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#2113533 - 07/06/13 02:22 AM Mozart piano sonatas
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4931
Loc: USA
I heard from someone that in Mozart's early years, he imitated Haydn. Around what K number would you say his own style became apparent? And when do you think his sonatas started becoming more musically mature?

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#2113562 - 07/06/13 05:46 AM Re: Mozart piano sonatas [Re: JoelW]
bennevis Online   content
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Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5524
I don't think Mozart ever imitated Haydn, despite his deep respect for the older composer. If anything, it was J.C.Bach he imitated - as he did in his earliest piano concertos.

I'd say his individuality came to the fore in K310 in A minor, where the notion of mere Sturm und Drang is totally transcended and subsumed into a unique Mozartian blend of uncompromising - yet ambiguous - tragedy, fury and pathos within a very classical style of piano writing. Haydn could never have written anything like this, nor Beethoven.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2113730 - 07/06/13 12:32 PM Re: Mozart piano sonatas [Re: bennevis]
Mark_C Online   content
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Absolutely true about K. 310 -- but I think (correction -- I know) grin that we can put it earlier than that. I don't think it would be possible to find any clear line, and so I wasn't going to try to find any 'starting point' since I don't think there is any. But you sort of eased the question by saying 310: I only need to see if I could say an earlier one.

And I'll say K. 284. While there are moments that we might think 'could' be Haydn (which I think is true of almost any Mozart piece), I don't think there's a whole lot that could be, and I think absolutely nothing in the last movement could plausibly be anything but Mozart.

OK, now how about what's earlier than that.... ha

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#2113771 - 07/06/13 02:03 PM Re: Mozart piano sonatas [Re: bennevis]
Thomas Williams Offline
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Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 62
Loc: NJ, USA
Originally Posted By: bennevis
I don't think Mozart ever imitated Haydn, despite his deep respect for the older composer. If anything, it was J.C.Bach he imitated - as he did in his earliest piano concertos.

I'd say his individuality came to the fore in K310 in A minor, where the notion of mere Sturm und Drang is totally transcended and subsumed into a unique Mozartian blend of uncompromising - yet ambiguous - tragedy, fury and pathos within a very classical style of piano writing. Haydn could never have written anything like this, nor Beethoven.

I'm not sure that Mozart imitated Haydn either. The two composers have quite different styles in general (for the same time period).

It's also worth noting that K. 310 is unusual among Mozart's sonatas -- for one, the minor tonality is not typical. I love this sonata...I need to take it back out and rework it. It's been too long!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-hvAs0rvMk

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#2113773 - 07/06/13 02:04 PM Re: Mozart piano sonatas [Re: JoelW]
beet31425 Online   content
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Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3836
Loc: Bay Area, CA
I don't think that even Mozart's first sonata sounds much like Haydn. It sounds like pure Mozart.

Of course, he knew Haydn and was influenced by him though. To see a specific example, compare the opening of Mozart's K.282 with the opening of Haydn's XVI:25. They're both in Eb, but the similarities don't end there....

-J
_________________________
Schubert Immersion: Bb Impromptu; C# minor and Ab Moments Musicaux; accompanying four songs (Suleika II, Rastlose Liebe, Du Liebst Mich Nicht, Im Fruhling); listening intensely to Die Schöne Müllerin and Winterreise

Chopin: first Ballade; Mozart: D minor concerto;

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#2113809 - 07/06/13 03:07 PM Re: Mozart piano sonatas [Re: beet31425]
bennevis Online   content
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Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5524
Mozart has a unique way of adding an accidental to a single note in an otherwise simple melody to bring a moment of uncertainty, or ambiguity, which is not to be found in Haydn or Beethoven.

For example, the melody in the famous slow movement of the Piano Concerto in C, K467 - no-one but Mozart could have written it. This sort of thing abounds also in his solo piano music. Not to mention his vocal music....
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2113850 - 07/06/13 04:42 PM Re: Mozart piano sonatas [Re: bennevis]
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4931
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: bennevis


For example, the melody in the famous slow movement of the Piano Concerto in C, K467 - no-one but Mozart could have written it. This sort of thing abounds also in his solo piano music. Not to mention his vocal music....


Please post a link.

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#2113854 - 07/06/13 04:57 PM Re: Mozart piano sonatas [Re: JoelW]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5524
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: bennevis


For example, the melody in the famous slow movement of the Piano Concerto in C, K467 - no-one but Mozart could have written it. This sort of thing abounds also in his solo piano music. Not to mention his vocal music....


Please post a link.



http://youtu.be/sHgFqHhE53g

Note the 'blues' notes, in both the 'questioning phrase' and the 'answering phrase'. Except that it doesn't sound anything like jazz....

The Romanza from K466: http://youtu.be/p_33zTtiWPA


Edited by bennevis (07/06/13 05:00 PM)
Edit Reason: link problem
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2113857 - 07/06/13 05:06 PM Re: Mozart piano sonatas [Re: bennevis]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4931
Loc: USA
Oh I see. This is what I thought you were talking about. A lovely trick that I know Chopin picked up on, yet I can't recall any specific pieces at the moment.

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#2113860 - 07/06/13 05:25 PM Re: Mozart piano sonatas [Re: JoelW]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6082
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
I wonder if early Mozart showed more influence of his dad than of Haydn. smile

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