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#2106865 - 06/23/13 05:10 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: Keith D Kerman]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3462
Originally Posted By: Keith D Kerman
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
Personally, I prefer the sound of the wood soundboard. However, there are many here who disagree with me on that, so it really is a matter of taste.


In a recent comparison involving some 12 odd grands at Steingraeber factory, I wasn't able to spot which is which.



I have to say I find that quite surprising based on my experience being completely opposite and finding the 2 types of boards to sound radically different. If I could think of a stronger adverb I would use it.
On second thought, since the carbon fiber boards also had the pheonix bridges, I can't say that I have really compared apples to apples with carbon boards to wood boards and everything else the same.


I've played some of the Steingraeber-Phoenix models before carbon fiber was used. It is my opinion that the difference between the two is subtle. For someone who isn't familiar with the Steingraeber sound, and hasn't played the different generations of Phoenix instruments, I think it is likely they wouldn't be able to tell the difference. However, I am confident that I could identify the ones with carbon fiber boards in a blind test.
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#2106868 - 06/23/13 05:15 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: beethoven986]
williambonard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/11
Posts: 132
Loc: Sevenoaks, UK
Which therefore is why the prices I have are so low?
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#2106882 - 06/23/13 06:19 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3462
Originally Posted By: williambonard
Which therefore is why the prices I have are so low?


Well, yeah... I mean, Dain's family has owned that farm for, like, over 50 years, so it's paid for. Further still, it's a huge nut farm (not unlike PianoWorld haha); they grow hazelnuts there, which rakes in a lot of revenue, I'm sure. In addition, they're licensing the Phoenix system to Steingraeber, as well as a few other companies, and will soon be available for technicians to retrofit into their customers' pianos. And, Dain is a retired engineer. This is a passion for the Hurstwood team.

Contrast this with Steinway Hall, or whomever, situated in London. Expensive real estate, with high property taxes, and lots of staff. Or if you're Stateside, factor in all that, plus expensive freight and import charges.
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#2106980 - 06/23/13 10:24 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14658
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
However, I am confident that I could identify the ones with carbon fiber boards in a blind test.


Recommend to visit "Udo's room" at factory and try your luck there.

Guaranteed to get free dinner after - if right.

Insider tip: guy seems to like saving money...

Norbert laugh


Edited by Norbert (06/23/13 10:25 PM)
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#2106981 - 06/23/13 10:27 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Does anyone know if there is a European equivalent of "A&D Piano Buyer?" We seem to be in dire need of a published resource.
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It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2106987 - 06/23/13 10:38 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: Norbert]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3462
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
However, I am confident that I could identify the ones with carbon fiber boards in a blind test.


Recommend to visit "Udo's room" at factory and try your luck there.

Guaranteed to get free dinner after - if right.

Insider tip: guy seems to like saving money...

Norbert laugh


I've been there on two different occasions (actually had dinner, too), but that doesn't mean I would object to going again. smile
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#2107031 - 06/24/13 02:21 AM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2271
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Does anyone know if there is a European equivalent of "A&D Piano Buyer?" We seem to be in dire need of a published resource.

If you mean pricing try this http://www.bolpianos.nl/catalogsearch/result/?q=steingraeber
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Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
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#2107051 - 06/24/13 04:38 AM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
williambonard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/11
Posts: 132
Loc: Sevenoaks, UK
Wow, thanks for all the help and input everyone - greatly appreciated.

Especially beethoven986 for the in-depth and detailed response!

I'm now going to email Hurstwood Farm and ask what their prices are on the traditional Steingraeber & Söhne models in comparison to the Phoenix-Steingraeber model price list I have here with me. Who knows, they could be the same, there could be a £10,000 difference?

I'll keep you posted!
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#2107091 - 06/24/13 07:27 AM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
Interestingly, after all this talk about Hurstwood Farms, I visited their website and found them to be quite inconsistent in their "philosophy" of, what they prefer to call piano "renovation". Here is a quote from one section describing their "renovation" work:

Quote:
Generally it is only possible to justify total renovation of selected models of premier makes such as Bosendorfer (except those with Vienna action, and Model 213), Steinway models O, B, and D, some larger Bechsteins and Bluthner prior to 1940 . Most other makes and models cost more to renovate than the value of the finished instrument.


Yet, if you look at their "used pianos" section, they are selling a "fully restored" Challen, ($13,260.00), Broadwood, ($13,962.00) and Ronisch, ($37,440.00). Apparently, these "lesser" brands ARE worth "renovating".
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#2107102 - 06/24/13 08:05 AM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: CC2 and Chopin lover]
williambonard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/11
Posts: 132
Loc: Sevenoaks, UK
Hmn yes, I have to say. It's a rather hypocritical thing for them to say if you think about. Of course, I mean this in no rude disrespect.

However, if you're going to say something, at least stick by what you say - for Hurstwood Farm, this isn't the case.

This then leads to the thought of maybe they haven't 'renovated' the Challen, Broadwood and Ronisch to their specification of 'renovate'? These pianos could have been just a quick job of tidying the action, replacing the strings and polishing the case? We all fully well know that that isn't a full piano renovation.
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#2107103 - 06/24/13 08:15 AM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
Well, if that is the case, then they are REALLY being hypocritical, based on this quote:

Quote:
Older pianos usually suffer collapse of the dome (crown) of the sound board and/ or fracture of the joints in the sound board and micro cracking of the bridge cap. To re-string a piano without attending to these matters is total waste of money. It is not uncommon to find plastic wood filler covered with a liberal layer of varnish in a cracked soundboard to disguise the fact this work has not been done.
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#2107924 - 06/25/13 04:25 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: beethoven986]
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3412
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: Keith D Kerman
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
Personally, I prefer the sound of the wood soundboard. However, there are many here who disagree with me on that, so it really is a matter of taste.


In a recent comparison involving some 12 odd grands at Steingraeber factory, I wasn't able to spot which is which.



I have to say I find that quite surprising based on my experience being completely opposite and finding the 2 types of boards to sound radically different. If I could think of a stronger adverb I would use it.
On second thought, since the carbon fiber boards also had the pheonix bridges, I can't say that I have really compared apples to apples with carbon boards to wood boards and everything else the same.


I've played some of the Steingraeber-Phoenix models before carbon fiber was used. It is my opinion that the difference between the two is subtle. For someone who isn't familiar with the Steingraeber sound, and hasn't played the different generations of Phoenix instruments, I think it is likely they wouldn't be able to tell the difference. However, I am confident that I could identify the ones with carbon fiber boards in a blind test.


I also compared the older models with wood soundboards, one with the traditional bridge and one with the pheonix bridge, and I didn't find the differences in those pianos subtle in the least.
I would be most curious to hear an A/B of 2 Steingraebers with traditional bridges, but one with a spruce board and the other with a carbon fibre board.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#2107959 - 06/25/13 04:49 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: Keith D Kerman]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3462
Originally Posted By: Keith D Kerman
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: Keith D Kerman
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
Personally, I prefer the sound of the wood soundboard. However, there are many here who disagree with me on that, so it really is a matter of taste.


In a recent comparison involving some 12 odd grands at Steingraeber factory, I wasn't able to spot which is which.



I have to say I find that quite surprising based on my experience being completely opposite and finding the 2 types of boards to sound radically different. If I could think of a stronger adverb I would use it.
On second thought, since the carbon fiber boards also had the pheonix bridges, I can't say that I have really compared apples to apples with carbon boards to wood boards and everything else the same.


I've played some of the Steingraeber-Phoenix models before carbon fiber was used. It is my opinion that the difference between the two is subtle. For someone who isn't familiar with the Steingraeber sound, and hasn't played the different generations of Phoenix instruments, I think it is likely they wouldn't be able to tell the difference. However, I am confident that I could identify the ones with carbon fiber boards in a blind test.


I also compared the older models with wood soundboards, one with the traditional bridge and one with the pheonix bridge, and I didn't find the differences in those pianos subtle in the least.
I would be most curious to hear an A/B of 2 Steingraebers with traditional bridges, but one with a spruce board and the other with a carbon fibre board.


Oh, I meant comparing a spruce soundboard Phoenix with a carbon fiber soundboard Phoenix. The difference between a spruce soundboard with traditional bridge and a spruce soundboard with Phoenix is definitely not subtle, as you say!
_________________________
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M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
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#2107978 - 06/25/13 05:14 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: beethoven986]
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3412
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: Keith D Kerman
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: Keith D Kerman
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
Personally, I prefer the sound of the wood soundboard. However, there are many here who disagree with me on that, so it really is a matter of taste.


In a recent comparison involving some 12 odd grands at Steingraeber factory, I wasn't able to spot which is which.



I have to say I find that quite surprising based on my experience being completely opposite and finding the 2 types of boards to sound radically different. If I could think of a stronger adverb I would use it.
On second thought, since the carbon fiber boards also had the pheonix bridges, I can't say that I have really compared apples to apples with carbon boards to wood boards and everything else the same.


I've played some of the Steingraeber-Phoenix models before carbon fiber was used. It is my opinion that the difference between the two is subtle. For someone who isn't familiar with the Steingraeber sound, and hasn't played the different generations of Phoenix instruments, I think it is likely they wouldn't be able to tell the difference. However, I am confident that I could identify the ones with carbon fiber boards in a blind test.


I also compared the older models with wood soundboards, one with the traditional bridge and one with the pheonix bridge, and I didn't find the differences in those pianos subtle in the least.
I would be most curious to hear an A/B of 2 Steingraebers with traditional bridges, but one with a spruce board and the other with a carbon fibre board.


Oh, I meant comparing a spruce soundboard Phoenix with a carbon fiber soundboard Phoenix. The difference between a spruce soundboard with traditional bridge and a spruce soundboard with Phoenix is definitely not subtle, as you say!


Whew........I was wondering how you could say that.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#2108035 - 06/25/13 06:44 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14658
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
deleted


Edited by Norbert (06/25/13 06:45 PM)
_________________________
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#2108155 - 06/25/13 11:26 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
One smells rat.
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S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#2108162 - 06/25/13 11:57 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: Keith D Kerman]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3462
Originally Posted By: Keith D Kerman

Whew........I was wondering how you could say that.


Haha no worries. After all, one of the main points of the Phoenix system is to sound different. As I've said before, I'm a proponent of Phoenix, but I also realize it may not be for everyone, and that's ok, too. I am looking forward to Brian Gatchell's presentation on Phoenix installation at the convention.
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M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
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#2108251 - 06/26/13 07:22 AM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
williambonard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/11
Posts: 132
Loc: Sevenoaks, UK
I emailed Hurstwood Farm Pianos on Monday like I said I would. I'm still waiting for a reply at the moment though. I'm tempted to just give them a call!

I'll let you know when I hear back from them about the prices for a 'traditional' Steingraeber and whether they're more/less expensive than the prices I was given for the Steingraeber-Phoenix models I played.

In the meantime, it's back to my Kawai!
_________________________
Venables & Son Academy-168 grand piano
Kawai K-15 E upright piano
Yamaha Clavinova CVP-208 digital piano
Aspiring concert pianist

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#2108767 - 06/26/13 10:34 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: Withindale]
Frankni Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/13
Posts: 187
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Hurstwood Phoenix
170 £34602.00
212 £38952.00
232 £44289.00




I am not an expert in Steingraebers, far from it, but I read that the Hurstwood Phoenix is a Steingraeber look-alike, but not a real Steingraeber. So my understanding is that there is Phoenix (Steingraeber inspired creation of Hurstwood), Steingraeber Phoenix (a Steingraeber with carbon fibre sound board), and Steingraeber --u Sohne. Is this a correct reflection of what happens in Kent?


Edited by Frankni (06/26/13 10:37 PM)
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Yamaha C3, Sauter Delta 185

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#2108770 - 06/26/13 10:42 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: Withindale]
Frankni Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/13
Posts: 187
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Does anyone know if there is a European equivalent of "A&D Piano Buyer?" We seem to be in dire need of a published resource.

If you mean pricing try this http://www.bolpianos.nl/catalogsearch/result/?q=steingraeber


It is a lot of fun to put a couple of great pianos in your shopping basket on that website. And then off to the checkout. Hoping your credit card has a generous limit.
_________________________
Yamaha C3, Sauter Delta 185

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#2108913 - 06/27/13 06:47 AM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: Frankni]
williambonard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/11
Posts: 132
Loc: Sevenoaks, UK
Yes, I think you're correct.

That sounds about right from what I remember. The model I played (the A-170) was a Steingraeber-Phoenix.

I'm still waiting to hear from them about the traditional Steingraeber & Söhnes.
_________________________
Venables & Son Academy-168 grand piano
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Yamaha Clavinova CVP-208 digital piano
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#2109486 - 06/28/13 06:51 AM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 849
Loc: Leicester, UK
From reading through threads about S&S I see some prefer carbon fibre, some prefer spruce, some dealers however they do it, come in with much lower floor prices, everyone knows, whether from reputation or personal experience, that an S&S is a fabulous piano but some still prefer Steinway.

For those of you have gone down the S&S road and brought one home, could you speak to what, if anything, you might have done differently during the purchases process. In other words, I'm leaning to S&S myself. Am hoping to pick up on what's been learned from experience and reflection from those who have taken delivery of the piano (meaning what if anything do you think you might have done differently while in the purchase process).

It's possible for me to visit Beyreuth ...
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#2115260 - 07/09/13 05:22 PM Re: Steingraeber & Söhne [Re: williambonard]
williambonard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/11
Posts: 132
Loc: Sevenoaks, UK
Hi all, I know it's a bit late and this thread is a bit old now and I've been meaning to put them on here, but I have the prices for some of the Steingraebers!

Initially, I played a Steingraeber-Phoenix A-170 that was £34,602. This price has now gone up to £35,640 - not too large an increase (note: Mr Dain at Hurstwood Farm said all the Steingraeber prices had literally just gone up).

The price he gave me for a traditional model A-170 Steingraeber & Söhne was £41,381. Not bad, if I say so myself. However, I wasn't sure whether I was expecting that to be a little higher or lower. Nonetheless, that's still only around £6,000 more than the Steingraeber-Phoenix model. Mr Dain also said there is a studio version of the A-170 for £35,640.

I also have prices for the B-192. The Steingraeber-Phoenix version was originally £37,499 but went up to £38,624 with the price increase. The traditional Steingraeber & Söhne model was £48,368 (just over £10,000 more than the Phoenix counterpart, a big difference - don't think I expected that one). The studio version of the B-192 is £41,658. Again, a large difference between the traditional and studio model and almost as cheap (I use the word loosely!) as the traditional A-170.

Now, using the current exchange rates, I don't know how these prices rack up to the American price tags you have on the Steingraebers over there. Who knows, it may be cheaper to buy one here in England and have it shipped over!?
_________________________
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