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#2108956 - 06/27/13 08:43 AM Adjudicator With Double Standards?
TheAccompanist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/18/12
Posts: 86
Loc: Australia
Hello!
So I was at a piano competition recently, watching, and when the adjudicator gave their adjudication for a section they commented on how you should not play forte in music by composers such as Mozart and Beethoven as what we think of forte, but as what their pianos (Mozart's and Beethoven's) in their time would have played forte (perhaps our mezzo forte they suggested) and for this reasoning they gave a competitor who I thought did a fantastic job of a Sonata by Beethoven nothing! Not even an Honourable Mention!

Then a couple sections later the adjudicator gave somebody who played a Bach Prelude and Fugue, and who played it in a somewhat 'romantic' style (used a lot of rubato and for my taste perhaps a bit too much pedal**) first place! The adjudicator commented that "Although this piece was written for Harpsichord, we are playing it on the piano, so we should take full advantage of all the benefits the modern piano gives us!"

So, unless I am missing something here, does this adjudicator have double standards? confused
Just interested to hear some other peoples thoughts on this! smile

**I believe that you can use pedal in Bach, just not as much as this person was...

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#2109026 - 06/27/13 11:43 AM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: TheAccompanist]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6084
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
If you want music to sound like it did on a period instrument, then lug in a period instrument.

What was the age level of the competitors? And how large/known is the competition? (That may shine a couple clues on how good the judge is!)

Competitions suck.

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#2109043 - 06/27/13 12:09 PM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: Orange Soda King]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19873
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
Competitions suck.

No they don't. smile

Recognizing that I might know the OP and may even have come across him or her at said event and don't want to offend him/her grin .....I would have to say that there must have been more to it than is being stated. First of all, it's never just a thing of whether you did or didn't do it in such-and-such a way; it's HOW you did it in whatever way you did it, and I've come to see that in these competitions, almost always it's very impressive how the judges are willing to reward very different kinds of approaches, provided the person does it well. And besides, this thing is being presented as though there was just the one factor involved in the people's playing and how it was judged. That's never true; it's never just "did he do the fortes properly or not" or "do I think he approaches Bach wrong."

Take it with as many grains of salt as exist in the universe, because that's how it needs to be taken. It's not that simple -- not nearly.

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#2109081 - 06/27/13 01:24 PM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: Mark_C]
Charles Cohen Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1541
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
Many years ago, the New York Philharmonic made a change to its audition policy:

. . . Musicians play from _behind a screen_, so that the
. . . judge couldn't see them.

The effect was an immediate increase in the number of women and non-white players in the orchestra.

. charles

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#2109130 - 06/27/13 02:53 PM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: Charles Cohen]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2779
Originally Posted By: Charles Cohen

The effect was an immediate increase in the number of women and non-white players in the orchestra.

. charles


Hmmm....

Potential thread locker arguments...
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#2109192 - 06/27/13 05:04 PM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: Orange Soda King]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5381
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
If you want music to sound like it did on a period instrument, then lug in a period instrument.

whistle thumb whistle

Amen.
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Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2109220 - 06/27/13 06:08 PM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: TheAccompanist]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5598
Loc: Orange County, CA
Don't put too much weight in what the adjudicator says/writes. It is just one musician's opinion, not a stated fact. And, at the end of the day, it is just a competition.
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#2109309 - 06/27/13 09:15 PM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: AZNpiano]
TheAccompanist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/18/12
Posts: 86
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
If you want music to sound like it did on a period instrument, then lug in a period instrument.

Haha! smile

Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
What was the age level of the competitors? And how large/known is the competition? (That may shine a couple clues on how good the judge is!)

These competitors she (the adjudicator) was talking to were from like, 16-17 years old. All of them are doing 8th grade, and a couple doing their AMusA. (In Australia 8th grade is the highest grade (AMEB) and AMusA is an associate diploma.)
The adjudicator was a highly accredited examiner and teacher at a music conservatorium here in a Australia (wont say which one... Don't want to plaster that on the internet :P ) She exams all over Australia and is very good... Thats why I thought it strange she came out with this???
But, maybe I read into it wrong, but she did seem to have a bias towards the girls... There was on section this male player clearly deserved to win, and he got second place...
The music competition is a massive eisteddfod where all the adjudicators are highly accredited and are almost all ways teachers from universities.

Mark_C, unfortunately thats how it was presented! She didn't comment on anything else, except for the person who played the Bach, she made some more comments, her words for her were few, and were along the lines of "Beautiful use of Rubato and pedal was good. Some people say we shouldn't pedal at all in Bach, others say use a little, but I think 'Although this piece was written for Harpsichord, we are playing it on the piano, so we should take full advantage of all the benefits the modern piano gives us!"
And when she commented on the kid who played the Beethoven, although she didn't specifically direct it to this pianist, it was pretty obvious who she was talking to as they were the only pianist in the section to play Beethoven.

Charles, thats actually very interesting!




Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Don't put too much weight in what the adjudicator says/writes. It is just one musician's opinion, not a stated fact. And, at the end of the day, it is just a competition.

Thats exactly what I think! But unfortunately it can make a student feel upset, perhaps targeted, if an adjudicator changes their attitude about something like that within 2 hours... Or if the adjudicator gives someone who was mediocre first and someone who did a brilliant job perhaps only an Honourable Mention, it can make the pianist who did the good job feel bad about their playing... unfortunately thats just the way it is with competitions smirk
-I was an accompanist for the singing component for this competition, and trust me, its even worse when this happens to the singers... hahaha :P Lots of crying and (rhymes with snitching) about each other... and unfortunately at times, I have to sit and listen to it backstage D: hahaha thank goodness I was playing most of the time :P
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#2109314 - 06/27/13 09:30 PM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: TheAccompanist]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10422
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Quote:
But unfortunately it can make a student feel upset, perhaps targeted, if an adjudicator changes their attitude about something like that within 2 hours... Or if the adjudicator gives someone who was mediocre first and someone who did a brilliant job perhaps only an Honourable Mention, it can make the pianist who did the good job feel bad about their playing... unfortunately thats just the way it is with competitions


Water off a duck's back. If you have that attitude you can enjoy these events. If you take it too seriously, or worry too much about the "ultimate truths" contained in the adjudicator's comments, you can give yourself an unnecessary ulcer and needlessly feel inadequate.
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#2109324 - 06/27/13 10:18 PM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: Orange Soda King]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
If you want music to sound like it did on a period instrument, then lug in a period instrument.



Competitions suck.


+1
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

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#2109328 - 06/27/13 10:32 PM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: Hakki]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13818
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Originally Posted By: Charles Cohen

The effect was an immediate increase in the number of women and non-white players in the orchestra.


Hmmm....

Potential thread locker arguments...


Nope. This is a well-documented effect that screened auditions have had on American orchestras.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#2109343 - 06/27/13 10:48 PM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: TheAccompanist]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6084
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
At the same time, nothing wrong with some period instruments sometimes smile

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#2109345 - 06/27/13 10:50 PM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: TheAccompanist]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19873
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: iMou354
Mark_C, unfortunately thats how it was presented!....

Cool! cool

But that's not what I meant. grin

I meant that the adjudication wasn't just based on the things you said. You made it sound like it was -- like, when you said "and for this reasoning they gave a competitor who I thought did a fantastic job of a Sonata by Beethoven nothing" (plus that there couldn't be any suspicion of "double standard" unless you're assuming the decisions had to be based a lot on those things that you said). I'm saying it almost certainly wasn't that simple, and rarely is. Such decisions are rarely so one-dimensional.

Assuming that what you're saying about the judge's view and biases is accurate, there have to have been other factors involved in the decision -- things like how well or not well they did those controversial things you talked about, and/or other musical factors. The fact that the judge didn't talk about any other factors doesn't mean that nothing else was involved (plus, I must say, I can't help wondering if he did talk about some other things but they just didn't stand out to you). Anyway, there's an infinite number of pianistic and musical factors that can be involved in such decisions, and I think they all usually are. wink

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#2109459 - 06/28/13 04:07 AM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: Mark_C]
TheAccompanist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/18/12
Posts: 86
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: iMou354
Mark_C, unfortunately thats how it was presented!....

Cool! cool

But that's not what I meant. grin

I meant that the adjudication wasn't just based on the things you said. You made it sound like it was -- like, when you said "and for this reasoning they gave a competitor who I thought did a fantastic job of a Sonata by Beethoven nothing" (plus that there couldn't be any suspicion of "double standard" unless you're assuming the decisions had to be based a lot on those things that you said). I'm saying it almost certainly wasn't that simple, and rarely is. Such decisions are rarely so one-dimensional.


I know that in judging a music competition (any kind of contest at that) it does not come down to one thing that splits first place and not placing at all, but I know this Beethoven piece they played very well and they played it extremely well! There was not one perfect performance in that section and the Beethoven to me stood out above the rest as 'the best', and I think this performer certainly deserved first in their section (the person who got first played Claire Delune (perhaps more difficult than the Beethoven but it was not executed too well) it was good, yes, but not as good as the Beethoven in my opinion.)

But all "this person played this well" or "This person played this better than them" stuff aside, the point of this thread is that the adjudicator changed their belief on something, one second they were saying "We must play on our piano as they would have played in their day" to "We have this modern piano, so we should take full advantage of all its benefits!"

Get what I mean? Is this not a double standard? Or do you think the adjudicator was just changing their thoughts on something to justify the awards they handed out? Which could still be a double standard, or simply that, saying what they want to say to justify their decisions.




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#2109463 - 06/28/13 04:26 AM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: Piano*Dad]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5381
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Quote:
But unfortunately it can make a student feel upset, perhaps targeted, if an adjudicator changes their attitude about something like that within 2 hours... Or if the adjudicator gives someone who was mediocre first and someone who did a brilliant job perhaps only an Honourable Mention, it can make the pianist who did the good job feel bad about their playing... unfortunately thats just the way it is with competitions


Water off a duck's back. If you have that attitude you can enjoy these events. If you take it too seriously, or worry too much about the "ultimate truths" contained in the adjudicator's comments, you can give yourself an unnecessary ulcer and needlessly feel inadequate.

Yeah, don't take any judge/adjudicator comments too seriously. In my last world martial arts competition, I narrowly won kata/forms because one judge scored me extremely low. Since I was a higher rank than her, I asked her afterwards why she scored me so low. She said my kicks were weak. (They are my strongest asset.) I made it a point to win every single fight in the latter half of the tournament by using only kicks. After I won, she came up to me and said, "Wow, you have really nice kicks." I smiled and said, "That's not what you said after my kata. Remember?" She walked away. After 20+ years of competing, I could get away with that. But that's not the point...

Point is -- judges are human. They hear what they hear and see what they see in the moment. They make judgements, and not always the best ones or the ones that adhere to reality. You can let it bother you, or you can brush it off. Brushing it off doesn't mean you can't learn from the experience and come back stronger the next time, but it does mean you'll have a more enjoyable experience. wink
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2109465 - 06/28/13 04:32 AM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: Derulux]
TheAccompanist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/18/12
Posts: 86
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Quote:
But unfortunately it can make a student feel upset, perhaps targeted, if an adjudicator changes their attitude about something like that within 2 hours... Or if the adjudicator gives someone who was mediocre first and someone who did a brilliant job perhaps only an Honourable Mention, it can make the pianist who did the good job feel bad about their playing... unfortunately thats just the way it is with competitions


Water off a duck's back. If you have that attitude you can enjoy these events. If you take it too seriously, or worry too much about the "ultimate truths" contained in the adjudicator's comments, you can give yourself an unnecessary ulcer and needlessly feel inadequate.


Point is -- judges are human. They hear what they hear and see what they see in the moment. They make judgements, and not always the best ones or the ones that adhere to reality. You can let it bother you, or you can brush it off. Brushing it off doesn't mean you can't learn from the experience and come back stronger the next time, but it does mean you'll have a more enjoyable experience. wink


I know, and I agree smile Im not overly fussed- I wasn't the competitor nor were they my students, but just this situation got me thinking- thats why I posted here, to hear what others thought! smile
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#2109503 - 06/28/13 08:14 AM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: TheAccompanist]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8027
Originally Posted By: iMou354


But all "this person played this well" or "This person played this better than them" stuff aside, the point of this thread is that the adjudicator changed their belief on something, one second they were saying "We must play on our piano as they would have played in their day" to "We have this modern piano, so we should take full advantage of all its benefits!"

Get what I mean? Is this not a double standard? Or do you think the adjudicator was just changing their thoughts on something to justify the awards they handed out? Which could still be a double standard, or simply that, saying what they want to say to justify their decisions.



I don't know the adjudicator's thoughts, obviously, but I have a hunch that this person may have some fairly strong ideas about transferring Baroque music to the modern piano which may follow a different logic than how they think about transferring Classical era music to the modern piano. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, IMO, regardless of whether I agree with their opinions about it.

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#2109573 - 06/28/13 10:20 AM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: TheAccompanist]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13818
Loc: Iowa City, IA
A thought:

The adjudicator might simply be treating students as individuals.

I can see a situation where I would react similarly to this judge. Student A plays a classical work but lacks polish and a sense of style; therefore I might draw the student's attention to the fact that dynamic fluctuations were more tempered in the classical era and ask that they go for a more nuanced, controlled shading in their sound.

Student B, however, plays a somewhat romanticized Bach Prelude and Fugue, but their interpretation is thoughtful and their execution excellent.

And really, it probably just comes down to the fact that Student B connected better with the music and the audience than Student A. Sure, as an adjudicator I have to write down some comments, but people often don't understand that the relationship between comments and the final result is a strange one. Often, the best performers are the ones who simply give you more to say (both positive and negative), whereas the worst performers are the ones who don't inspire you to say or think much of anything.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#2109733 - 06/28/13 03:00 PM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: Kreisler]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2779
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Originally Posted By: Charles Cohen

The effect was an immediate increase in the number of women and non-white players in the orchestra.


Hmmm....

Potential thread locker arguments...


Nope. This is a well-documented effect that screened auditions have had on American orchestras.


Non-white women superior to White-men?

White-men raise your voice! ha
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

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#2109740 - 06/28/13 03:16 PM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: Mark_C]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Such decisions are rarely so one-dimensional.

Assuming that what you're saying about the judge's view and biases is accurate, there have to have been other factors involved in the decision


Oh I'm certain there were. Like...

1- The judge didn't like the competitor's suit.
2- Somebody refused to go on a "date" with, well, somebody.
3- Either party said the wrong thing in the hallway.
4- Bribes were involved.
5- The judge skipped their meds that day.
6- ...or had one too many right before.

Considering how antiquated, arbitrary and surreal (even though commonly held) that belief is, about the limitations of Mozart's piano and all, it makes one wonder what the heck the judge was actually thinking. Or maybe not thinking.

Competitions do suck. At that level, the losing competitor did not get a stipend or scholarship they should've gotten.


Edited by laguna_greg (06/28/13 03:16 PM)
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1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
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#2109832 - 06/28/13 05:44 PM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: laguna_greg]
asiantraveller101 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 158
Loc: ME
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
[quote=Mark_C]

...Oh I'm certain there were. Like...

1- The judge didn't like the competitor's suit...

I once had an adjudicator of a well-known competition commenting on my lady student's red shoes... Made me wonder what they were listening to, or in this case, looking at/for.


Edited by asiantraveller101 (06/28/13 05:45 PM)
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#2109874 - 06/28/13 07:04 PM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: TheAccompanist]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York City
While I think there is some logical inconsistency in the judge's comments, I don't think complete logical consistency is required in every musical choice. I don't think every great teacher or pianist is necessarily always logically consistent in their ideas. Maybe the judge has simply heard some great pianist who plays Bach in a Romantic way and was very convinced by that performance. Edit: Or for and even better explanation see Kreisler's comment.

For example, I can imagine the judge explaining his ideas by saying something like "Beethoven's instrument is closer to a modern piano so one should/can try and emulate how the piece sounded on Beethoven's instrument. Bach's keyboard instrument is so far from a modern piano that there's no point in trying to imitate that sound." I'm not saying I agree with that argument but I think there's at least some logic to it.

All the comments about other motivations are complete speculation. No one has any idea why the judge felt this way or even if the quoted comments correctly reflect the judge's ideas. Maybe a simple follow up question would reveal the ideas expressed in the OP don't accurately reflect the judge's ideas.


Edited by pianoloverus (06/28/13 07:39 PM)

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#2109879 - 06/28/13 07:21 PM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: TheAccompanist]
TheAccompanist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/18/12
Posts: 86
Loc: Australia
Kreisler, both pianists played like robots! eek Neither were connecting with the piece.
The Beethoven was played technically perfect and the Bach was too! If these 2 pianists were in a section together they undoubtedly would have taken out first and second place!
Thats what is so baffling- it seems that for some reason this adjudicator in one section gave the Beethoven no placing for 1 reason, but then in another section, gave someone first place who 'broke' this rule of the adjudicator and the adjudicator changed their rule! Or belief, rather!

-Everyone in the theatre was shocked too that the Beethoven didn't win in his section. It was one of those things where it was obvious who should have won, but the adjudicator didn't see it that way!

--Growing up, I use to do competitions (I always did well) but my teacher use to say "If you want to compete in competitions, play sport!" laugh Which I think is so true! I don't think music should be judged like this. However, things like competitions and eisteddfods do have awesome positives- its great to get plenty of performance opportunity!
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#2109940 - 06/28/13 10:18 PM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: pianoloverus]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Hi Pianolover,

"While I think there is some logical inconsistency in the judge's comments, I don't think complete logical consistency is required in every musical choice."

When it comes to awarding scholarships, admission letters, stipends, government grants, teaching assistantships, approving concert proposals at major venues, or other awards that can make or break an educational (and therefore musical) career, I think that's one of the most inane, self-serving and ignorant remarks I've heard anybody make on these forums.

Do you want to try that again? Please make the effort. I'd like to have a better opinion of you.

Or are you really talking about everybody else's students but your own? If the latter, then we'll know exactly what to think.


Edited by laguna_greg (06/28/13 10:27 PM)
Edit Reason: oops oops oops oops
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Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2109941 - 06/28/13 10:19 PM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: TheAccompanist]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Hi iMou,

""If you want to compete in competitions, play sport!" laugh Which I think is so true!..."

I hear you. And it shouldn't be judged on those values, or it's not Art any longer.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2109944 - 06/28/13 10:28 PM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: laguna_greg]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Hi Pianolover,

"While I think there is some logical inconsistency in the judge's comments, I don't think complete logical consistency is required in every musical choice."

When it comes to awarding scholarships, admission letters, stipends, teaching assistantships or other awards that can make or break an educational (and therefore musical) career, I think that's one of the most inane remarks I've heard anybody make on these forums.

Do you want to try that again?

Or are you really talking about everybody else's students but your own?
I don't have any students. My point was that strict logical consistency may not always the most important criteria to judge a musical performance. I don't think that good judges or great pianists are always concerned about how their ideas fit together in terms of consistency.

I gave two specific examples of how the judge might have justified his thinking. Kreisler explained how the statements the judge made could be perfectly appropriate.


Edited by pianoloverus (06/28/13 10:32 PM)

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#2109969 - 06/28/13 11:17 PM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: pianoloverus]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
...inane...self-serving...ignorant...

Well, you're proving my point for me so well. When you have, or have had, even one horse in the race, your (wrong-headed) opinion will count for more. Ivo Pogorelich and Marthe Argerich would both be kicking you in the head by now, considering how he lost (read: won) the Chopin in Warsaw!

I'm so glad that that jury's opinion counted for less than the straw on a tent floor!

Competitions do suck. Even the head-injured can be invited to adjudicate, and most obviously are at every level, over and over again. Their opinions last longer than the shelf life of a dairy product and, possibly, affect careers, and earning potentials.

It's only a Small Revenge, but How Satisfying It Is (for the assailant, anyway)!


Edited by laguna_greg (06/28/13 11:21 PM)
Edit Reason: oops oops oops oops
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Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2109977 - 06/28/13 11:44 PM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: TheAccompanist]
Piano*Dad Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10422
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Let's chill a bit. I think we're talking about a teen competition here, not the Cliburn.

Judging is, well, a judgment not a mathematical proof. It will always be subject to second guessing and disagreement. How much a young person gets out of this sort of event is often determined, or at least strongly influenced, by the attitude they take in. My eldest played in many of these events for, oh, about six years. I think he really enjoyed it. He won some that he deserved to win. He lost some that he deserved to lose. He also lost some he deserved to win and won some he deserved to lose … that's my opinion, of course. The judges who had him winning events I thought he should have lost clearly disagreed. smile

The primary point of these events was to participate, to meet and socialize with other young people with the same interests and intensity, and to learn a bit about the process and about yourself under modestly stressful circumstances. Yes, there was often real money and/or exposure on the line. Only one person got to play the concerto, and first was worth more than honorable mention. In most events, however, the cream did rise even if one could argue about subtle differences that distinguished first from third. If you are the sort that gets really upset when you perceive injustice, this stuff can really suck. But if you have more of an "oh well" attitude, it can be fun.
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#2109994 - 06/29/13 12:13 AM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: Piano*Dad]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Piano,

As I said, when you have a horse in the race, even your own (which you don't and never did), you opinion will carry some weight.

..and you don't know what you are talking about in regard to this one competition...

Until then. Really....

Chill yourself, and show some respect for those of us who actually work in the profession....

...which you don't...

BTW, have you ever competed in a juried regional exam?

Cheers!


Edited by laguna_greg (06/29/13 12:16 AM)
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2109997 - 06/29/13 12:16 AM Re: Adjudicator With Double Standards? [Re: laguna_greg]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19873
Loc: New York
Hey Laguna -- are you on something today? grin

You're being quite 'out there.' I don't remember you being like this before but maybe I just haven't been paying enough attention. ha

About this quite mild stuff in your reply to me:

Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Such decisions are rarely so one-dimensional.
Assuming that what you're saying about the judge's view and biases is accurate, there have to have been other factors involved in the decision

....Considering how antiquated, arbitrary and surreal (even though commonly held) that belief is, about the limitations of Mozart's piano and all, it makes one wonder what the heck the judge was actually thinking. Or maybe not thinking....

I can only say, take a look at Kreisler's posts. Not to mention mine. grin
(We said essentially the same.)

I think you're taking what is being reported here way too much at face value. I doubt that the judge's true view is what is being stated. I've got to think it's more likely that he was talking very much about how the fortes in the Beethoven were done, not merely any simplistic thing related to fortepianos.

Look.....Which thing is more likely: that the judge is such a complete fool.......or that what's being said here is only part of the story, including maybe that it somewhat misrepresents what the judge said, perhaps even because the judge didn't do the greatest job of making himself clear? Here's how I see it:

Frequency of piano adjudicators being such fools: more than 0% but not very high.

General frequency of things that are said about such complex things being only part of the story: hovering around 100%.

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