Originally posted by Norbert:
Go ahead - ask me about *German beer*, next.........

Norbert [/b]

"There was a Sauter upright that I played as well and I won't go so far to say that the Steigerman upright sounded better, but there really wasn't much difference. Certainly not thousands of dollars worth of difference."

Originally posted by Wzkit:
...oweners...[/b]

Originally posted by Wzkit:
Chick..you got me on THAT typo!

Fortunately, I don't owe anybody anything for my piano...cash is king! [/b]

Originally posted by ChickGrand:
I liked the word as soon as I saw it. You might not have intended it, but I officially added it to my vocabulary as a good newly-coined word the second I saw it. [/b]

Originally posted by LeManitou:
I thought I might add a few thoughts for the benefit of rating Sauters.

Allow first to demonstrate my experience with these fine pianos. I have worked upon hundreds of Sauters of all sizes and shapes (tuning, voicing, complete regulation - MLine, Maly, 9' etc...)
I have studied the piano for 26 years and spent my first 19 in France, where my contact with various piano brands is likely different from American-bound dwellers.
I have enjoyed spending time at the Sauter factory, in Spaichingen and was able to compare their level of manufacturing with other factories I have visited (Pleyel, CRW..)

Now generally speaking, I beleive that there ought not be any differences between the grand and upright pianos made by a high-end builder; and would generally consider them equally. That being said, many Technicians have little regard for any Steinway upright which should either remove NY Steinway from the top tier, or at the very least, their uprights.
To me the issue at hand needs deal mostly with comnparing Sauter pianos to those other makers currently assigned to tier 1.

There is a very real and observable difference of overall quality between a Bosendorfer and a Samick for instance, none could doubt this. This same palpable difference does exist between the truly finely crafted Sauter pianos and say a NY Steinway (pianos that appear to be raw, rough and devoid of any finishing touches). For me, I cannot conceive of placing NY Steinway, M&H or Baldwin in the same category of detail, quality control, evenness of mechanics and tone, to that of Sauter or other makers listed in the top tier. There is simply too much of a gap in quality. I am somewhat mistified that these makers are able to acheive similar status to the nearly hand-crafted Steingraeber and Bosendorfer when piano rebuilders across this country can vouch for their incredible lack of quality control from one piano to another (or is this "character").

There is also a visible difference between a Schimmel and a Sauter (one has only to play them to know) demonstrated both in the detailed veneers, finishes and once again mechanics and tone.

I have spent a great deal of time working and playing upon the great German pianos and can say without hesitation that the Sauter pianos have great musical appeal. They have a very even and moderately light action which can be expected to translate all the pianists intentions into the most accurate musical expressions. The tone is replete with a very large dynamic pallet from which the shining feature must be its long, long sustain. A joy to play upon when the music requires a sustained melodic line! The tone is much more complex than a Schimmel or Seiler, yet still cleaner than AF or Bluthner. There is great depth and a near impressionistic fluidity to the versatil timbres available. I have had the distinct pleasure of playing upon 4, 9' Sauters and working upon 2. There is little in the piano world to compare with these near perfect pianos and judgment ought to be reserved until equal or adequate time has been spent upon these.

We must be always aware that these tiered listing offer little more truth than mine or your opinion and the depth of any opinion rests subjectively upon experience, training and inherent artistic understanding.

With this in mind, my opinions regarding the rating of piano brands must differ from Mr. Fines and I would absolutely place Sauter in the top tier and, remove NY Steinway, M&H and Baldwin.

I have over the years looked for a more understandable way to clarify piano quality and have made my own ratings of grand pianos with the added comparison of a car. You may email me if you wish a copy of this (entertaining) document. Please note that I have little time to spare on debates and whatever comments this post might engender, I would only be aware of these due to an direct email to myself.
Mnitou@msn.com

Respectfully,
Manitou - Pianist - Technician [/b]

Originally posted by pianistical:
Wzkit,

In Europe, the order of recognition is as follows:
Steinway, Bechstein, Blüthner, Bösendorfer, Förster and Steingraeber.

It seems to me that Bösendorfer has marketed themselves very well as a piano of European high culture in the US and in some Asian countries where they often are regarded as the alternative to Steinway. Traditionally the alternative in Europe has mostly been Bechstein and some times Bösendorfer and Bluthner.

Traditionally in Europe, Bösendorfer comes in at fourth place behind Bechstein and Blüthner in name recognition. The reason is that Bechstein and Blüthner have been more the more favored instruments. There are plenty of them around.

This may very well change as Europe is influenced by the trend in the US. [/b]

Originally posted by Grotriman:
[BAD POST FOLLOWS]

What a load of CRAP! What nerve Pianistical! I ding you one star. [/b]