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Noam,

Coincidentally, I was thinking about you this morning, wondering if you were able to trade your unsatisfactory piano in for one you like better.

Have you been able to make progress on that situation?

Thanks for caring But I really don't want to "jack" this thread with my situation. Lets just say that i'm on hold right now waiting to hear something. If I like what I hear, I will probably be too busy playing my piano to even say anything on this forum If i'm not pleased with customer service, lets just say that I'll be making alot of noise Afterall, without a great piano to play, I have ALOT OF TIME on my hands. Races only happen on the weekends. Mon-Fri I'm bored!

It is nothing more than an observation of the difference in evaluation between the forums. One doesn't need to be a technician or a pianist to simply read comments and detect a trend.

Do let us know how it turns out in the end, at the least.

I don't agree with this. There seems to be an ongoing battle between the technicians and the players. The players have an opinion, and some technicians seems to think the pianists have to RIGHT to critique a piano because - they just play - they don't work on the pianos.

I couldn't disagree with this more.
It's like asking your car mechanic which car is best for the race track. 99% would have no clue!!! A car mechanic would recommend the Honda because it's reliable and provides alot of bang for the buck. It's easy to work on and very reliable.

But has a car mechanic ever taken a Porsche, a BMW or Ferrari to the racetrack? And even if they did, are they capable of driving those cars even 80% to their limit? Probably not. The opinion of the racecar driver matters MOST! In truly professional top tier situations, the mechanic / technician would not dare argue with the pianist or driver. I don't see the mechanics of MotoGP rider Valentino Rossi arguing with him when he doesn't like the behavior of the bike. I don't see the technician of Polini arguing that the piano is fine when Polini complains. Their job is to fix it. To make it into what the driver/pianist wants, not to argue or form an opinion.

Make the specific piano the best it can be, for the person playing it. That's the magic of a good technician. Not to form an opinion, but to make a special relationship between the piano and pianist.

I don't know how many technicians are on this forum with the mindset that us piano players don't have a clue, maybe 5%, I don't know. But it's not right.

The best technicians I've had spent more time listening to me and the piano, than making their own opinions.

Hi Thrill,

"- For the home, people buy them because they can't afford Bösendorfer or Fazioli."

I don't think that's necessarily true. Lots of people like the Steinway sound, or what they think the Steinway sound is. I know many faculty members at colleges and universities, and the majority of them prefer the Steinway sound which is why they tell their schools to buy them. My teacher in Paris had two matched Hamburg "C"s in his studio, and he wouldn't have anything else and said so often. And that's a guy who, at the time I was studying with him, gave 60+ concerts and did at least 3/4 recording projects a year.

noam,

I have no idea what you are disagreeing with or what you are trying to say.

Isn't a mechanic who regularly services many brands of cars able to make a comparative judgment on the quality and serviceability of the various brands? Isn't a piano technician able to make the same type of assessment?

My only statement was that there was much less S&S bashing in the tech forum.

That is my simple observation, nothing more.

The owner/pianist IS the ultimate judge of how adequate a piano they have is-and how adequately the service it is getting meets his/her needs. But technicians must have a very good sense of what pianists in general expect out of a piano. It is a two way street-communication between both parties must be based on trust and respect. I am very uncomfortable working for any pianist/owner that I sense doesn't trust me. I prefer if they tell me what they want the piano to do or not do when used in certain ways, and let me prescribe the remedy. That way I am responsible for the outcome. If a pianist tells me to do some specific adjustment or service-I often feel like just renting them my tools so they can do it.

Most pianist/owners consider their piano a long term investment. They want it to perform well for a long time and not have to spend money and downtime having it gone over frequently. Your race care analogy doesn't fit well with this. Race cars just have to get the driver over the finish line first! Many big time race teams have multiple cars for the race season. I don't know of any piano venues except the competition circuit and a few top tier performance halls that meet the race car analogy.

I do know that what makes a good race car mechanic is one that can explain what the possibilities in performance are, can interpret the drivers descriptions quickly, and what ways to reach these goals can be achieved given the circumstances. This is exactly what a good piano technician does. They don't necessarily need to be able to drive a race car at it's limits to understand what is going on.

100% correct. A technician will be the best former of opinion as to the quality and serviceability of a piano.

Unfortunately, this is not what the original post was asking. I interpreted the original post as a more subjective question as to which piano was best - as in sound and touch.

Maybe there are pianos out there that have amazing quality, and easy to work on, but not necessarily produce the most beautiful sound. Or is it your opinion that those are tightly coupled?

In another way or asking the same question: Is the best quality piano would produce the most beautiful sound?

In my opinion no. I think the quality of Yamaha speaks to itself. The fact that they are all identical out of the factory speaks to its quality and consistency.

Is ease of maintenance and lack of need for constant maintenance necessarily a good thing?

Ducati motorcycles need a valve adjustment every 5,000 miles. Is that due to bad quality workmanship or the fact that the engine is so high performance that it needs constant tuning and attention?

A piano is a luxury item of passion. Ferrari's need a timing belt every 20,000 miles. A honda - every 100,000 miles. So which is better? Well, if cars are your passion, the Ferrari of course.

I don't know much about the mechanics of a piano, but most top end luxury items require alot of maintenance to keep them in optimum condition. There seems to be a correlation between reliability and beauty. The more beautiful, and more passionate, the more maintenance and less practical. Sounds like some women I know hahahaha

noam,

For some unknown reason, you are trying to divine some hidden meaning from my simple statement.

My opinions of S&S were addressed early in this thread.

You might also read my signature line.

Noam:

You are obviously very passionate and knowledgeable about cars. And if I were shopping for a new car, you would be on my list of advisers. But with pianos ......

You alluded, in an earlier post, to a child being indoctrinated (or not) to the taste of carrots, claiming that one who has not eaten many carrots would not aquire a taste for them. Well, having eaten many a Tsimmes (carrots ala Jewish mother) in my time, the over-exposure can (in my case) also have the opposite effect, where I try to avoid them. Now, if one had only carrots to eat, imagine the palate awakening when introduced to a Beet, or roasted Fennel!!

A similar response can be expected when those proclaiming one brand of piano to be the exalted grand-poobah, are introduced to pianos absolutely equal in build quality, but having a different approach. In my shop, we are fortunate to retail several top quality pianos, each with impeccable build quality and each with their own sense of what good tone and response should be like. One cannot say that any of these is "better" than the other, they are just different.

IMHO, I cannot say the same about the American Steinways I have seen in recent years. However, I would say that, IMHO, the Hamburg Steinway is of comparable build quality to the top pianos I represent. However, my opinions are formed by tuning the instruments and making the comparisons based on my own ears, fingers and playing experience, coupled with the time I have spent tuning, voicing and regulating these pianos and many Hamburg and American Steinways.

So, you have formed your opinions based on you experience selecting your American D, and having recently played 5 Hamburg D's. Have you played or heard 5 Sauters, Grotrians, Bosendorfers, Bluthners, Steingraebers or Bechsteins? I would bet not.

AND, I would bet that MOST (certainly not ALL) who pro-port the big S as the be-all catch-all of the piano world have not had the opportunity to experience other instruments of similar build quality.

You are right about advertising and marketing. S&S has done a very good (some would say dictatorial) job of excluding comparable brands from visibility in the USA. As a piano dealer, it is often frustrating and difficult to work with clients who have a mindset based on nothing more than myth. Yet, when given the opportunity to compare - side by side - with other brands consumers often (luckily) come to agree that, amongst equals, there are certainly more choices than one - even some that don't start with an "S", and two others that do!!

Sort of along the theme of indoctrination, my piano tech tells me that my Mason & Hamlin sat for sale for quite awhile before I bought it. And it's not that people weren't impressed when they played it. The were impressed. And what surprised them the most that a piano other than a Steinway could sound so well. But, time and time again my piano was passed over all because it didn't have the "correct" name on the fallboard. It's this that I think is a bit of a shame. Any individual piano should stand on its own right regardless of make. A good piano is a good piano!!! But, their loss was my gain!!!

Hi Dyna,

Thank goodness you know, and can hear, the difference.

There is a suggestion in another thread in this forum (not the technician's as first stated - edit) that a Model O may lose its crown and downbearing if allowed to stand unplayed in Europe for 40 years. Would one of the world's finest pianos do that?

Yes - It can happen to any brand, not just Steinway.

I am convinced that there is more fraud than fact when people talk about loss of crown and downbearing.

My opinion is that Steinway is a remnant of a past era in piano building. While they were better than their competitors in the early 20th century (Lester, Chickering, Knabe, Mason and Hamlin, Chas. Stieff, Steinert, Vose, etc.), Steinway had the luck to survive the Depression and avoided getting taken over by Aeolian or AMPICO, which allowed them to keep on going as usual long after the other brands had died out. They are the ol' reliable of pianos, and this makes them desirable compared to the ever-improving Asian pianos or stodgy and/or obscure west-European pianos.

That being said, they are definitely one of the best. They just feel good to play when well prepped, and they always put a big dumb grin on my face (a hard feat, I assure you). I'm 90% it's just a placebo or an ego boost from playing "the best", but they are still amazing pianos.

It's also a shame that people ignore fine pianos like Mason and Hamlin or Petrof or Yamaha just because they're not Steinways. Steinways sell fairly well for their price-range, while [US] Baldwins, Bechsteins, Mason & Hamlins, and other high-end pianos just sit on the floor 'til they're marked down ridiculously low and maybe snatched up after more haggling. For example, I saw a late US Baldwin player grand in the front of a store that was marked from $40K+ down to $25K because it just wouldn't sell. Had it been a Steinway, I'm sure it would've flown out the door years ago.

I think you have many factual errors here.

In the early part of the 20th century, I don't think there is any factual basis for saying Steinway was better than Mason Hamlin and possibly some other makers you mentioned like Chickering.

I don't think Steinway and many other makers wee ever in danger being taken over by Aeolian.

Steinway sales and production have decreased quite dramatically in recent years so saying they sell fairly well is not so accurate. They certainly don't "fly out the door". It is true that the Steinway flagship store in Manhattan is apparently moving to another location.

Yamaha sells far more pianos than Steinway by probably more than a factor of 20. It is not true that Mason or the other brands you mentioned are marked down "ridiculously low" before getting sold. If this was the case, dealers wouldn't carry them. It is true that Steinways sell at a greater profit margin than other pianos.

I had a D274 at my school, it was certainly awful, maybe due to lack of maintenance.

Well, they were on the same level as Steinway, but it's honestly just apples-to-apples there.

Steinway did have business with Aeolian during the '20s when Aeolian installed Duo-Art players into Steinways and other brands (Stroud, Weber, Steck, etc.), most of which were eventually absorbed into Aeolian-American. I guess I wasn't clear on that last point. While Yamahas do sell more than Steinway, Steinway generally outsells Mason & Hamlin, Bechstein, Chas. Walter, and/or Fazioli. And I have seen with my own two eyes high-end pianos sitting on dealer floors for years and getting marked down considerably before any sale takes place. I was wrong on those other points, however.