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#2111302 - 07/02/13 01:24 AM Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg
erichlof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 367


Edited by erichlof (07/02/13 01:25 AM)

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#2111319 - 07/02/13 01:54 AM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: erichlof]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Wow, very interesting. I wonder if production of the actual pianos will change.

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#2111349 - 07/02/13 04:11 AM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: erichlof]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
I'm guessing that there will be a slight surge in sales as many will want to secure an instrument before production gets shipped off to China with Boston and Essex.

Now then, if each of you were to donate a small sum to the Stores Foundation, perhaps I can afford that 90k beauty that's been sitting in the local gallery window for the longest time.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2111435 - 07/02/13 09:11 AM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: JoelW]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13764
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Wow, very interesting. I wonder if production of the actual pianos will change.


They say no, but we'll see.

Personally, I was surprised to hear the amount. $35/share seems a reasonable price for the stock, but I was surprised to hear the total market cap for LVB was only in the $450m range. (That makes it a small, low-cap stock.)

From what I've read, Kohlberg wants to focus on the international side of the company. I seriously doubt they'll do much with the New York factory, but I wouldn't be surprised if they opened a China factory and expand into Asian markets. The Essex pianos made in China have improved greatly in quality in the past few years, and the Chinese may very well be capable of building a piano worthy of the Steinway label at this point.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
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#2111468 - 07/02/13 10:08 AM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: erichlof]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6080
Loc: St. Louis area
We?
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2111518 - 07/02/13 11:23 AM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: erichlof]
Plowboy Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 2280
Loc: Huntington Beach, CA
They'll pull out of New York to harvest the capital in the real estate and move production to Mississippi, or more likely China, and Baldwinize the company. They'll extract everything of value possible. The Steinway name will become a luxury brand, think watches, luxury automobile editions, etc. They'll sell as much as possible in China, until the Chinese consumers figure out they're getting fraudulent goods.

They'll pay themselves million dollar salaries and bonuses, eventually declaring bankruptcy after they finish raping and pillaging the company.

Or maybe we'll get lucky and Samick will up the offer and buy them. Essex and Boston will move to Indonesia and the New York and Hamburg factories will remain operating, much like Seiler.


Edited by Plowboy (07/02/13 11:24 AM)
_________________________
Gary Schenk

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#2111542 - 07/02/13 12:05 PM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: stores]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: stores
I'm guessing that there will be a slight surge in sales as many will want to secure an instrument before production gets shipped off to China with Boston and Essex.

Now then, if each of you were to donate a small sum to the Stores Foundation, perhaps I can afford that 90k beauty that's been sitting in the local gallery window for the longest time.


And then I'll steal it!
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2111590 - 07/02/13 01:21 PM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: Plowboy]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1717
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Originally Posted By: Plowboy
They'll pull out of New York to harvest the capital in the real estate and move production to Mississippi, or more likely China, and Baldwinize the company. They'll extract everything of value possible. The Steinway name will become a luxury brand, think watches, luxury automobile editions, etc. They'll sell as much as possible in China, until the Chinese consumers figure out they're getting fraudulent goods.

They'll pay themselves million dollar salaries and bonuses, eventually declaring bankruptcy after they finish raping and pillaging the company.

Or maybe we'll get lucky and Samick will up the offer and buy them. Essex and Boston will move to Indonesia and the New York and Hamburg factories will remain operating, much like Seiler.


You seem somewhat pessimistic about the Kohlberg acquisition.
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#2111597 - 07/02/13 01:30 PM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: stores]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Originally Posted By: stores

Now then, if each of you were to donate a small sum to the Stores Foundation, perhaps I can afford that 90k beauty that's been sitting in the local gallery window for the longest time.


Time to schedule more concerts and recording dates, hmm? smile Intrigued to hear that D. 959 that you added to your rep. wink

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#2111606 - 07/02/13 01:47 PM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: Plowboy]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5286
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Plowboy
They'll pull out of New York to harvest the capital in the real estate and move production to Mississippi, or more likely China, and Baldwinize the company. They'll extract everything of value possible. The Steinway name will become a luxury brand, think watches, luxury automobile editions, etc. They'll sell as much as possible in China, until the Chinese consumers figure out they're getting fraudulent goods.

They'll pay themselves million dollar salaries and bonuses, eventually declaring bankruptcy after they finish raping and pillaging the company.

Or maybe we'll get lucky and Samick will up the offer and buy them. Essex and Boston will move to Indonesia and the New York and Hamburg factories will remain operating, much like Seiler.

Don't kid yourself. Steinway already is a luxury good. wink

The rest is exactly what capital investment companies are known for. Their goal is not to secure American manufacturing. Their goal is to increase shareholder value. If they move production to China, and double sales in China, it makes a heck of a lot more sense to the company and its shareholders than to keep production in America and sell half the number of pianos.

It is interesting that this will be their most famous portfolio company, and by far their most well-known brand. That could be good.. or bad.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2111624 - 07/02/13 02:13 PM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: erichlof]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
If they keep the name and don't change ANYTHING in the two factories, nothing real will change.

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#2111629 - 07/02/13 02:19 PM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: erichlof]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2406
Let's face it. 2 times 2 is four. So is the Hamburg Steinway a better quality instrument than the New York Steinway.

But, for the time being, I would never, ever, consider a Chinese (please no offense) built Steinway piano an equivalent quality piano to either the New York or the Hamburg Steinway.

I simply would not buy such an instrument, at that price level.

Let us hope that they continue to operate both the New York and Hamburg facilities.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

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#2111634 - 07/02/13 02:35 PM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: ClsscLib]
Plowboy Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 2280
Loc: Huntington Beach, CA
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib

You seem somewhat pessimistic about the Kohlberg acquisition.


Past experience with private equity investment groups.
_________________________
Gary Schenk

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#2111642 - 07/02/13 02:51 PM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: Plowboy]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2406
Originally Posted By: Plowboy
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib

You seem somewhat pessimistic about the Kohlberg acquisition.


Past experience with private equity investment groups.


This is NOT just a money making business. In fact it probably is not a wise business at this era.

How many of the Kohlberg people are in love with the sound of a Steinway piano? How important for them is the sound of a Steinway piano? Do they value the tradition?

Yes, in part this has to have a business aspect. But that must not be the main initiative. The love for making a high quality unique instrument should be the main objective.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#2111668 - 07/02/13 03:32 PM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: erichlof]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
There are a number of things that come to my mind when I think about this:

1) HOW BAD could the new "Steinways" be? We don't even know if the two factories will be shut down or not. (probably not is my guess)

2) Genuine Steinways still exist and TONS of them. There's no shortage. If cared for, every concert grand on Earth will outlast us all.

3) Steinway isn't the only fantastic piano out there...

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#2111675 - 07/02/13 03:46 PM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: erichlof]
Bob Newbie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 1549
This is beginning to sound like...buy Baldwin's pre Gibson era only, M&H before 1930's
etc..so now we'll have Steinway's pre Kohlberg era...

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#2111683 - 07/02/13 04:00 PM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: JoelW]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13764
Loc: Iowa City, IA
A lot of truth here I think...

Originally Posted By: JoelW
There are a number of things that come to my mind when I think about this:

1) HOW BAD could the new "Steinways" be? We don't even know if the two factories will be shut down or not. (probably not is my guess)

2) Genuine Steinways still exist and TONS of them. There's no shortage. If cared for, every concert grand on Earth will outlast us all.

3) Steinway isn't the only fantastic piano out there...
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#2111691 - 07/02/13 04:12 PM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: Kreisler]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2406
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
A lot of truth here I think...



Truth? Not at all.

There is a reason why Steinway is so popular than any other concert piano. It has somehow this unique sound that we can't find in any other brand. Most people love it inherently. It has some unique combination of things that touch our soul. A special character. A feeling of full satisfaction.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

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#2111699 - 07/02/13 04:22 PM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: erichlof]
kapelli Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 380
Loc: Poland
They would be immensly stupid, to just kill the sound and brand. However businesmanss, they are aware what is the strenght of the Steinway: not that this piano is in each concert hall, but the SOUND.

Everybody who is buying the art company, knows that there is something specific that one brand in strong, the other is not.

And yes, STeinway has something unique in it's sound. Perhaps the ability of being dark and bright at the same time, but according to the pianist will.

The other thing is, that without earning no company will survive.

Many of you are telling the story of Baldwin. OK, but Baldwin was known mainly in US. It's a big loss, but Steinway is a synonim of piano. Just go and ask random people "which piano maker do you know"
there are pepole which will tell "none" but the others which ARE NOT interested in music/pianos/pianism etc will say "Steinway... Steinwhatever... Something with S and sons"

To some poster above regardin Boston and Essex:
The first one is made by Kawai in Japan, the second in made by Yound Chang in China.

To the moderators:
Can you merge this topic with than oryginal one from the Piano Section?


Edited by kapelli (07/02/13 04:33 PM)

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#2111705 - 07/02/13 04:30 PM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: kapelli]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2406
Originally Posted By: kapelli
They would be immensly stupid, to just kill the sound and brand. However businesmanss, they are aware what is the strenght of the Steinway: not that this piano is in each concert hall, but the SOUND.

Everybody who is buying the art company, knows that there is something specific that one brand in strong, the other is not.

And yes, STeinway has something unique in it's sound. Perhaps the ability of being dark and bright at the same time, but according to the pianist will.

The other thing is, that without earning no company will survive.

Many of you are telling the story of Baldwin. OK, but Baldwin was known mainly in US. It's a big loss, but Steinway is a synonim of piano. Just go and ask random people "which piano maker do you know"
there are pepole which will tell "none" but the others which ARE NOT interested in music/pianos/pianism etc will say "Steinway... Steinwhatever... Something with S and sons"

To the moderators:
Can you merge this topic with than oryginal one from the Piano Section?


thumb +1

And on top of it, we are so lucky to have TWO unique sounds.
Hamburg and New York.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#2111734 - 07/02/13 05:16 PM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: Hakki]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5286
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Originally Posted By: Plowboy
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib

You seem somewhat pessimistic about the Kohlberg acquisition.


Past experience with private equity investment groups.


This is NOT just a money making business. In fact it probably is not a wise business at this era.

How many of the Kohlberg people are in love with the sound of a Steinway piano? How important for them is the sound of a Steinway piano? Do they value the tradition?

Yes, in part this has to have a business aspect. But that must not be the main initiative. The love for making a high quality unique instrument should be the main objective.

I think the keyword there is "should". Investment firms make money. And they often do so at the expense of the brand/company they buy. They will gut it, move it, cease operations, do whatever they have to do in order to make money.

Quote:
There is a reason why Steinway is so popular than any other concert piano. [...]

Marketing.. especially in the US market. wink

Originally Posted By: kapelli
They would be immensly stupid, to just kill the sound and brand.

Why? If they decide they can make the most money by gutting it, restructuring it, and/or repackaging the brand to sell it in foreign markets (like China), why would they care about anything else? Investment firms buy businesses in order to increase the value of the investment firm.. NOT necessarily the businesses they're buying.

Quote:
The other thing is, that without earning no company will survive.

True, but you're confusing the Steinway Co. with the investment firm buying them. wink
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2111818 - 07/02/13 08:24 PM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: Derulux]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 777
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Derulux

I think the keyword there is "should". Investment firms make money. And they often do so at the expense of the brand/company they buy. They will gut it, move it, cease operations, do whatever they have to do in order to make money.

Sadly, Derulux is correct. The piano's ability to "be dark and bright at the same time" is not at the top of Kohlberg's list of priorities. It boils down to: (Unit Price X Volume) - Costs. The fact that Steinways are the preferred choice of pianists throughout the world means nothing. If they could make more money producing 1000 pianos/year at a high price vs. 100,000 at a lower price, have no fear, they'd do it.

Boesendorfer and Yamaha may be licking their chops.

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#2111846 - 07/02/13 10:18 PM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: Pogorelich.]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: stores
I'm guessing that there will be a slight surge in sales as many will want to secure an instrument before production gets shipped off to China with Boston and Essex.

Now then, if each of you were to donate a small sum to the Stores Foundation, perhaps I can afford that 90k beauty that's been sitting in the local gallery window for the longest time.


And then I'll steal it!


I keeeeeeeel you!!!
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2111854 - 07/02/13 10:33 PM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: stores]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8828
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: stores

I keeeeeeeel you!!!

Anyone as pretty as pogo deserves the best.

Oh well, a Steinway has been on my Christmas list since I was a young lad, and when I broached the subject with my mum, let us just say it didn't go over very well.

Some people -mothers in particular- do not have a sense of humour. It was a pain in the arse just getting her to buy me the Tovey edition of the Beethoven sonatas. One would think I was asking for a rare early edition of Omar Khayyám's writings.
_________________________
Jason

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#2111868 - 07/02/13 11:03 PM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: argerichfan]
gooddog Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 4785
Loc: Seattle area, WA
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Oh well, a Steinway has been on my Christmas list since I was a young lad, and when I broached the subject with my mum, let us just say it didn't go over very well.
Be patient. I waited 45 years for mine and had to take out a second mortgage to do it. It was, of course, worth the wait and the huge monthly payment.
_________________________
Best regards,

Deborah

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#2111887 - 07/02/13 11:40 PM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: Hakki]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13764
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Marketing savvy also has something to do with it. And not all Steinway pianos are good.

I often wonder if people had similar access to Fazioli, Shigeru Kawai, Petrof, Bosendorfer, etc..., would they still prefer Steinway? In probably 98% of the halls, schools, and showrooms I've played in, Steinway was the only available high-end piano to try. To my knowledge, in my entire state, there are only two non-Steinway concert instruments in use. Drake University has a new Yamaha CFX, and Central College has a Fazioli. Both are amazing instruments.


Originally Posted By: Hakki
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
A lot of truth here I think...



Truth? Not at all.

There is a reason why Steinway is so popular than any other concert piano. It has somehow this unique sound that we can't find in any other brand. Most people love it inherently. It has some unique combination of things that touch our soul. A special character. A feeling of full satisfaction.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#2111892 - 07/02/13 11:47 PM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: erichlof]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
The Boosie Imperial 97-key piano at my school isn't as good as the Steinways at my school, but that could just as easily be the technician (or the piano faculty's preferences that they tell the technician).

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#2111975 - 07/03/13 04:03 AM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: gooddog]
drumour Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 849
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: gooddog
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Oh well, a Steinway has been on my Christmas list since I was a young lad, and when I broached the subject with my mum, let us just say it didn't go over very well.
Be patient. I waited 45 years for mine and had to take out a second mortgage to do it. It was, of course, worth the wait and the huge monthly payment.



I got mine two years ago, having saved up for 25 years. Man, is it beautiful.

John
_________________________
Vasa inania multum strepunt.

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#2111987 - 07/03/13 04:49 AM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: erichlof]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Grotrian Steinweg
(built in Germany)

Does anybody want to buy my 1912 Grotrian Steinweg upright? ... in top condition.

Offers above $2 million will be favourably considered.
“Who wants to be a millionaire ... I do”
(thank you Mr Sinatra ... from the movie High Society)

Yet another Chinese complot in the ointment ...
but then, there are such a lot of the dratted blighters.

Upon 2nd thoughts ... the price just went up to $3 million.
(I need the dough)

Kind regards, btb

PS The Kohlberg name sounds like a frosty mountain.

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#2112010 - 07/03/13 06:16 AM Re: Steinway is bought out... we now play a Kholberg [Re: btb]
Ridicolosamente Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 1456
Loc: Miami, Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: btb

PS The Kohlberg name sounds like a frosty mountain.
Sounds like a high bar release in men's gymnastics to me.

-Daniel
_________________________
Currently working on:
-Dane Rudhyar's Stars from Pentagrams No 3

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