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Those notes did not creep, you tuned them at that pitch on the video.
And you never noticed the cheek blocks were missing?
Last edited by accordeur; 06/28/13 12:50 AM.
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I would not like a customer of mine ever to operate a player grand piano with the action not fully secured. The possibility of damage is all too likely.
Semipro Tech
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I would not like a customer of mine ever to operate a player grand piano with the action not fully secured. The possibility of damage is all too likely. Yes, even a regular action.
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Thank you GPM for posting these high quality videos (in 1080p no less!). These clips really helped me hear how Bill approaches piano tuning with tone-clusters at each step of the tuning process. And thank you Bill for agreeing to be recorded both aurally and visually during your piano tuning procedure. It takes a lot of courage to go through the whole procedure on camera, knowing that something might go unexpected (as did with the F4 a couple of times), and more importantly knowing that this video would be broadcast on YouTube and this piano tech's forum, for all to judge. Some people will always be overly judgmental and nit-picky about a routine home tuning that is broadcast for all to see. I however see it as a great resource (and a free resource at that!) to beginners as well as seasoned tuners. It's never too late to learn something new, or to at least hear a different perspective on how to aurally tune a piano. From watching these videos I feel I have more arsenal at my disposal, more tricks in my 'bag of tricks', when I sit down to tune. Although I do not follow your procedure exactly, I can see how I might incorporate some of your ideas into my own work. For instance, during the initial CM3's setting, I use Jack Stebbins' 'Let the piano tell you' method (that you posted for us!). This adds the lower C#3 to the ladder of M3rds, and has yet to fail me - from a Lester spinet to a Steinway grand. I find if you take the extra time to get this big ladder right in the beginning, it's hard to go astray - you are setting yourself up for success. I use the Marpurg sequence exactly as you do in the video, but with my own 'tweaking'. I prefer the 4ths to "roll" slightly faster than the 5ths. I try to favor the 5ths ever so slightly. I wouldn't advise this for a beginner though, as it takes a little more experience and a more sensitive ear during the process, especially on smaller pianos. But I have found that it smooths out the resulting RBI progression when I double-check after everything is done. I use your 'mindless octaves' approach going up and down from the temperament area, but I start doing it sooner, even before F5. As I get nearer the top of the piano, again I 'tweak' your method to suit my own taste: I start favoring the 12ths to be purer than the double octaves. This gives slightly more stretch, but it is much easier than trying to check very rapid 17ths at the top of the piano (for me anyway). I will now see how I can incorporate your tone-clusters in my already very 'hybrid' method. Whatever gets the job done right? :-) The best thing about your wonderful techniques Bill is that there is very little backtracking (if it all). These techniques of yours are real time-savers and continually produce consistent, high-quality results when I tune. Thank you for your teachings, articles, and now, videos. They and you are appreciated. You and GPM should look into doing some multiple camera tuning-training videos in HD. I'm sure you could sell them on your website. I for one would buy them, and anyone looking to get into aural tuning, I would say to them, "These are required-learning prerequisite courses for all beginners." Thanks again, -Erich
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Doesn't sound too sharp to me. I don't think I'd want to push it any farther, but it certainly works. I'd be glad to have someone think I did that tuning.
Regarding hammer technique. . . I think it's good to have more than one approach in your bag of tricks. I sometimes bump-tune and sometimes pull. Either can work -- both require development of the technique or the tuning will not be stable. Somehow, some pianos seem to "want" one or the other and other pianos don't care at all.
Keith Akins, RPT Piano Technologist USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
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I certainly did not want to say that posting youtube videos of proper technique and approach to tuning should be a bad idea.
I just expected more from Mr. Bremmer. Given his reputation and all.
I've been reading half of what he writes for years now.
I did enter his EBVT 3 numbers in tunelab, and they were enjoyable. They only vary from ET by a few cents anyways. But, if you miss by a cent, you end up throwing a penny in a well. Not good.
All the best.
Last edited by accordeur; 06/28/13 01:34 AM.
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Regarding hammer technique. . . I think it's good to have more than one approach in your bag of tricks. I sometimes bump-tune and sometimes pull. Either can work -- both require development of the technique or the tuning will not be stable. Somehow, some pianos seem to "want" one or the other and other pianos don't care at all. Yes
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Well Isaac, I totally disagree because that is the way I have tuned for 34 years. I accept that for some people, a slow push and pull works but I prefer the impact method which causes all segments of the string to move at once. Hello Bill, you did not get my point there, yet if it can sound as advocating for slow pull (that I use now after having using a similar bump or "jerk" method) I said that the pîn and the top segment of the string have to be "tuned too" The fact that it lenghten the job should not be an issue if the customer pays for it. In case of Grandpiano, it is probably not worth as he wnat to retune his piano for fun and personal training (may be) The control on the job is one step above once you have verified which position is the pin and how is the upper segment. NOw the other point is about gaining a tuned attack via the tail of the tone. It is just a guess game, of course if the consonance is good the piano will not be far from its own justness, but it does not give you the projection part of the job. Particularly in the treble it just count on a little playing for the tone to get more crispness (or more beats) If you want to tune "in the spectra" tuning just when the note rings is possible. after, the coupling effect is so strong you can obtain anything, attack/decay wise, and no much attack in that precise case. You just do not trust me that you could have more firmness of tone (you seem to like having a firm tone so it should please you) All the best .
Last edited by Olek; 06/28/13 01:43 AM.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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Sorry
Last edited by accordeur; 06/28/13 01:00 PM. Reason: not worth it
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Sorry
Last edited by accordeur; 06/28/13 01:00 PM. Reason: irrelevant
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH7DzIytK7wNo, no, no please, don't jerk the lever!!! Just punch it when you are unhappy. And please don't forget to hit the note a thousand times before you are sure. And to overshoot, just to make sure your hearing is still intact. I made the video to test the slapping method (impact tuning) I had to play the note thousand time just to see if it was set with that method.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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I see, sorry.
All the best.
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But Jean your tuning can slip, then... As you noticed Grandpianoman understood the method when he tuned his piano, everyone goes on complimenting him at that point, you included. This video was not intended for old tuners that does not want to keep an open mind but for general purpose, and to explain how the pin is set with more firmness than with the fast method, I can leave a piano in professional hands for quiet a long time, so indeed they pay me more for the tuning but it is worth in the end) and some have yet understood what is it about. The little firmness added is also heard. If you do not trust me or if you can earn a living with your way this is not my concern. In the end it play against me as the pianos keep the tuning for too long, but you bet the customers do not call another tuner...
Last edited by Olek; 06/28/13 02:26 AM.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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I see, sorry.
All the best. Nevermind, I know how unnerving I can be !!
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH7DzIytK7wNo, no, no please, don't jerk the lever!!! Just punch it when you are unhappy. And please don't forget to hit the note a thousand times before you are sure. And to overshoot, just to make sure your hearing is still intact. I made the video to test the slapping method (impact tuning) I had to play the note thousand time just to see if it was set with that method. I find that the bumping method gives control if the system have been stressed prior to use it . With a piano that have no torque "differential" installed, it is left the same. With a piano that have a firm pin/front segment part it is used in concert tuning for the small corrections needed, but the foundation of the tuning was there at the start (as it was on GP, I would not be surprised that Bill find the pins tighter than when he tuned it the last time)
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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I even prefer the unisons that you did , Pianoman, and on a second listening your tuning (not finished) sound more just to my ears there : http://youtu.be/PppXyVMhjTIThose unisons have a nice clean attack and a well developed spectra, as some of us wrote. The method Bill uses focus on consonance for justness, it gives the piano a too large control on justness in my opinion. Those things are good when the human have something to decide, as they let you know the piano "reacts" A second listening on the first video with good headphone makes me hear something non balanced, harmonically, if the full center of the piano. Small mistakes or unevenness are not always so annoying, but when it begin to be noticed really a limit have been passed. I would say also that the lever method does not guarantee that the note is staying there at 0.5 cts near (unless played enough and with a test blow) The creep, is probably not easy to perceive or even to notice on an ETD (due to pitch fluctuations, good luck to be sure of a 0.5 cts drift) but they may be enough to make the unison different from the original intention.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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Bill. I notice that you never play the top octave note simultaneously with its octave below. If you did that, you would hear by the tone quality that the top octave notes are excruciatingly sharp and unevenly so. The top c has two strings ringing that are approx. a quarter tone apart. Many concertos use those top octaves played simultaneously in quite exposed passages. This aspect really let's you down and I'm really surprised that it falls within guild specs, I suspect it doesn't. a few M17th checks would also disclose how screaming sharp you left it.
It is all well and good that you have clients who like this, even 'respected' musicians. All tuners have them. Of course your clients like your work or they wouldnt employ you. That doesn't make them experts nor does it make you an expert. It makes you simply good enough. Such claims are meaningless and no experienced tuner is impressed by them. When I first started tuning, I quickly built a large clientele. That was before I learned to tune properly.
In the old days we could get away with sloppy work like that. Today's modern composers are writing unisons and octaves with woodwinds, electronics and tuned percussion, etc. in those regions. Pianos tune sharp enough up there anyway. Far more care than that has to be taken.
Others have spoken of other aspects of these tapes so i see no need to repeat them. I would like to hear the M17ths derived from the low singles that seemed to have been left very wide. Of course any beginning tuner would immediately see that those 10ths and17ths are extremely uneven. Some of them too fast for any musical context.
The emperor has no clothes.
There are some glaring habits left over from when you were a beginner.
It really shouldn't be necessary to record the pitches and then tune the piano all over again brutally to hammer them home. If hammering the notes is your only way of producing a solid tuning, something is wrong with your pin setting. What you are doing assumes that you, by merely jerking the keys down quickly, can hit a note harder than any other person likely to play that piano.
Any tuner using a good technique will quickly realise that test blows are becoming increasingly less necessary because the strings stay put by "doing it all at the pin". Far less tiring. Far less time consuming.
A real expert who can set pins can regularly raise pitch a little and leave the piano solidly tuned, defying anybody to disturb a string no matter how brutal and vulgar their playing. (and do it in about 35-50 minutes never going above mf). This is not some gee whiz one-off trick, it is a tacit requirement of my profession.
Are there no guild members who can do that? Surely there is someone who quietly impresses you with their pin setting that you could learn from?
Bill, I rarely come down on anybody like this but I feel justified because you are setting yourself up as something that you are not. You are simply a big fish in a small pond.
The world is full of associations composed of people patting each other on the back for mediocre achievements but I seriously doubt that the guild will come to your defence on thIs. Certainly not golden hammer material. While a top treble like yours was not common among instructors at guild conventions when I was attending them, I've heard some screaming trebles from some of them. it's as common as reverse well.
This is a public forum and there are those who may be impressed by these recordings. The professionals here are not. There are some great aspect of this recording but I just don't want the impressionable to emulate the worst aspects of this.
You are constantly comparing yourself with other tuners in your neck of the woods. This is a serious character flaw. Your work should be incomparable... ...Beyond compare and it simply isn't. Start comparing yourself with tuners better than you.
Perhaps you started teaching too early in your career, in that respect you are just like Max.
Never believe in your own legend.
Amanda Reckonwith Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England. "in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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Perhaps you started teaching too early in your career, in that respect you are just like Max. Never believe in your own legend. rxd, If you are trying to make a point by the shear power of nastiness, I think you will find it to be a very ineffectual way to convince someone of your position. If you have a point, please demonstrate and expose yourself to the same invective you feel entitled to unleash on others. Bill's tuning, your tuning, my tuning...all tunings, as well as everything else human is...uhh, human...fragile, imperfect...and in spite of that, or maybe because of that...damn interesting, beautiful and often inspiring. Is this the only way to tune? I don't think anyone was suggesting that it was...rather the point of the post was to introduce a technique that some might find useful...that's all...its not the end of the world... Jim Ialeggio
Last edited by jim ialeggio; 06/28/13 08:55 AM.
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Jim, Rxd is expressing his opinion of the matter; just as every other member of PW expresses their opinion.
Any member can choose to view any posting as they wish to. If you choose to view this as nastiness that is your choice and perhaps not the choice of someone else.
Here is another opinion of the matter; I consider these continued postings by the OP to be a subtle way of skirting the forum rules and advertising for a particular member’s way of tuning.
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The main problem with that bump method on the lever is that it is eventually possible on an instrument that is tuned daily and need no control on the front segment (I make efforts, there !)
If not we are purely guessing where the front segment is at the end. SO the complete motion when bumping the lever that way addresses the "front segment tuning" , if it was not tuned during the hammer motion, it have to be checked.
We cannot count only on the pin to even the tension, unfortunately.
In the end as soon as we are in front duplex zone, the tuning of the front segment is absolute necessity,it clears the tone and give the wanted sparkle.
This is what you see with the up or down moves that some tuners do at the end of the manipulation.
On an optimally set pin/wire system, when the lever is slighly raised, the tone follows, if not there is less tension than wanted in the front segment and then it lowers the energy by absorbing some of it (plus it will "give" when a too hard blow will be played)
To have optimum energy produced by the piano (his is AUDIBLE, not just a theoretical nebulous idea) the upper part, pin and wire, must be tense to the point that a little more and the note will raise. This simply add firmness to the wire fixture, and then helps the tone. You can absolutely feel that with the tone the tuning pin makes when you put the lever on it.
It makes it difficult to lower a note (BTW I believe that Pianoman have used some "slow pull and that now the pin setting is firm on his piano, as it can be seen in the videos it is not so easy to lower some notes, the pin really "grips")
That light method rob some energy, while it is available, may be also the cause of that "blotting" of the attack .
Of course the unison stabilize and couple, but the initial energy have not been totally reflected, some have been lost in the front segment.
If not enough time, the only choice for the tuner is to play harder, more, or use test blows, but it is not as precise as direct torquing of all the upper part of the sounding system.
I know what you mean by charging the pin positive. It's not something you hear many tuners talk about but it does make a difference in the quality of tone. I found myself doing it after about my third year tuning pianos and that is when I noticed a step-up in tone quality as well as stability. Before that I was achieving stability partly by heavy test blows. I no longer need to pound. I always charge the pin now.
Tuner-Technician
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