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#2111404 - 07/02/13 07:34 AM What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment?
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Yes, this is an offshoot from the 4ths and 5ths Topic.

A name has been given to a poor 4th and 5th temperment: Reverse Well (although I don't know why a Well Temperment isn't also considered a poor 4th and 5th temperment...)

But what would you call a poor CM3 temperment, one where the chromatic M3s are evenly progressive, but the M6s are not and the 4ths and 5ths are unevenly tempered? I think of this as a Marpurg error for lack of anything other name. It is probably not a correct use of the term at all.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2111446 - 07/02/13 09:29 AM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: UnrightTooner]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
An unfinished equal temperament?
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2111454 - 07/02/13 09:49 AM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: UnrightTooner]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1726
Loc: Conway, AR USA
In the ever-evolving lexicon of piano tech-speak, it is hard to find labels or names for all of the variations. Temperament is either "equal" or it isn't.


Edited by bkw58 (07/02/13 09:49 AM)
Edit Reason: clarity
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Piano Technicę Blog

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#2111569 - 07/02/13 12:58 PM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: UnrightTooner]
TunerJeff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 469
Loc: Oregon Coast
Hmmmm. This actually something I see fairly regularly...but there is no name universally applied. As one who helps with PTG testing; what you describe is the result of someone trying to use a 3rds-ladder approach to tuning a temperament, and failing to connect the two ladders.

In other words; Each ladder is composed of very nice gradually increasing Major 3rds. There are two of them, F/A/C#/F and F#/A#/D/F#, but they are disconnected and any interval trying to reach between the two ladders will howl like a wolf!

You can't build the two ladders without a solid connection between them. You have to listen, and use, larger intervals to make sure they are related to each other.

If you want to hear what that non-related set of two beautiful 3rds-ladders that totally sound terrible when checked with 4ths, 5ths, or triad chords sounds like...just program your machine to the PTG Exam and put a 'Detune' onto the piano. This is EXACTLY what the PTG Exam puts onto the piano before an examinee enters the room. Sweet sweet thirds gradually ascending and everything else sounds terrible. You can hear the same effect by tuning a piano with an equal temperament, and then adding four cents to each note of one ladder, like 4+cents on F/A/C#/F, while leaving the other ladder untouched. 'Bleagh'. As Snoopy would say!

The name of your not-temperament is;
PTG Exam Detuning (or UUU on some programs, Untuning!)

Sadly; many people trying to build a temperament with only 3rds-ladders will also create such an untuning when trying to correct the detuned piano. Somewhere in the mix will be an inverted 4th or 5th (or both on the same note, A# or D are likely places to find that) and the two ladders of thirds, however lovely and evenly increasing, will be disconnected and horrible when you try to play MUSIC on them.

Does that help? I think a fair name would be 'Untuning!'

Untuning myself,
I sometimes am,
_________________________
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
Oregon Coast Piano Services
TunerJeff440@aol.com

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#2111582 - 07/02/13 01:13 PM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
Gosh ! my quiet tuning world collapsed !

I thought that once I had a nice ladder of Thirds everything else was "under control".

Could be called " broken rung ladder of 3ds"

There is another common version where the M3 progress nicely, but the octave is bad, this one is really common

"ladder of 3ds with unbalanced legs"


Edited by Olek (07/02/13 01:16 PM)
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2111837 - 07/02/13 09:41 PM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: UnrightTooner]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2099
Loc: Maine
I'd call it anything but "Late for Supper".
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David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#2111870 - 07/02/13 11:05 PM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: UnrightTooner]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1726
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Apparently a name has now been given to a flat treble and sharp bass: Equal Temperament. If this is true, then what shall we name a sharp treble and flat bass? _____________Temperament (fill in the blank).
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Piano Technicę Blog

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#2111978 - 07/03/13 04:08 AM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: TunerJeff]
Mark R. Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2006
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: TunerJeff
In other words; Each ladder is composed of very nice gradually increasing Major 3rds. There are two of them, F/A/C#/F and F#/A#/D/F#, but they are disconnected and any interval trying to reach between the two ladders will howl like a wolf!


Jeff, I'm trying to understand this. Where do G/B/D# and G#/C/E fit in? Are there not four ladders altogether? Or do you view G/B/D# as part of the first ladder, and G#/C/E as part of the second? In that case, might one speak of two whole-tone scales (one on F, one on F#) rather than two ladders of M3s?
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2112032 - 07/03/13 07:25 AM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: UnrightTooner]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Hmm, so this sort of error HAS been noticed. "Broken Ladder" makes me think of "Broken Arrow", the term for a nuclear weapon mishap. Like some sort of self inflicted disaster. I think we are getting close to a name. Work in a good pun or adjective or alliteration and we may have it!
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2112033 - 07/03/13 07:28 AM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: bkw58]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1709
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Apparently a name has now been given to a flat treble and sharp bass: Equal Temperament. If this is true, then what shall we name a sharp treble and flat bass? _____________Temperament (fill in the blank).


Reverse Equal?
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2112034 - 07/03/13 07:30 AM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 625
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Twisted Concertina Temperament.
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#2112052 - 07/03/13 08:47 AM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: rxd]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Apparently a name has now been given to a flat treble and sharp bass: Equal Temperament. If this is true, then what shall we name a sharp treble and flat bass? _____________Temperament (fill in the blank).


Reverse Equal?


Adopted!
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2112065 - 07/03/13 09:18 AM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Mark R. Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2006
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
To the OP: I'd suggest "Animal Farm Temperament".
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2112105 - 07/03/13 10:38 AM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: Mark R.]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
To the OP: I'd suggest "Animal Farm Temperament".


Oh, wow, do I like that. I don't think I've gotten to the bottom layers of hidden meanings for this one yet. Ooooooo.... "Honey, where's my box of old High School paperbacks?"
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2112106 - 07/03/13 10:38 AM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: Mark R.]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1709
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
To the OP: I'd suggest "Animal Farm Temperament".


It takes a lot of backtracking to make it more equal.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2112108 - 07/03/13 10:40 AM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: rxd]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
To the OP: I'd suggest "Animal Farm Temperament".


It takes a lot of backtracking to make it more equal.


Backtracking is not necessary at all. All equal temperments are equal. Some are just more equal than others!
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2112121 - 07/03/13 11:00 AM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: UnrightTooner]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1709
Loc: London, England
Reverse (Or)Well?
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2112126 - 07/03/13 11:16 AM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: UnrightTooner]
TunerJeff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 469
Loc: Oregon Coast
<<All equal temperments are equal. Some are just more equal than others!-Jeff D.>>

Ho hohohohoho! Nailed it there, boss. Nice one!

Re; 4-ladders?
Yes, Mark, there are more ladders in there, without a rung between them. I just took the first two, as I always think in terms of the 4/5th between F3-F4 at A#3/Bb3 and the cacaphonous noise and wang!-wang!wang! of the beating 4th/5th. It's my first indication that the nice sounding thirds just aren't related. There is no rung connecting 'em. Or maybe...we could just call it the Emperor's Temperament; if you can't hear the beauty, you aren't worthy enough to appreciate it!

Royally,
I remain,
Yr. humble and ob't svt.,
_________________________
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
Oregon Coast Piano Services
TunerJeff440@aol.com

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#2112133 - 07/03/13 11:28 AM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: rxd]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: rxd
Reverse (Or)Well?


Like I said, deeper and deeper layers. smile
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2112137 - 07/03/13 11:31 AM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: TunerJeff]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: TunerJeff
<<All equal temperments are equal. Some are just more equal than others!-Jeff D.>>

Ho hohohohoho! Nailed it there, boss. Nice one!

Re; 4-ladders?
Yes, Mark, there are more ladders in there, without a rung between them. I just took the first two, as I always think in terms of the 4/5th between F3-F4 at A#3/Bb3 and the cacaphonous noise and wang!-wang!wang! of the beating 4th/5th. It's my first indication that the nice sounding thirds just aren't related. There is no rung connecting 'em. Or maybe...we could just call it the Emperor's Temperament; if you can't hear the beauty, you aren't worthy enough to appreciate it!

Royally,
I remain,
Yr. humble and ob't svt.,



Then the problem isn't the ladders, it's the scaffolding between them. Careless Painter's Temperment?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2112153 - 07/03/13 11:46 AM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1940
Loc: Suffolk, England
Uneven, lumpy, bumpy ... cobbled, Cobbler's
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2112157 - 07/03/13 11:51 AM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: UnrightTooner]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1709
Loc: London, England
The equal beating will continue until morale improves.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2112169 - 07/03/13 12:15 PM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: rxd]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: rxd
The equal beating will continue until morale improves.


I have been reading a book about The Bounty...
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2112171 - 07/03/13 12:17 PM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: Withindale]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Uneven, lumpy, bumpy ... cobbled, Cobbler's


Hmmm...

Lumpy Half-Baked Cobbler?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2112715 - 07/04/13 10:04 AM Re: What do you call a poor CM3 Temperment? [Re: TunerJeff]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1726
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: TunerJeff
<<All equal temperments are equal. Some are just more equal than others!-Jeff D.>>

Ho hohohohoho! Nailed it there, boss. Nice one!

Re; 4-ladders?
Yes, Mark, there are more ladders in there, without a rung between them. I just took the first two, as I always think in terms of the 4/5th between F3-F4 at A#3/Bb3 and the cacaphonous noise and wang!-wang!wang! of the beating 4th/5th. It's my first indication that the nice sounding thirds just aren't related. There is no rung connecting 'em. Or maybe...we could just call it the Emperor's Temperament; if you can't hear the beauty, you aren't worthy enough to appreciate it!

Royally,
I remain,
Yr. humble and ob't svt.,




For a varieties of reasons - mostly recent - I really like this one suggest above:

The Emperor's Temperament
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Piano Technicę Blog

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