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#2106703 - 06/23/13 12:03 PM some specific cleaning questions
berninicaco3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/14/13
Posts: 103
Loc: iowa city, ia
I've tried to find some of this information on the internet and in a couple books, but it's hard to find anything really specific! I did find out about erasers and glycerin for the ivory, and that worked well. But leaves much left.

I'm trying to *really* clean out this 1936 piano I have.

the poor iphone photo below shows some of the spots of rust on the sound plate, and the rusty condition of the tuning pins. Those particular pins (the bass) are being replaced, but the rest of the piano I will not be restringing...

I've written too much below, but in short:
a) ANY cleaner safe for soundboard?
b) small, fine wire cup wheel on angle grinder safe for cleaning tops of pins and any accessible sound plate rust? miniature dremel wire wheel for getting under and in between
c) good cleaner to break down rust on harp/plate?
d) good gentler cleaner just for wiping down the rest of the plate
e) safe cleaner for wiping everything wood: top of dampers, case, maybe even soundboard.



I've already read about cleaning the soundboard-- vacuum first, then reverse and blow the remaining dust out best as I can, then either buy a special tool or just use a stick to push a microfiber cloth around to mop up the rest.
No cleaning agents whatsoever on the soundboard, correct?

Now.. the tuning pins are rusty, and the paint on the plate around the screws has peeled and rusted. The entire bass section will be getting new strings, and new tuning pins, and I have a photo of that section showing the worst.
However, for the rest of the piano, I'd prefer to polish up the existing tuning pins.
I tried a small wire brush around the one screw hole, and am getting no where particularly fast.
I'm considering a small, fine cup wire wheel (say 1" diameter) on a right angle drill and proceeding carefully. This will at least get the tops of those pins I'm not replacing. I don't know if it is at serious risk of breaking strings: no doubt, the high grade strings are significantly harder steel than the wire that goes into a wire wheel, so I'm thinking not.

I'd also like to know if there are cleaning agents that are safe to use, to help break down the rust; and other agents that are save to simply wipe down the rest of the soundplate for a fresher look.

Finally, I'll try to find a matching gold paint but I suspect I'll fail, and my repainted patches will stick out like the botched application of a car scratch repair kit.
In that case, I might leave the freshly revealed iron as iron, and use past wax to keep it from rusting again. I would likewise use paste wax to seal the freshly polished tuning pins (those I am keeping, in any event-- not the bass section). Is there an unforeseen problem with this?

Finally, just what to use to clean the case. It's a satin sheen over the wood (not black lacquer), 'crazing' in some portions where there would have been more sun exposure. Tried a sample where the finish was damaged already, and isopropyl alcohol does soften it/ makes the very surface sticky. Didn't readily strip it though. Still not answered if it's nitrocellulose or spirit (french polish) varnish. To confound matters, some nitrocellulose finishes are partially solvent in alcohol anyway, I just learned!





Edited by berninicaco3 (06/23/13 12:06 PM)

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#2106736 - 06/23/13 01:08 PM Re: some specific cleaning questions [Re: berninicaco3]
Jbyron Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 482
Loc: USA
I think a re-build is in order, forget the cleaning.
_________________________
Tuner-Technician



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#2106738 - 06/23/13 01:12 PM Re: some specific cleaning questions [Re: berninicaco3]
Adypiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/02/12
Posts: 40
Loc: Surrey, UK
I'm rather inclined to agree with Jbyron...
_________________________
Started work at the Blüthner piano re-building workshop in Perivale, UK, in 1989. Self employed since 2000. Learning something new about pianos every day... smile

http://www.hamiltonpianos.com/

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#2106743 - 06/23/13 01:22 PM Re: some specific cleaning questions [Re: berninicaco3]
phacke Online   content

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 398
Loc: CO, USA
Hello,

Gojo (original, without pumas) hand cleaner, used sparingly, cleans such old plate and lacquered surfaces. This is learned from the old veneer radio restoration field. I personally would not go so far as to apply this to a good soundboard, however.

Sheffield paint makes the particles for the gold pigments to mix with your own lacquer solution to get the color you want. Their mixed paints are xylene based, which is too strong to apply on old lacquer for touch ups. Some piano companies sell plate paint too.

"Amalgamator" type products exist to deal with the crazing, no personal experience with that though.

Your sure got "a project"

Best regards -


Edited by phacke (06/23/13 01:27 PM)
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin

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#2106756 - 06/23/13 01:37 PM Re: some specific cleaning questions [Re: berninicaco3]
Zeno Wood Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 427
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Use a dust mask, gloves probably a good idea too.
_________________________
Zeno Wood, Piano Technician
Brooklyn College

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#2106770 - 06/23/13 01:58 PM Re: some specific cleaning questions [Re: berninicaco3]
berninicaco3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/14/13
Posts: 103
Loc: iowa city, ia
Thanks! I'm familiar with gojo. I'll get some.

Interesting thought; I'll look into sheffield. I have some gold lacquer, but I'm pretty certain it isn't a match.

Think a wire cup wheel will do a decent amount of cleaning?

The reason I'm not doing a full restoration is
a) cost. I don't have much more than $1000
b) justified cost. this piano will never be worth more than a restoration will cost.
c) not strictly necessary. I had a technician I found from PTG come and look at it. Sure, it looks gross. But if it doesn't need bridge, pinblock, or soundboard repairs (and it doesn't); I'd just be removing all the strings basically for looks! It doesn't need to look great; it just needs to be playable and not sound awful. That said, I want to do the best I can without removing all of the strings.
Unless, since I'm already replacing the bass strings... going after the treble strings won't be too much more money (200-300$ in parts?)...? And there'd be reason to do so?
Without the strings, it will be much easier to clean all the rust, and I'd feel better with all new pins.
On the other hand, it is already up to pitch believe it or not, and I don't want to 'fix what aint broke,' just causing more problems than I solve.

Full restoration can probably happen when I've got another reason to pull off all the strings, and another part that needs repair (bridge, pinblock); and the means to see it through.

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#2106771 - 06/23/13 01:59 PM Re: some specific cleaning questions [Re: berninicaco3]
Eric Gloo Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1189
Loc: Richfield Springs, New York
Search online for Travis Tuning Pin and Coil Cleaner. It comes with a steel cylinder into which you insert a rubber bushing. The steel cylinder is attached to your electric drill. A small amount of the cleaning compound (a thin, paste-like consistency) is placed on top of a tuning pin, then you work the rubber bushing up and down the tuning pin. It is not very expensive, but you might want to order extra rubber bushings, just in case. You can use one bushing on more than one tuning pin. They will disintegrate and will be all over the plate in the tuning pin area. The cleaning compound will also be a bit messy...but after you've cleaned the tuning pins and coils, let everything dry for a little while, and the compound will harden somewhat, making it easier to vacuum things up. You can use the vacuum, a long-bristled paint brush, clean cloth and some type of thin, pointy tool to dislodge any little rubber pieces after you've cleaned the pins. Don't use anything to seal the tuning pins. The tuning pin cleaner will be enough. I've never had the tuning pins rust again after doing this procedure. You also don't want to risk getting anything down into the pin block.

As for cleaning the strings, you can also search online for Polita Steel Polish, and an accompanying handle. It's a type of eraser tool that works well.

With some luck, you'll have much less string breakage if you can get as much rust off as possible. However, by looking at the photos, I'm guessing more strings will break, even after cleaning. Good luck!
_________________________
Eric Gloo
Piano Technician
Certified Dampp-Chaser Installer
Richfield Springs, New York

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#2106777 - 06/23/13 02:09 PM Re: some specific cleaning questions [Re: berninicaco3]
berninicaco3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/14/13
Posts: 103
Loc: iowa city, ia
awesome! I think that is just what I'm looking for.
I went ahead and just ordered the kit: comes with cleaner, and 24 of the bushings. There are... around 200 pins? Will I want more than 24 bushings? (not too late to add to the order). Or even just 2 kits-- which is $40, but, not that bad really.

Yeah, some of the bass strings could break. I have no idea why the bass section is so much rustier than the rest of the piano. I'm replacing all of them... actually, so I won't clean the pins, but I want to clean the plate there.
However, I'll be cleaning the plate with the strings still in place, because I have been advised to leave the tension on and just replace the strings one at a time once the new ones arrive-- rather than de-tensioning the entire bass section by removing all of them at once.

Oh-- for the finish. IF I can actually 'melt together' or other wise fill in the crazing, awesome! I wasn't expecting that that would be possible... that only stripping, sanding, and refinishing would fix what I want to fix.
I'm still trying to figure out what finish I have, though.

What is the proper name... the portion that rests front and top, and includes the music stand. That portion is in the worst way, the rest of the piano really still has an intact if flawed varnish. I intend to just strip and refinish only the music stand part, using lamp black or black aniline dye in moderation to darken it, as needed-- start with some clear coats and if they're too light, then darken with the last coat or two. But, I don't want to strip the whole piano, not just yet. Maybe some other small surfaces or the bench.


Edited by berninicaco3 (06/23/13 02:29 PM)

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#2106784 - 06/23/13 02:16 PM Re: some specific cleaning questions [Re: berninicaco3]
Eric Gloo Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1189
Loc: Richfield Springs, New York
Originally Posted By: berninicaco3
There are... around 200 pins? Will I want more than 24 bushings? (not too late to add to the order). Or even just 2 kits-- which is $40, but, not that bad really


In my experience, not all the rubber bushings are the same diameter. Some are just a bit too small for the cylinder, so that when you try to clean the tuning pin, the bushing sits still while the cylinder spins around it...instead of the cylinder and bushing acting as one. You won't need 2 complete kits. You will, most likely, have cleaning compound left over.

When encountering a piano with a lot of rust, my favorite part of the cleaning is cleaning the tuning pins and coils. You see results immediately. smile


Edited by Eric Gloo (06/23/13 02:19 PM)
_________________________
Eric Gloo
Piano Technician
Certified Dampp-Chaser Installer
Richfield Springs, New York

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#2106991 - 06/23/13 10:45 PM Re: some specific cleaning questions [Re: berninicaco3]
Gary Fowler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 372
By the look of the missing bass strings, I assume you are going to bebuild this thing anyway. It does appear to be a pretty cheap piano, but you can gain a whole lot experience by rebuilding it.
_________________________
Making the world a better sounding place, one piano at a time...

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#2106992 - 06/23/13 10:49 PM Re: some specific cleaning questions [Re: berninicaco3]
Gary Fowler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 372
Honestly, I would cut my losses on this piano.(unless you are a serious student)
_________________________
Making the world a better sounding place, one piano at a time...

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#2107406 - 06/24/13 07:12 PM Re: some specific cleaning questions [Re: berninicaco3]
berninicaco3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/14/13
Posts: 103
Loc: iowa city, ia
Hmm....

Question for you guys.

Should I go ahead and replace ALL the strings, not just the bass strings?

PROS:

technician just advised to replace all damper felts. So if all damper are already coming off anyway and all the work that that entails, something that new strings would require (2 birds)...

travis tuning pin kit + many extra bushings + shipping can run $50 anyway. Money that can just go to shiny new pins instead.

certainly makes scrubbing down and touching up the plate enamel and polishing aggraffes a helluva lot easier!
and dusting the soundboard.
Not that cleaning in and of itself is any justification for restringing a piano!

new bass strings going on anyway. Will all new strings sound better? Are 80 yr old strings necessarily bad?


CONS.

Even if I don't spend the $50 on a travis tuning pin cleaning kit, no doubt, all of that additional wire and 150 more tuning pins is more $.

Right now the piano is at pitch, stable, and the pins are happily wedged in there. Is there a chance that in uprooting all of those tuning pins, that the new ones actually don't hold as well as the originals? That I end up with a less stable piano/ create more problems for myself in disturbing all those presently-happy tuning pins?




ALL new strings, or just the bass + the 3 (6) snapped strings only in the upper registers? what is your advice?

If I do all new strings, I presume, new felts. *maybe* new aggraffes? I saw the thread about old steinway aggraffes breaking. None of my aggraffes are presently cracked, so I'm thinking I'd be best just leaving them alone.
Any other good maintenance practices to replace?

Kinda like cars. If you're doing a transmission rebuild, might as well rebuild the valve body and replace the torque converter, and might as well do the transmission mounts while you're in there... but pretty soon the optional 'just because/ just in case' repairs snowball and you've spent $400 more than you strictly had to, and maybe you don't notice any difference at all for that money. Only the clutches were ever actually broken. Then again, maybe some of these things are worth doing. It can be hard to say.

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#2107424 - 06/24/13 07:39 PM Re: some specific cleaning questions [Re: berninicaco3]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20779
Loc: Oakland
Yes, replace all the strings if you are planning on making this a usable piano. A lot more of them are bound to break if you try tuning it.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2107428 - 06/24/13 07:54 PM Re: some specific cleaning questions [Re: berninicaco3]
Eric Gloo Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1189
Loc: Richfield Springs, New York
Originally Posted By: berninicaco3
Is there a chance that in uprooting all of those tuning pins, that the new ones actually don't hold as well as the originals?


If it's not done correctly, yes.

Quote:
That I end up with a less stable piano/ create more problems for myself in disturbing all those presently-happy tuning pins?


It appears the happiness left those tuning pins and strings long ago. smile
_________________________
Eric Gloo
Piano Technician
Certified Dampp-Chaser Installer
Richfield Springs, New York

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#2107455 - 06/24/13 09:06 PM Re: some specific cleaning questions [Re: berninicaco3]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3789
I couldn't fix this piano for your $1000 budget. I doubt if you can, either. It needs a full rebuild. Moisture damage to that extent likely makes rebuilding impossible.
_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






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#2107486 - 06/24/13 09:56 PM Re: some specific cleaning questions [Re: berninicaco3]
Jbyron Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 482
Loc: USA
Something else to consider. If you replace the strings, who's going to give the piano the twenty tunings it will need before it can be even close to stable?
_________________________
Tuner-Technician



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#2107487 - 06/24/13 09:58 PM Re: some specific cleaning questions [Re: berninicaco3]
Zeno Wood Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 427
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Don't forget safety glasses. And maybe a tetanus shot.
_________________________
Zeno Wood, Piano Technician
Brooklyn College

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#2107491 - 06/24/13 10:08 PM Re: some specific cleaning questions [Re: berninicaco3]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20779
Loc: Oakland
Yes, parts alone should cost at least $1000.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2107710 - 06/25/13 09:42 AM Re: some specific cleaning questions [Re: Bob]
James Carney Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 401
Loc: new york city
Originally Posted By: Bob
I couldn't fix this piano for your $1000 budget. I doubt if you can, either. It needs a full rebuild. Moisture damage to that extent likely makes rebuilding impossible.


+1

It looks like a substantial amount of water damage has occurred. High probability that there is no crown and negative downbearing in the soundboard, so if you remove the strings the board might oilcan. Even if it doesn't I would bet the action is hopeless too, unless you want to spend many thousands.

Once that kind of moisture damage occurs its almost always never going to be a viable candidate. I would scrap it and find something else to cut your teeth on.

If you must forge ahead, take Zeno's advice about getting a tetanus shot.
_________________________
Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/

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#2107787 - 06/25/13 12:32 PM Re: some specific cleaning questions [Re: berninicaco3]
berninicaco3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/14/13
Posts: 103
Loc: iowa city, ia
As far as I can judge, it's just humidity damage. It's really very odd that it would be so rusty; but then, I'm used to some nickel or chromium in most of the steel objects in my modern life. If it's straight up carbon steel, I guess I can see it. When I was into machining for one summer on campus, I did notice that the plain carbon alloys could rust shockingly quickly just from summer humidity alone. Most steel items in our lives are at least galvanized; but raw carbon steel can turn orange in a week.

From the good condition of all the wooden parts, it did not see direct water exposure (flood, or spilled drinks, or outdoor storage-- I hope the latter never ever occurs, but I can't imagine that many things leading to water exposure).

All the wood looks great-- it was never exposed to liquid water, I can judge. The two technicians who saw it in person did not tell me to junk it.

But it's still a judgement call to decide how far to take this.

I've got on the one hand the fact that the pins are stable, and the upper registers aren't 1/10 as rusty as the bass (not as likely to break-- and already still up to pitch, so it's not like they'll see a lot more tension once tuned).
Maybe going to replace all the strings opens a can of worms and creates more problems than it solves.
So maybe just practice the 'keep it simple' principle.

On the other hand... maybe it will sound genuinely better. Maybe I'll learn something.
Just appearance wise, I can go ahead and replace all the pins, and really clean the plate. If I want to take it further, I could look into unbolting the plate, taking it outside, and re-lacquering it to really look much better.


Edited by berninicaco3 (06/25/13 12:36 PM)

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#2107803 - 06/25/13 01:08 PM Re: some specific cleaning questions [Re: berninicaco3]
Eric Gloo Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1189
Loc: Richfield Springs, New York
In my area, central New York State, I see rust similar to the rust on your piano only after a piano has lived in an unheated environment for a long time...mostly summer homes, summer camps, camps in the Adirondack Mountains, or even an unheated garage. The moisture collects during the winter, and you'll actually find the pitch is quite sharp in the winter because of it. Do you know where the piano has been its whole life? I have worked on some of these pianos after they have been brought into a normal "heat in the winter" environment...and the pianos dry up and just about fall apart.
_________________________
Eric Gloo
Piano Technician
Certified Dampp-Chaser Installer
Richfield Springs, New York

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#2108364 - 06/26/13 12:34 PM Re: some specific cleaning questions [Re: berninicaco3]
berninicaco3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/14/13
Posts: 103
Loc: iowa city, ia
It was in an older home in the country.
However, for at least a substantial period of time (the last 10+ years?), this home has had central heat and central air.
Could be that the rust simply began in the period of time before it was in a climate controlled house: as it likely was in 1936 I'm sure.

I've decided to restring this piano. The tuner is not giving me any breaks on labor, however, he's willing to give me a 30 minute, $40 lesson in restringing; and so based on getting the first few pins right with his guidance I'll carry on and restring the entire piano, then maybe call him again to check my work.

Should I go ahead and remove the plate, walk it outside, lay it on a million newspapers, and wire brush and pressure wash it clean, then follow up with 5 cans of metallic spray paint and 3 more cans of gloss lacquer?
Or do I run risks of never quite installing it in the same spot again, after it's been pulled out.

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#2108393 - 06/26/13 01:16 PM Re: some specific cleaning questions [Re: berninicaco3]
berninicaco3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/14/13
Posts: 103
Loc: iowa city, ia
by the way, how much do you charge for restringing?
Guess I need to find out exactly what the wire will cost. Schaff should get my pattern today or tomorrow.
But I've heard figures of $400 for bass strings, and $200 for treble wire, and $100 for tuning pins. Which puts me at $700 in parts.
It might take several tunings, which could add up to $300. So I'm at $1000 right there if I do most of the labor myself (installing the strings).

And yet, I saw on the internet that "restringing a grand could cost $1000"
Does that mean it could actually be cheaper just to hire someone to do all the work, and not do any of the stringing myself?

Otoh, I also saw that someone replaced more and longer strings for $400 installed just 5 yrs ago (with labor + tuning). It might be that the cost of the strings themselves is less than I'm figuring.


Edited by berninicaco3 (06/26/13 01:39 PM)

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#2108537 - 06/26/13 04:33 PM Re: some specific cleaning questions [Re: berninicaco3]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
It might cost you that much for the strings, because you will be buying in small quantities. At technician's quantities, treble strings don't cost very much.
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