Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

Trying Something New with Search
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyers Guide
Who's Online
85 registered (Bellicapelli, anamnesis, augustm, alerique, Almaviva, 17 invisible), 1558 Guests and 6 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#2110954 - 07/01/13 02:18 AM da capo al fine senza ripetizione - 1st or 2nd ending?
casinitaly Offline

Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 6290
Loc: Italy
Hello, my teacher is not available for a while, and I've got a question about a piece I'm working on: Schumann's Sicilienne.

The piece starts with 2 repeated sections, the second of which has 2 endings.

When I play d.c. al fine senza ripetizione, am I to play the second ending or the first? (it falls before the "fine", not at the "fine")

I've been trying to listen to performances on youtube but they are all different, and most disconcerting of all is the University of Iowa Piano Pedagogy Video Recording Project, where the performance doesn't even go to the "fine"!!!

I'm sure there is a general rule on this - but when I was working with my teacher I had just reached working out all the technical bits, and hadn't done the da capo when we finished lessons for the summer, and I hadn't realized I didn't understand this bit.

My gut feeling is that I should use the second ending - but gut feelings aren't always right!

Thanks in advance for any advice you may have for me.
_________________________

XVIII-XLII
Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard. BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

Top
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2110958 - 07/01/13 02:41 AM Re: da capo al fine senza ripetizione - 1st or 2nd ending? [Re: casinitaly]
Gary D. Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 5076
Loc: South Florida
If you know that d.c. al fine senza ripetizione = go back to the beginning and start at "the top", then go to the end without repetitions, you already know everything that anyone else knows. So just use your own musical judgment, or go by what sounds best to you. If taking the first endings causes you to repeat material, go to the second endings. If the final second ending (wherever you see the word "fine") will take you to a spot or measure that sounds final, just do that.

Perhaps someone else knows the music you are talking about. Usually skipping repeats involves skipping 1st endings.
_________________________
Piano Teacher

Top
#2110961 - 07/01/13 02:57 AM Re: da capo al fine senza ripetizione - 1st or 2nd ending? [Re: Gary D.]
casinitaly Offline

Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 6290
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
If you know that d.c. al fine senza ripetizione = go back to the beginning and start at "the top", then go to the end without repetitions, you already know everything that anyone else knows. So just use your own musical judgment, or go by what sounds best to you. If taking the first endings causes you to repeat material, go to the second endings. If the final second ending (wherever you see the word "fine") will take you to a spot or measure that sounds final, just do that.

Perhaps someone else knows the music you are talking about. Usually skipping repeats involves skipping 1st endings.


Note: Bold face and underlining are my additions.

Thank you Gary.
Both the first and the second first ending both sound ok. I was looking for an online copy of the sheet music to link to but can't find one. I just wanted to make clear that the 2nd ending isn't at the "fine" point.

However, your comment "usually skipping repeats involves skipping first endings" is exactly the guideline I was looking for. I figured there had to be a general rule, I just couldn't remember ever having this situation before.
_________________________

XVIII-XLII
Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard. BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

Top
#2110976 - 07/01/13 03:56 AM Re: da capo al fine senza ripetizione - 1st or 2nd ending? [Re: casinitaly]
Gary D. Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 5076
Loc: South Florida
Theoretically "fine" should mark the end, so wherever that is, and it should be notated exactly, should tell you the ending point.

I believe I would know exactly what you need to do if I saw the music, and most likely there will be others here who will say the same thing. smile
_________________________
Piano Teacher

Top
#2110981 - 07/01/13 04:30 AM Re: da capo al fine senza ripetizione - 1st or 2nd ending? [Re: casinitaly]
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 1389
Loc: Cameron Park, California
The piece can be found on page 9 of http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/0/0a/IMSLP51556-PMLP02707-RS67.pdf

with the mentioned University of Iowa Piano Pedagogy Video Recording Project here:
_________________________
Bernhard - Always Have a Plan

Top
#2110996 - 07/01/13 05:55 AM Re: da capo al fine senza ripetizione - 1st or 2nd ending? [Re: casinitaly]
Gary D. Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 5076
Loc: South Florida
The directions:

Vom Anfang ohne Wiederholung bis zim Schluss

From the beginning without repeat till the "closing" (end).

Which is no help.

No one knows where to end it because it is in the key of A minor. At the point where it says "Schluss" it cadences to C major (implied), relative major. But you have to stop on the 2nd beat (counting in 6), because it moves to E, dominant, and you can't stop there.

A lot of people are going to say, "Screw it, I'm going to end at the end of the page, where there is a final A minor chord."

"Dog's breakfast", as my Ozie friends say!
_________________________
Piano Teacher

Top
#2111005 - 07/01/13 06:18 AM Re: da capo al fine senza ripetizione - 1st or 2nd ending? [Re: casinitaly]
casinitaly Offline

Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 6290
Loc: Italy
Thanks Bobpickle.

In my copy the "fine" is not where "schulss" shows in the link you provided - but the link you gave does explain why the Iowa U guy finished where he did..... In my copy the "fine" is just before the 32nd notes.


I think it sounds very very odd to end on the schulss as marked ---- because as Gary says,(far more articulately that I'm able to) the sound of the music implies that you are moving into something, not stopping.

So......as my Italian friends would say, with a shrugging of shoulders "boh!" . (A sound effect for "who knows".)

Thanks again!
_________________________

XVIII-XLII
Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard. BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

Top

Moderator:  Ken Knapp 
What's Hot!!
Italy Members - Please Check In
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
(ad)
Calculator Looks Like Piano Keyboard
Calculator that looks like a piano keyboard
Piano Keyboard Calculator

New in the Piano World online store (PianoSupplies.com) now.
(ad)
Pianist Magazine
Pianist Magazine - Helping you become a better player
(ad)
Teaching Children Music
Teaching Music to Children
(ads)
PD - WNG - MH
Mason & Hamlin Piano Factory Tours
Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Nord Piano 3 anyone?
by CyberGene
08/29/16 08:26 AM
Suggestions for new pieces!
by gwhilton
08/29/16 07:31 AM
Distance learning part time degree in music
by zyxwvu
08/29/16 01:47 AM
*New* -The Music of Paul Desmond, How Sweet it Was
by Dfrankjazz
08/28/16 11:30 PM
Teacher recommendations in Chicago Northwest Suburbs?
by rich2k4
08/28/16 10:51 PM
Forum Stats
84,805 Registered Members
44 Forums
174,817 Topics
2,551,277 Posts

Most users ever online: 15,252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2016 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission