actions (true)that are superior to practically any upright action (true) and also to many of the grand piano actions that are found in many practice room grands (true). The fine-point differences that you mention may be of some consequence to some pianists, but not at all to many others. And I notice that you don't dispute the main points that I made: that these actions are superior to practically any upright action and also to many of the grand piano actions that are found in many practice room grands.

As to your point that on real grands, the keyboard shifts to one side when you press down the una corda pedal, isn't it disingenuous that you fail to note that on "real" uprights (to which we're comparing the hybrids), the keyboards also don't shift?
_________________________
Irving
Faust Harrison Pianos
We sell new Bechsteins, Yamahas, Mason & Hamlins, Brodmanns and W. Hoffmanns, and rebuilt vintage Steinways. All rebuilding is done in our own factory. www.faustharrisonpianos.com

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