Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#2112535 - 07/04/13 12:53 AM Question about ornaments
Roland The Beagle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 245
Loc: California
I had a question about performing ornaments, specifically turns.

I can't find a straight answer about where they begin - before or on the beat. I've read that ornaments are supposed to follow convention and musicality as far as how they are performed, but I've also read that they also always begin on the beat. However, in one of the pieces I'm learning this summer, the turn sounding on the beat for the opening theme sounds a little ridiculous (although perhaps it could work...), and the recordings I have heard so far seem to start before the beat.

Also, later in the piece there are turns on sixteenth notes. The piece is not that fast, maybe quarter = 60-80bpm. However, it does seem rather challenging to play a sixteenth followed by a turn on a sixteenth (4x 1/64th notes) followed by another sixteenth smoothly and legato, even at this speed. Also, true legato isn't even possible without pedal here because the first 64th note is a repeat of the previous note (G followed by a turn on F aka GFEF followed by G). Is it at all proper to connect the turn to the previous beat and / or the beat after to give more 'breathing room'? A similar situation came up in a Bach piece where there was no clear guidance but tying it to the previous beat is what I ended up doing.

I should mention the turns I am talking about here are written over the beat. When it's written later then it's a lot easier because you are free to insert it wherever.
_________________________
Danzas Argentinas, Alberto Ginastera
Piano Sonata Hob. XVI: 34 in E Minor, Franz Joseph Haydn
Nocturne, Op. 15 No. 1 in F Major, Frédéric Chopin
Prelude, Op. 11 No. 4 in E Minor, Alexander Scriabin
Prelude and Fugue in G Major, Well-Tempered Clavier Vol. 2, Johann Sebastian Bach

Top
Ad 800 (Pearl River)
Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#2112964 - 07/04/13 07:29 PM Re: Question about ornaments [Re: Roland The Beagle]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18013
Loc: Victoria, BC
I could answer your question more surely if I could see the context of your query.

Traditionally, however, a turn is made up of four notes, as I am sure you know :
- the note above the principal note
- the principal note
- the note below the principal note, and
- the principal note.

If the turn is written directly over the note, the turn starts on the beat where that note falls, and not before the beat.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

Top
#2113013 - 07/04/13 09:59 PM Re: Question about ornaments [Re: Roland The Beagle]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6101
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
You may also find this book useful.
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


Top
#2113083 - 07/05/13 03:54 AM Re: Question about ornaments [Re: ChopinAddict]
de cajon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/10/13
Posts: 182
Loc: London, UK
Do I remember correctly being told that it depended on the era? That there was a tendency to be on the beat in older music and before the beat in later music?

When I started playing a lot of Bach, I seem to remember my kid's teacher explaining that to me.
_________________________
Yamaha C3X SH

Top
#2113293 - 07/05/13 03:00 PM Re: Question about ornaments [Re: de cajon]
outo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/12
Posts: 665
Loc: Finland
When it comes to ornaments it depends on the era and also on the composer. Sometimes it's not clear what a certain composer meant in older stuff.

Some of my urtext editions have discussions on the ornaments.

Top
#2113294 - 07/05/13 03:18 PM Re: Question about ornaments [Re: Roland The Beagle]
Roland The Beagle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 245
Loc: California
In this case, the piece is Rondo in C Major Op. 51 no. 1 by Beethoven.

The opening theme starts right here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hde6-oAorQ

In this theme, Richter is not beginning the turn on the beat, but before the beat. My recording of Alfred Brendel is the same - they treat it virtually identically.

The turns on 16th notes are here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-hde6-oAorQ#t=48s

I can't tell exactly what the rhythmic treatment is here because it's moving so fast, but it definitely does not sound like a turn is being played on a 16th note - instead the turn seems smoothly tied to the previous and following sixteenth notes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RXTxCzI040

In this version of the opening theme, it sounds a lot closer to the turn being played on the actual beat. And it does work because the pianist here is extremely precise, hats off to him. I wouldn't mind playing it this way. Whether it's aesthetically better is debatable - I think most listeners would prefer Richter / Brendel's treatment.

Here's a further picture to illustrate how I imagine it would be played:

http://i.imgur.com/12vB5mA.jpg

Is this right?


Edited by Roland The Beagle (07/05/13 03:45 PM)
_________________________
Danzas Argentinas, Alberto Ginastera
Piano Sonata Hob. XVI: 34 in E Minor, Franz Joseph Haydn
Nocturne, Op. 15 No. 1 in F Major, Frédéric Chopin
Prelude, Op. 11 No. 4 in E Minor, Alexander Scriabin
Prelude and Fugue in G Major, Well-Tempered Clavier Vol. 2, Johann Sebastian Bach

Top

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
ad (Casio)
Celviano by Casio Rebate
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Wow, check out this baby!
by Paul678
09/15/14 09:31 PM
Baby Grand new Hammer Knuckles.
by OscarL
09/15/14 08:30 PM
WEIRDEST passage in Chopin?
by Mark_C
09/15/14 08:16 PM
Cleaning my piano.
by pianosNpreschooler
09/15/14 07:24 PM
1981 SCHIMMEL GRAND
by mellie62
09/15/14 07:14 PM
Who's Online
125 registered (anotherscott, AmateurBob, BB Player, 41 invisible), 1309 Guests and 12 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76209 Members
42 Forums
157551 Topics
2314155 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission