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I have a Sony Vaio laptop, Win 7, Intel i5 2.27 GHz twin core processors, 4GB RAM. I am also out of patience with Microsoft. At present I have a few organs and harpsichords running through Hauptwerk. As the audio output/sound card are rubbish, I am using a FiiO E17 DAC from the pc to my ES7. The latency is not good at 23ms, barely playable when both hands are playing parallel fast semiquavers - difficult to synchronise them. My next step is to venture into software pianos - True Keys.
So, I am thinking of abandoning Windows and going Mac. My question(s) is/are about the Mac Mini. The 2.5 GHz i5 processor is presumably the same as/similar to mine. The basic RAM is the same at 4GB. Would the 2.3GHz i7 quad core be faster? Or slower? Is 4GB enough RAM? Would a Fusion drive significantly reduce the access times, thus possibly reducing latency? Will USB 3.0. over my 2.0 really be significantly faster? Any knowledge/advice on the different types of Mac: I am into music, obviously, but also photography and would use my existing monitor.
Any info and help will be much appreciated.
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Hello, You don't need another computer actually, you need an audio device with an ASIO diver, or maybe you can do without with ASIO4All which is a free generic ASIO driver helping achieving latencies below 10ms on recent machines. But you can get out and spend 500 [your currency] or more today and come back home to realise you face the same exact latency problem because of an improper audio driver... As the audio output/sound card are rubbish Oh and we're not in 1992 any longer, in fact before you could hear any difference in audio quality between your pc output and a really serious piece of hardware you'd need to spend some more grands on the problem and above all get some real experience in the audio production field. Any USB audio box with an ASIO driver would do, starting around 20$ or second hand, or for a serious gear from 100 to 500 maybe, and try ASIO4All first for it might address your problem as simply as that.
Last edited by In A Silent Way; 07/05/13 10:05 AM.
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Thanks for the response. I have ASIO4ALL, but the audio output is kaput and the soundcard in any case is awful. The FiiO produces a much better sound. I have downloaded an ASIO driver for the FiiO, but it isn't clear that it installed correctly. Windows of course just tells me everything's fine. Just as one part of the system tells me I have an Internet connection and another part of the system tells me no connections are available.......... The 2nd part of the system is always right of course, but then I already knew that.
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How fast is your disk running ideally you need a SSD hardrive or at the minimum a 7200 rpm and a separate drive to your system drive .These are recommendations from Synthogy Ivory and no doubt True keys would be the same.
Kawai CA99PE,True keys American,Ivory Grand pianos, Pianoteq 8 and Ravenscroft
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I haven't run TrueKeys at all, but I did switch to a Mac from PC a few years back and it really solved most of my problems in general, but specifically related to sound issues. It's safe to say that on a Mac if it doesn't work, it's user error, whereas with PCs, it sometimes was user error and sometimes it just didn't want to work.
I think going with the Mac mini would be perfect for your needs. My Macbook Pro is the same as the mini you're looking at (2.5 GHz, 4 GB RAM), and I have not experienced latency at all with Pianoteq (I tried the demo), and it was quite easy to get it set up and working.
private piano/voice teacher FT
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I have trouble connecting my piano to the desktop in order to run pianoteq. Seems to be the piano driver and the computer; with the laptop, 5yo now and half the power of yours, everything`s hunky dory . . I`ve never found out why.
"I am not a man. I am a free number" " "
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I am running my piano software on ...
Dell XPS 8300 with Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2600 CPU @ 3.40 GHz 8 GB ram with 64 bit operating system.
The rest of my audio equipment is shown below in my signature area.
I have never had even the slightest hint of a latency issue.
Don
Kawai MP7SE, On Stage KS7350 keyboard stand, KRK Classic 5 powered monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones
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In A Silent Way is right. You have to find out what's wrong before you try fix a problem. I have no problems with a Presonus audio interface. And it's one of the cheapest on the market. And it worked fine even on my lame PC laptop.
Your laptop is slightly better than mine. But I was running Windows XP, which runs fine in 2 GB RAM. You're running Windows 7 with a marginally better dual-core CPU and 4 GB memory. This might be adequate for Windows 7, but just barely.
Still, I'm inclined to think the problem lies with your audio interface.
Also, when you say the latency is 23 msec ... where and how was that measured?
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I have downloaded an ASIO driver for the FiiO, but it isn't clear that it installed correctly. I'm not familiar with Hauptwerk, but if you are running Hauptwerk by itself, in standalone mode, it should have somewhere that you can select what type of audio driver it will use, and also which physical audio device it will use. Make sure it is configured to use the ASIO driver, and then make sure it is using your FiiO device. (I realise that you're already getting sound from the FiiO, so you've already done that!). There should also be a way to change the ASIO "buffer size" - you need to check that too. Try to set it to something around 256 samples - the smaller that number, the better. (i.e - the smaller that number, the LESS latency you will have) EDIT: Actually, just testing ASIO4ALL in Pianoteq, I see that the device has to be selected using the ASIO4ALL control panel. In Pianoteq, I can select "ASIO" for driver, and then for the "device" I select "ASIO4ALL", and then in the ASIO4ALL control panel (which will ONLY be available when you are running your audio software, which in this case is Hauptwerk), you enable the device you want to use. (either the internal audio interface, or the FiiO). The ASIO4ALL control panel should be visible in the Windows task bar somewhere. FWIW, I once owned a USB headphone amp/DAC which didn't come with an ASIO driver, but it worked fine using ASIO4ALL. Greg.
Last edited by sullivang; 07/05/13 06:44 PM.
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... I did switch to a Mac from PC a few years back and it really solved most of my problems in general, DeJaVue Kiss ms goodbye. No muss, no fuss, no bother with Mac. Just use it. The i7 is newer and the computer will last longer versus constant upgrading of speed etc. I would just get the Solid State drive. If you can afford it. Ain't cheap. The fusion drive is supposed to work good and a hybrid of SSD and physical. It should cut latency down on any heavy usage HD program like Ivory. I'm not sure about True Keys. It's much cheaper than an SSD. 4GB is plenty of RAM. You can always add to that later when it's much cheaper. USB 3.0 is significantly faster than 2.0. I have the lowest Mac mini with a 7200rpm hard drive. No muss, no fuss, no bother. I just use it. I had to keep cost at a minimum. Otherwise would have gotten a fusion drive. It has a better sound card in it than any PC I tried or my USB audio box. Anybody wanna buy a PreSonus USB audio box? That 27 inch monitor with the iMac. It is absolutely beautiful. I would have gotten that if I could have afforded it.
Ron Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon
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Many thanks for your replies. Re latency: as measured within Hauptwerk. Whenever I set the latency below 23ms the note struck just oscillates forever. Hauptwerk does see the ASIO4All driver but this does not drive the FiiO. I went for the FiiO because the audio output from the laptop is faulty - sometimes works, then one channel drops out, or the connection creates interference noise. The Pianoteq demo works fine with the FiiO, in fact I layered Pianoteq and the ES7 sounds: the slightly earlier attack of the ES7 worked well with the longer decay of Pianoteq, but I only like the Bluthner and it's a lot of money just for that.
I admit I am working on the basis that if a relatively simple sample set of a harpsichord struggles, then the complexity of large piano sample sets will tax the system much more. I also agree that the problem does lie with the audio output chain, but the FiiO quality really is so much better: playing MP3/YouTube stuff through the pc speakers is now bearable and playing WAV recordings (of the ES7) via the FiiO DAC through decent domestic equipment is a joy.
Greg: thanks for the pointers re "connecting" ASIO4All with the DAC. I wasn't aware that the ASIO control panel should be available once Hauptwerk is running. Might fix things.
Thanks also to those who reassure me that a Mac mini would be sufficient. If I can fix or alleviate the latency issue I can then look at the switch to a Mac in a more relaxed way.
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Something I don't quite get with Hauptwerk is that is gives (me) the same latency value whatever I load, harpsichord, 4 stop chamber organ, 3 manual organ.
I'm using the latest beta (beta 2) from the ASIO site.
I've never had an oscillating thing happen.
Assuming you're using the free version of Hauptwerk then you can turn the polyphony down to 256 when loading an organ and that will reduce the latency.
When you have Hauptwerk running you can access the ASIO control panel via Hauptwerk's audio options.
Have you tried asking on the Hauptwerk forum?
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ASIO4All works with the PC's native soundcard but due to a hardware connection fault, one channel only, with noises. No problem with latency though. I have never, ever, been able to see an ASIO control panel, whatever audio hardware/software I have used.
I have downloaded an ASIO driver for the FiiO E17 from the FiiO site. It all appears to install, but when checking - within the FiiO facility - it is greyed out as non-active. Hauptwerk sees ASIO4All (no latency)and outputs to the internal soundcard or the FiiO DAC, which seems not be being driven via ASIO (23ms latency).
I have now started to experiment with True Keys Italian grand. It sees ASIO4All, outputs to the internal soundcard, one channel, no latency and the only way it sees the FiiO DAC is via MME. When I configure True Keys for one mic, lowest polyphony, etc etc, it is barely playable: like playing a piano with a really heavy action.
I have read that ASIO4All will only work with one output device - in other words it will not see a second device, so I guess my FiiO DAC is the second device.
The degree of hassle, apart from the hardware issues with the laptop (another one is that the mains connection drops out and the PC dies) with all this is a major reason for thinking, forget Windows, go Mac
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Agreed - I think a Mac will be easier, but if you want to keep going..... ;^)
On my system, running Windows 7, the ASIO4ALL Control Panel should be visible either in the Task Bar, or in the "Show Hidden Icons" section of the Task Bar. (that little up-arrow icon that you click to show hidden icons. (again - it is only visible when ASIO4ALL is being used. There is no icon for it in the Windows Control Panel, unfortunately). The icon is a green "play" symbol. (right arrow thingy) If it's in the Hidden Icons section, I think you can drag it down into the main task bar area.
ASIO4ALL can only use one audio interface at a time, but it definitely supports more than one. You use the ASIO4ALL control panel to select which one.
When I change the number of samples in the ASIO buffer, from within an audio application (I'm using Pianoteq at the moment), I see a pop-up window appear, from ASIO4ALL, that shows the new buffer size.
I didn't know FiiO now provide an ASIO driver - that's great!
Greg.
p.s There's a new native low latency driver for Windows called WASAPI (available since Vista I think) but there isn't much support for it yet.
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Why not just buy 16/32 GB of RAM instead of much more expensive SSD ? It should be enough for ivory/galaxy/true keys to load all piano samples into memory. Not sure if Kontakt player supports it though.
Last edited by jarosujo; 07/08/13 05:05 PM.
Yamaha NP-V80 (sold) Yamaha DGX640 (sold) Kawai CL-36 Pianoteq Standard + Intel NUC DC3217BY + Sennheiser HD598 + Fostex PM0.4n + NI Audio 2
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Greg: it would be great news if the FiiO ASIO driver worked, but I can't get it to work ............. yet. ASIO4All does not appear in the hidden icons area, nor does it appear in the customize list, although Hauptwerk does - with the subtext of ASIO4All v2 Hauptwerk. The PC is just mocking me ........
WASAPI appears in the True Keys drop down menu - no device available - and I think I have seen, maybe used, WASAPI with Hauptwerk or perhaps Pianoteq demo.
jarosujo: my problem is with the audio output. When I use ASIO4All via the crippled audio port on the laptop there is no latency. (Just an awful single channel sound)
Many thanks for your responses. I'm just wondering if I dare uninstall all the ASIO stuff and re-install, risking the possibility of no audio at all.
I do get completely frustrated with Windows. Tidying up my c: drive - it's pretty full - it told me I had 60Gb free. On restart, having deleted a few more files, it told me I had 54Gb free. On the next restart it then informed me I had 60.4Gb free. Photoshop occasionally reverts to all the defaults, the wi-fi notification (via hidden icons) tells me I am connected, the Network control centre has a big red cross showing I am not connected. Etc etc.
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The problem with Windows is this: they make your life increasingly easier if you are a consumer - almost all decisions are made for you. Things happen magically and automatically. If a problem is encountered, it will go off and consult its own innards and if that doesn't work, its will call up its counterparts online to solve any problem you might have. Meanwhile, you just stare at the screen with an appreciative grin.
This works for almost any problem you might have as a well behaved consumer. But as soon as you want to create something, you need to start changing things, and making the conditions right - you need to lay the foundations differently.
It is at that point, when you start asking to see exactly what's going on and why, then the problems begin. The system is reluctant to show you what's actually happening, and to make decisions about how to change the system.
Even the filing system reflects this: thousands of files are hidden from view unless you change the system settings. Some file destinations, despite appearing in the directory, are simply non-existent when you follow the directory path. And when you do change the settings, Windows makes a bad face at you, suggesting that you my be making a big mistake that you'll regret it, and that they are disappointed that you're going over to the other side, to the banditti.
I think Apple is similar in this respect. Maybe even worse in that they do not tell you what's going on inside. The big difference is that with the Mac, for most of the time, if you're lucky, you do not need to know.
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Greg: it would be great news if the FiiO ASIO driver worked, but I can't get it to work It's great news for those that it does work for. ;^) ASIO4All does not appear in the hidden icons area, nor does it appear in the customize list, although Hauptwerk does - with the subtext of ASIO4All v2 Hauptwerk.
That "ASIO4ALL - v2 Hauptwerk" looks suspiciously like the ASIO4ALL control panel. Do you only see that text when you mouse-over a particular area of the Task Bar? If so, when you see that text, that means your mouse pointer is in fact over the icon for the ASIO4ALL control panel. Click it, and it should open the control panel. Here's a photo of my mouse pointer hovering over the icon for the ASIO4ALL control panel. You can just make out the text in the pop-up message that appears when I mouse-over it. (I don't know how to do a proper screen grab that shows the pop-up window as well - sorry) https://www.box.com/s/6o3lzgs9n4co1u9nbxxdThis is actually on Windows 8 at the moment (sorry), but it's the same on Win7. EDIT: Sorry - upon re-reading your post, it seems that you are ONLY seeing that text in the customise dialog box of the Task Bar. That's very strange - I don't understand how it could appear there, but not in the Task Bar proper. In Pianoteq, when I change the Audio Buffer Size, a larger pop-up window appears, with the title "ASIO4ALL v2 Pianoteq", and it too is emanating from the icon for the ASIO4ALL control panel. Please try changing the Audio Buffer Size in Pianoteq and see whether you get the pop-up. Greg.
Last edited by sullivang; 07/09/13 09:40 AM.
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Greg: delayed response as my internet connection went awkward on me - dropped out every 20 seconds, so I abandoned everything for the night. Also my external drives blew up: couldn't power up via the existing connectors, found a spare cable/transformer in the filing cabinet, plugged it in, there was a small bang and a spark ........ Hopefully the main external disk is OK as it has several thousand RAW files back to 2007 from my photographic trips. The backup is safely unconnected to anything just now, but may be my only copy of all those files at present.
Software pianos: yesterday I had another go with True Keys and this time found the ASIO4All control panel, which showed an HDMI port - never used - the Realtek built-in sound facility and the FiiO. However, only the Realtek was shown as active and the FiiO's status could not be changed in the control panel. No problem changing the parameters of the Realtek. What is even more irritating is that I have disabled the Realtek, it doesn't appear in the Windows Control Panel, yet True Keys happily puts out sound to the internal sound card if I select ASIO in the audio menu. (The TK audio menu has ASIO, MME, which gives access to the FiiO and latency, and WASAPI which provides no options)
I have deleted Pianoteq demo - need the disk space - but I never had a problem with latency using Pianoteq - indeed layered it and the native ES7 sound without any latency causing playing problems. This was via the FiiO. Layering TK and the ES7, via the same FiiO path, is of course impossible: the TK sounds appear to be arriving from the next street.
Many thanks for your help in this. It's much appreciated.
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Sorry to hear about your drive failures - good luck with the restore....
It's good that you found the ASIO4ALL control panel - well done.
Maybe the next thing to do is to de-install ASIO4ALL (just for good measure), re-test the FiiO ASIO driver, and if it still doesn't work, try to get help from FiiO.
Or get a studio-oriented audio interface with full ASIO support.
Or get a Mac.
Greg.
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(btw, it seems a bit strange to remove Pianoteq to save disk space, when it takes up only a few tens of megabytes, cf Hauptwerk & True Keys that consume tens of Gigabytes. Without knowing your exact config, it seems very unlikely to me that removing Pianoteq would solve a disk space issue)
Greg.
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Yes, I was thinking the same thing!
If you're removing Pianoteq in order to free-up disk space, maybe it's time to buy a new harddrive...
James x
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I deleted the Pianoteq demo along with a whole load of stuff I don't want. I was down to less than 50Gb on the internal drive with the 23Gb Italian grand to load ......... Until the other day I had 4 external drives, now only one, the back up drive which is powered via USB on the pc is available, thanks to power problems.
Yes, I need more (reliable) space and more reliable processing power. However, you know the one about when you are up to your waist surrounded by crocodiles you tend to forget that you set out to drain the swamp? That's how it feels!
Greg: I have uninstalled the ASIO stuff and re-installed. No change. I am now awaiting a support response from FiiO.
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So, do you now have 27GB free, after the Italian Grand load? If so, you have plenty of space for Pianoteq. (Pianoteq takes up an absolutely negligible amount of that space). I know you don't "need" it, but I was using to test with to try and help you, because it's something we both have. Don't worry about it for now though.
If you have re-installed ASIO4ALL, I didn't mean for you to do that. I meant for you to remove it altogether, to simplify your configuration as much as possible, to assist FiiO. If you're going to focus on getting the FiiO driver working (which I think would be a good idea), there's no need for ASIO4ALL, and there's a chance it will cause some kind of a conflict.
Best of luck....
Greg.
Last edited by sullivang; 07/11/13 07:12 AM.
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For all the talk of conserving storage ... don't we all know that a terabyte drive costs less than $100! Storage is not precious. If you're running short, don't clean up ... just buy more! (I wish the disk storage price model were applicable to my messy garage.)
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MacMacMac: OK for some. In the UK I have just been quoted £95 for a terabyte external drive, which is not an extortionate price here. £95 is a lot more than $100. My pension resources caused me to think long and hard about Ivory vs VintageD vs True Keys single vs Pianoteq, especially as all the Windows problems are pushing me to spend precious cash on a Mac - not just for running a software piano.
Greg: I have tried to re-install the FiiO ASIO driver, no joy. (I removed all FiiO "stuff", led to no sound whatsoever, so I knew nothing was getting in the way. Then restored the FiiO folder which had been driving the device. No further response yet from FiiO.
Meanwhile, I continue to recover from the hard disk problem. Yesterday I killed my mouse when I knocked it off the desk. It's been a hard week.
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And I assume you have also removed ASIO4ALL - ok - great. Greg.
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Yes, ASIO4All has gone. I will re-install Pianoteq demo to see what it shows in terms of options, but right now I am still making no progress on a temporary fix to get power to the hard drives in order to extract the data.
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What sort of Hard drive is it?
willf
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willf: can't remember, it's encased in a Dynamode caddy, USB 2.0. In fact I have 2, one 250GB and the other 500GB. What has blown is the power supply, which connects to the caddy via a 5 pin round connecter rather like an old DIN plug. Can't find any such AC adapters terminating like that on the net. Next step is to contact an old friend who may just have such a piece of kit I may borrow to retrieve the data and dump it on another drive which is functioning. Hopefully the power surge, or whatever it was, didn't zap the drive.
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willf: can't remember, it's encased in a Dynamode caddy, USB 2.0. In fact I have 2, one 250GB and the other 500GB. What has blown is the power supply, which connects to the caddy via a 5 pin round connecter rather like an old DIN plug. Can't find any such AC adapters terminating like that on the net. Next step is to contact an old friend who may just have such a piece of kit I may borrow to retrieve the data and dump it on another drive which is functioning. Hopefully the power surge, or whatever it was, didn't zap the drive itself.
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Update on the FiiO ASIO driver:
Quote "Thank you for your mail and support to FiiO!
So sorry to hear that it seems that the ASIO driver is not compatible with your computer. Because this ASIO Driver is still the beta version. If any inconvenience, please understand!
If you have any other question, please feel free to contact us! Have a nice day!"
I have emailed back to ask them if it is incompatible with Windows 7, or just my version of Windows 7 (which as far as I know is standard). If the former, when a driver for Windows 7 might be available.
Incidentally, I couldn't get it to work emulating XP either.
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What you will need to do it to take the HDD out of the caddy to see if it is an IDE or SATA drive. It is likely to be SATA. You can then put it in an appropriate caddy and connect it via USB - as it is USB hopefully bus powered. Your friend might have a suitable caddy. As you say hopefully the HDD itself is OK.
Last edited by willf; 07/17/13 05:50 AM.
willf
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Sandalholme: What a bummer. You must be getting sick of jumping through all these hoops, but is there any chance you could beg/borrow/steal an audio interface that does come with a supported ASIO driver on Windows 7, just to see whether it works or not? Also, what is the exact model number of your VAIO, and roughly how old is it? Other than that - "Have a nice day!". Greg.
Last edited by sullivang; 07/13/13 06:18 PM.
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OP
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Greg: further to the FiiO aspect, FiiO has now written to say it is a beta version and no, no forecast of when it will be officially available.
However, via another thread - re VI Labs - I was advised to change the max velocity to around 110 to get a better dynamic range, pp to ff. (I was getting either pp to mf, or mf to ff, depending upon how I pulled the curve in TK). This will, when I have time to tweak it, resolve this issue. I then played around with setting local control on - long story as to why I decided to do this - and found that if I set the ES7 to around half volume and the FiiO DAC volume to 26 (out of 60), set reverb off on the ES7, then I could play normally, as the action responded as if solely using the ES7 and the clean attack of the ES7 was followed seamlessly by the sustain/resonance of the TK sound. By a setting of 30 on the FiiO the latency was becoming audible, so it's a fine line between getting a fair amount of the TK sound and too much latency. My guess is that at present the sound is nearer a Kawai concert grand than the Italian. More experimenting to do, only had a few minutes for this, but I am now persuaded that for the meantime I can use the laptop to drive a sort of version of TK whilst waiting for FiiO/looking at alternatives. Not the complete solution, but real progress.
Meanwhile, this morning, the pc decided to present me with a 4:3 screen, scattering the desktop icons all over the place, whereas the main monitor I use is now spread beyond the normal landscape - can never remember if it's 16:9 or 15:9, so that bits fall off the side. What I do know is one is supposed to be an exact copy of the other, which it clearly is not.
Never mind, I can now go ahead with a Mac for my main work and park the pc as a driver for the ES7/TK.
Now, back to sorting out the hard disk problem.
Many thanks for your help, much appreciated.
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
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