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Topic Options
#1655457 - 04/05/11 11:57 PM The Roland SN issue .... RD700NX, RD300NX, FP7F, RD700GXF .
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
I was reading a fair but about the cut off /polyphony issue on these boards and it appears that its endemic to the whole range.
I've got a few questions for those that own one of these boards.

Is it reproducible every time ? ie: does it happen always when certain playing parameters are met ?

Is it only occurring with supernatural voices ?

Is it only occurring with layers ?

Does it appear to be reaching the official polyphony limit or is it a internal processing issue with the SN engine.

Does playback of a mp3 or midi backing track cause it to happen with a piece that would be ok without the backing track?

Does it occur when using the mono piano ?

and finally ...

Has anyone with a earlier (HP307) SN piano noticed this issue ?
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#1655526 - 04/06/11 04:15 AM Re: The Roland SN issue .... RD700NX, RD300NX, FP7F, RD700GXF . [Re: Dr Popper]
Qbert Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 328
Loc: Italy
What I understood, it's not an issue anymore, since Roland delivered a correction update.
_________________________
GEM Promega 3 (sold) - Yamaha CLP 170 (sold) - Acuna88 (sold) - Kawai VPC1 + BK7m

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#1655533 - 04/06/11 04:57 AM Re: The Roland SN issue .... RD700NX, RD300NX, FP7F, RD700GXF . [Re: Dr Popper]
VivatRudolphus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/10
Posts: 52
Loc: Italy
FP-7F: string layering issue is there, note chopping without backing track is not there, note chopping with backing track is there. Source: personal experience.

RD-700NX: string layering issue has been solved in the most recent system update, note chopping without backing track is gone, note chopping with backing track is there. Source: this forum.

The strings problem happens when you layer this sound to a SN piano and play with some sustain (or if you use any patch combining piano and strings, such as the second one in the piano bank fort the FP-7F). Nothing fancy, even simple stuff will trigger it. It sounds like the piano exhausts polyphony allocated to the strings sound quite easily and it can just sustain a couple or even just a single most recently played note on the strings voice.
I don't think the piano just hits the "official" polyohony, obviously there's some other problem since they fixed it for the RD-700NX.

The note chopping issue instead looks like something that is due to low processing power or buffer size to me, and it occurs when bursts of data have to be fed into the SN sound engine. While playing, this sounds like the decay samples are simply skipped when repeating blocks of notes in a fast way, and by keeping the notes length short.
This overloads the system (I can't tell if it's the processor, the buffers, the bus or a combination of them), since it has to play attack, sustain and decay for this block of notes in a short time (that's why it happens when keeping note values short).
The problem only happens with a backing track as of now on the RD and the FP-7F, and this leads me to believe (I actually wrote this before they fixed it) it's a buffer problem, or a "bottleneck" problem, not a raw processing power one.
To hear it check this post and listen to the Note Chop Test w/ Backing sample. You can hear it near the end of the file.

Mind that the causes of those problems I mentioned in this post are just mere speculation by me, but I believe that the scenario I depicted must not be too far from truth.


Edited by VivatRudolphus (04/06/11 05:41 AM)
_________________________
Roland FP-7F

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#1656100 - 04/07/11 02:44 AM Re: The Roland SN issue .... RD700NX, RD300NX, FP7F, RD700GXF . [Re: Dr Popper]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
So to confirm the issue still applies when playing a mp3 file.

Is that the only scenario where the issue it happens?

Can anyone confirm that the exact same piece played with a backing track will trigger the note stealing and it will be fine without the backing track?
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#1656179 - 04/07/11 08:14 AM Re: The Roland SN issue .... RD700NX, RD300NX, FP7F, RD700GXF . [Re: Dr Popper]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
So to confirm the issue still applies when playing a mp3 file.

Is that the only scenario where the issue it happens?

Can anyone confirm that the exact same piece played with a backing track will trigger the note stealing and it will be fine without the backing track?

The DPBSD review of the FP-7F ( here ) has MP3s of the note decay chop test, both with and without a backing track. I can't hear it without the backing track, I can hear it with it.

The latest v1.03 firmware upgrade brings the RD-700NX to roughly the same level of performance as the FP-7F re. note decay chopping, plus it also fixes the layered string drop issue which the FP-7F reportedly still has.

Before the firmware upgrade, note decay chopping on the NX was worse with MP3 playback vs WAV playback. I haven't done this comparison after the upgrade but I assume MP3s are still worse.

For "the same exact piece" you can use my MIDI file that mimics JHbackingtracks' YouTube video, located in this post.
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The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
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#2107632 - 06/25/13 04:42 AM Re: The Roland SN issue .... RD700NX, RD300NX, FP7F, RD700GXF . [Re: Dr Popper]
danielragostar Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 14
Loc: London, England
I'm having some big troubles at the moment frown

So basically I have the FP-4f and the main sounds I use are:

Clav
Concert Grand 1
Pop E.Piano
Full Stops (organ)


(All default configs if configurable)

I recently bought the RD-700NX as a replacement/upgrade and when comparing sounds to the FP-4f, the FP4f sounds significantly springier and has more "bounce"/attack to the sound. When comparing we have all Equalizers and controllable effects (including Reverb) OFF. It's like the FP-4F is going through some nice powered pre-amp or effect before leaving the unit to give the sound more warmth and attack.

We have gone through and compared each sound, but each time the FP-4F wins in terms of punch.

My dad doesn't want me to part with with the "sound" of the FP4F.. but im seriously hoping that I'm missing something here, some things i think that could be worth exploring?

Is there a different method of stereo collapsing on the RD700NX as this piano also includes tones such as "Concert grand MONO" which the FP-4F doesn't have.
Is there some Chorus/AMP or other effect present on the FP-4F (even though not visible on any menus)?
Anything else?


I would be so grateful if you could help me with this, I love the functionality and additional piano sounds on the new RD700NX and it would be so much better than the FP-4f if only I could work out how to get some of that "attack" back that i had for each sound on the 4F.

Kind Regards,
Allan
_________________________
Roland HP-307
FP-4F
RD700NX (if i can get it sounding right!)

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#2108057 - 06/25/13 07:18 PM Re: The Roland SN issue .... RD700NX, RD300NX, FP7F, RD700GXF . [Re: Dr Popper]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 572
Loc: Mt View, CA
Perhaps you can share a good recording? I suspect I know what you're talking about though. Try decreasing the bass a bit on the 700NX (by 4~5 dB), use lid setting 7, then reduce sym.res from 52 to 26.

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#2108241 - 06/26/13 06:18 AM Re: The Roland SN issue .... RD700NX, RD300NX, FP7F, RD700GXF . [Re: xorbe]
danielragostar Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 14
Loc: London, England
Thanks for your help, I'll give that a go when i get home. Also I'll try and get some recordings. The clav is the main thing to compare too - they sound completely different. and what ever happend to the "Pop E.piano"
_________________________
Roland HP-307
FP-4F
RD700NX (if i can get it sounding right!)

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#2108818 - 06/27/13 12:28 AM Re: The Roland SN issue .... RD700NX, RD300NX, FP7F, RD700GXF . [Re: Dr Popper]
jef_citron Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/10
Posts: 21
Loc: France
be sure that there is no jack plugged in the headphone output
because it modify the sound of the line out
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Piano Seiler 116 Accent (superb acoustic piano)
Roland FP7-F (very good digital piano)

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#2109576 - 06/28/13 10:27 AM Re: The Roland SN issue .... RD700NX, RD300NX, FP7F, RD700GXF . [Re: jef_citron]
danielragostar Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 14
Loc: London, England
unfortunately doesn't help at all frown

Do any of you think it could be possible that the pre-loaded tones of the FP-4f/FP7f could have a different EQ? something like that? Independent of the master eq? in comparison to the RD700NX


Edited by danielragostar (06/28/13 10:27 AM)
_________________________
Roland HP-307
FP-4F
RD700NX (if i can get it sounding right!)

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#2111270 - 07/01/13 03:49 PM Re: The Roland SN issue .... RD700NX, RD300NX, FP7F, RD700GXF . [Re: Dr Popper]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 572
Loc: Mt View, CA
(Perhaps you can possibly share a good recording?)

If anyone can read this, I can't seem to open the DP sub-forum any longer:

We encountered a problem. The reason reported was
Database error only visible to forum administrators


But the other sub-forums are browsable!

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#2111279 - 07/02/13 12:16 AM Re: The Roland SN issue .... RD700NX, RD300NX, FP7F, RD700GXF . [Re: xorbe]
Rhodie73 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/11/08
Posts: 142
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: xorbe
(Perhaps you can possibly share a good recording?)

If anyone can read this, I can't seem to open the DP sub-forum any longer:

We encountered a problem. The reason reported was
Database error only visible to forum administrators


But the other sub-forums are browsable!


It's probably from the rehashing of 2 year old threads...danielragostar I mean this in the nicest way but instead of finding and posting the same issue in very old threads, start a new one. Btw xorbe has a good point, make recording of your problem and post it in a NEW thread.
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Rhodes Stage 73 (MKII), Roland RD-800, Roland RD-64, Yamaha P-255

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