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Hmn, something doesn't seem to fit then. Steingraebers aren't cheap pianos and I see no reason as to why they should be so much cheaper in the UK than the US.

I think quite possibly that the price list I had for the B-192 at £37,499 was for the Phoenix-Steingraeber pianos. Or quite possibly just Hurstwood Farm's Phoenix brand.

I'll email during the week and find out how much a Steingraeber & Söhne will cost - with no Phoenix involved!

I'll let you know soon.

People forget how expensive it is to import these pianos to this continent.

Most of these high end pianos are flown in, not shipped by vessel.

We have 2 Sauter grands coming right now, both by air:
total transportation & duties coming to almost $ 5000 each.

Norbert

Wow, Norbert - I had no idea these were shipped via air cargo regularly! I learned something new today...

Out of curiosity, in the airplane, do they control the temperature of the cabin where the piano is stored? At 40,000 cruising altitude, it's VERY VERY cold. Colder than putting your piano in Antarctica for 10 hours out in the elements.

Hmn, that's a thought. Do you think air travel could be quite damaging for a piano?

If I knew I was having an expensive piano (such as a Steingraeber!) shipped over via air-cargo I'd like to think the cabin's climate would be controlled to minimise the risk of damage to my piano.

Pets are also transported in the cargo hold. Do they arrive frozen?

You are very smart and clever. You must be proud of yourself.

Anyway - there are two types of cargo planes. Pressurized and temp controlled cargo, for cats and dogs etc... and stuff that doesn't need it.

My question is, what do they do with pianos? Do they usually spend the extra $$$ or cut corners and send the cheaper "colder" route?

We have been importing pianos from Europe for over 30 years, and always use air freight to ship the instruments. This is far less stressful on the piano than a nice ocean voyage... maybe because they don't get the "midnight Buffet" on a plane ride

As Norbert indicated, it's not a cheap means of transportation, and no, they don't get frequent flyer miles. With Sauter's, not only do they arrive perfectly, but also they mostly arrive in tune and ready to play. The crates are insulated and very sturdy. Amazing. While the crates are somewhat over-the-top, I have seen many used by Homeless a few blocks from the shop as new residences.

Consumers often fail to realize that there is duty (6%) and freight (airfreight, customs clearance charges, freight charges to store, uncrating) to add to the Euro price of the instruments, plus dealer prep. I know for a fact that PianoBuyer does factor most of these things in when calculating retail price, and is one reason why these instruments are not heavily discounted becuase dealers don't make any profit on freight charges - just pure cost. But, for instruments the caliber of Grotrian, Bosendorfer, Sauter, Steingraeber etc. the actual costs and benefit of less stressful cartage add up to a reasonable sum considering the over-all financial outlay.

Those that come by ship, such as Estonia, Petrof, W.Hoffmann, or Asian products, have far less cost associated with getting them here and those costs are more commensurate with their retail selling price. Airfreight on those products would be an outrageous percentage when calculated against their selling price.

Thank you master88er for your valuable contribution. I'm sure I can speak on behalf of the others that it's helped cleared things up.

It may also help discover why the prices I have for the Steingraebers are so much cheaper here in the UK than in the US as the shipping costs will be a lot less.

Once again, thank you!

The clue is in the dealer's name: Hurstwood Farm. The "farm" part isn't just there for the heck of it... it's really a farm! They're located well outside of London, in the countryside. Very pretty (see below). The pianos are housed in an old barn, which has been converted into the showroom. As a result, they have very low overhead.

I've played some of the Steingraeber-Phoenix models before carbon fiber was used. It is my opinion that the difference between the two is subtle. For someone who isn't familiar with the Steingraeber sound, and hasn't played the different generations of Phoenix instruments, I think it is likely they wouldn't be able to tell the difference. However, I am confident that I could identify the ones with carbon fiber boards in a blind test.

Which therefore is why the prices I have are so low?

Well, yeah... I mean, Dain's family has owned that farm for, like, over 50 years, so it's paid for. Further still, it's a huge nut farm (not unlike PianoWorld haha); they grow hazelnuts there, which rakes in a lot of revenue, I'm sure. In addition, they're licensing the Phoenix system to Steingraeber, as well as a few other companies, and will soon be available for technicians to retrofit into their customers' pianos. And, Dain is a retired engineer. This is a passion for the Hurstwood team.

Contrast this with Steinway Hall, or whomever, situated in London. Expensive real estate, with high property taxes, and lots of staff. Or if you're Stateside, factor in all that, plus expensive freight and import charges.

Recommend to visit "Udo's room" at factory and try your luck there.

Guaranteed to get free dinner after - if right.

Insider tip: guy seems to like saving money...

Norbert

Does anyone know if there is a European equivalent of "A&D Piano Buyer?" We seem to be in dire need of a published resource.

I've been there on two different occasions (actually had dinner, too), but that doesn't mean I would object to going again.

If you mean pricing try this http://www.bolpianos.nl/catalogsearch/result/?q=steingraeber

Wow, thanks for all the help and input everyone - greatly appreciated.

Especially beethoven986 for the in-depth and detailed response!

I'm now going to email Hurstwood Farm and ask what their prices are on the traditional Steingraeber & Söhne models in comparison to the Phoenix-Steingraeber model price list I have here with me. Who knows, they could be the same, there could be a £10,000 difference?

I'll keep you posted!

Interestingly, after all this talk about Hurstwood Farms, I visited their website and found them to be quite inconsistent in their "philosophy" of, what they prefer to call piano "renovation". Here is a quote from one section describing their "renovation" work:



Yet, if you look at their "used pianos" section, they are selling a "fully restored" Challen, ($13,260.00), Broadwood, ($13,962.00) and Ronisch, ($37,440.00). Apparently, these "lesser" brands ARE worth "renovating".

Hmn yes, I have to say. It's a rather hypocritical thing for them to say if you think about. Of course, I mean this in no rude disrespect.

However, if you're going to say something, at least stick by what you say - for Hurstwood Farm, this isn't the case.

This then leads to the thought of maybe they haven't 'renovated' the Challen, Broadwood and Ronisch to their specification of 'renovate'? These pianos could have been just a quick job of tidying the action, replacing the strings and polishing the case? We all fully well know that that isn't a full piano renovation.