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Topic Options
#541562 - 04/09/08 10:22 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
Ferdinand Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 943
Loc: California
originally posted by Pianojerome:
 Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ferdinand:
.
.
.
Lay can also be used reflexively, as in
Now I lay me down to sleep
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good point, though it's still a transitive verb requiring a direct object, as Bruce pointed out, even though that direct object is oneself.

What am I laying down to sleep? Me. I am laying *me* down to sleep. Though shouldn't it read, "I lay *myself* down to sleep," since, you're right, it is reflexive?
What you say seems right, that the reflexive is a special case of subject - transitive verb -object.
I think the "me" in place of "myself" is an archaic or poetic usage.

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#541563 - 04/22/08 04:31 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
80k Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/04
Posts: 126
Loc: Portland, OR
 Quote:
Originally posted by kluurs:
Took a while to get here - but they finally came today. I quickly looked at three of the sonatas I've recently been working on. It's a very fine edition and from my limited exposure to them, I'd take them over the Henle - more helpful information - excellent binding - though not sewn. The print is exceptionally clear - the best of any edition i have - and I have six others...

A lot of thought went into this edition - even the page turns seem to be in better places than I've seen in many other editions.

Since I'm a psycho I'm reporting before I've spent hours with the books - but I have to say my initial impression is this is a superb edition.

I'm going to spend some more time with it over the coming days - will let you know if there's anything else to say. [/b]
Thanks so much for reporting back.
I had followed this thread, but your post (which was the most important feedback in the thread) somehow got buried in the fascinating English grammar discussion \:D .

I may keep an eye out on the set for when/if it goes on sale. SheetMusicPlus had a sale on ABRSM and Peters editions last month, so hopefully they'll have another one soon.

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#541564 - 04/22/08 09:38 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
stevedavis1776 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 66
Yes, mine just showed up out on the front porch today. They shipped it in a bag that was sized to contain a small child, but fortunately only had the Beethoven package in there. Did anyone mention yet that not only do you get three nice-sized, very legible volumes of Urtext, but you also get three audio CD's that contain additional commentary on performance and techniques for deriving sound similar to what Beethoven would have been experiencing when he was writing? Really super-nice set. It's hard to call paperback editions of something heirloom quality, but seriously, if you've got a pianist in your familay somewhere who is serious, this would be something to bestow to them in a will. Only a hundred bucks, but just really nice. If you don't wish to die, you could always probably just buy it for them as a gift.

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#541565 - 04/23/08 12:12 AM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
80k Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/04
Posts: 126
Loc: Portland, OR
stevedavis1776,
Thanks for your feedback on it. I just found a sampler pdf on the Peters/ABRSM website, and it looks like a fantastic edition.

I'm still using my Schnabel set (which is beyond worn-out, and practically disintegrating before my eyes \:D ). I was leaning towards the Henle, but between you and kluurs, I am thinking this Cooper set may be the one to get.

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#541566 - 04/23/08 12:21 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
Gabe Racz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 119
Loc: Denver, Colorado, USA
I'd be interested in more comments from those who have received their copies. In particular, one complaint about the Henle edition is that it normalizes Beethoven's various articulation marks (dots, lines, and wedges) into dots. How does Cooper deal with this issue (since this is an area where it's hard to be sure what Beethoven wrote)?

Also, could you link to the sampler pdf? I can't seem to find it.
_________________________
Schimmel 190E EP 103330

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#541567 - 04/23/08 12:48 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
80k Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/04
Posts: 126
Loc: Portland, OR
Gabe Racz,

Here is the sampler pdf:
http://www.edition-peters.com/pdf/ABRSM_Beethoven.pdf

Cooper appears to take the articulation marks very seriously. There are definitely distinctions between wedges and dots, though I hope some of the owners of the set will chime in as well. Also, he has Beethoven's fingerings in larger text so you can differentiate them from the editor's fingerings.

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#541568 - 04/23/08 01:26 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
Mattardo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 1306
The problem with making a distinction between dots and wedges is that Beethoven wasn't always precise about notating them: he was usually in too much of a hurry to still the quill long enough to stop confusing his printers. I wonder if this edition gives it's wedges and dots as gospel markings or just editorial markings and if editorial, are they pointed out as such..

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#541569 - 04/23/08 02:23 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
80k Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/04
Posts: 126
Loc: Portland, OR
Mattardo,
Good point, although I would imagine Cooper was more than aware of this issue.

On p.7 of the sampler, he writes (regarding dashes and staccatos),

"The use of staccato dots is strikingly systematic in this movement in all sources, appearing on repeated chords and light scale passages while dashes appear on arpeggio patterns. The autograph score must therefore have contained some evidence for this distinction, and the engravers of the sources clearly believed it was significant and worth preserving".

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#541570 - 04/23/08 03:15 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
Janus K. Sachs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 1710
Loc: Betelgeuse, baby!
Ok, have new sources surfaced (the long-lost manuscript of Op. 106, for example) that this new edition takes into account?
_________________________
Die Krebs gehn zurücke,
Die Stockfisch bleiben dicke,
Die Karpfen viel fressen,
Die Predigt vergessen.

Die Predigt hat g'fallen.
Sie bleiben wie alle.

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#541571 - 04/23/08 05:30 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
Gabe Racz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 119
Loc: Denver, Colorado, USA
Thanks for the link to the pdf! This looks very interesting.

I'm curious too if there are "new" sources taken into account. I put "new" in quotes since the Henle edition, for example, is 50 years old (and that's the one I happen to have on hand for comparison). Not to mention that the source itself would be old, but would be newly discovered. ;-)
_________________________
Schimmel 190E EP 103330

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#541572 - 04/23/08 05:38 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
Janus K. Sachs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 1710
Loc: Betelgeuse, baby!
Here's the thing -- the new, ongoing Perahia/Henle edition of the sonatas will probably take a few more years to complete. Imagine if new sources surface during that time, and Perahia and Henle are able to take advantage of them! From a scholarly perspective, the Perahia/Henle edition wins!

Of course, I seriously doubt new sources will surface, but one never knows...
_________________________
Die Krebs gehn zurücke,
Die Stockfisch bleiben dicke,
Die Karpfen viel fressen,
Die Predigt vergessen.

Die Predigt hat g'fallen.
Sie bleiben wie alle.

Top
#541573 - 04/24/08 03:02 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
80k Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/04
Posts: 126
Loc: Portland, OR
I'm also looking forward to the Henle/Perahia ones. In this case, the Henle will probably be cheaper than the ABRSM, since I'm guessing Henle will keep the entire set within 2 volumes.

Anyone have any idea when the Perahia set will be released?

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#541574 - 04/24/08 03:30 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
Janus K. Sachs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 1710
Loc: Betelgeuse, baby!
 Quote:
Originally posted by 80k:
I'm also looking forward to the Henle/Perahia ones. In this case, the Henle will probably be cheaper than the ABRSM, since I'm guessing Henle will keep the entire set within 2 volumes.

Anyone have any idea when the Perahia set will be released? [/b]
Henle is releasing separate volumes for individual sonatas. Available so far are Op. 14 #1-2 (unlike the others, these two are in one volume), 28, 31 #1-3, and 101. Goodness knows when the complete set will be available, but at the rate they're going I wouldn't hold my breath.
_________________________
Die Krebs gehn zurücke,
Die Stockfisch bleiben dicke,
Die Karpfen viel fressen,
Die Predigt vergessen.

Die Predigt hat g'fallen.
Sie bleiben wie alle.

Top
#541575 - 04/24/08 05:03 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
stevedavis1776 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 66
One other cool thing about the ABRSM set that I didn't even realize the first few times I looked through them was that the commentary sections in the back of the volumes is bound separately from the rest of the book, so one can have a sonata open, and the commentary to various things from specific measures open as well. Just really, really cool.

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#541576 - 04/24/08 05:49 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
80k Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/04
Posts: 126
Loc: Portland, OR
stevedavis1776,

Do you find these volumes to be very useable for everyday use? Thin/light enough to carry around and put on the music rack, and easy to get it to lie flat?

I'm looking to replace my current Schnabel volumes, which are pretty big. I'm thinking at 3 volumes, the ABRSM might be easier to work with.

Janus Sachs,
Thanks for the info, regarding the Perahia set. It looks like I shouldn't count on the whole set being available anytime soon.

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#541577 - 04/25/08 06:58 AM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
jperiod Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 52
Loc: Columbia, MD
For those of you thinking about ordering the ABRSM edition from Peters publishing, I was told that it is out of stock and backordered with a three week delay. Demand must be higher than they anticipated.

JW

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#541578 - 04/25/08 08:41 AM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
mario 08 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Australia
Dear 80K

I have seen the edition which you speak of. They are very good. They are really the only edition to play Beethoven from as they are so precise and musically correct ( if there is such a thing possible ).

Bound editions do not stand up to the test of time. Bound editions are bulky, do NOT sit well on pianos ( Grand or Upright ). I always buy single copy editions as they are less cumbersome to work with.

The great thing about the edition of which you speak is the clarity of print and the consistencency re articulations , ornaments and explanations in the editorial comment. I find some of the other editions have slight variations in notes, the notation looks different which can be quite off putting to you when you are used to a specific type of notation.

Its an interesting topic of conversation
_________________________
Maurice

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#541579 - 04/25/08 03:06 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
80k Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/04
Posts: 126
Loc: Portland, OR
mario 08,
Thank you for the feedback.

I agree that many bound editions are cumbersome to work with. I have a Satie collection that is nearly impossible to play out of.

On the other hand, I have some large collections (all very old) that have sewn binding that are a joy to work with. I have some Schubert and Schumann collections that are decades old, where the glue binding has completely dried out, but the sewing has kept everything intact and still work excellently and lie flat on the music stand.

Unfortunately, it seems a lot of the newer publications (like this ABRSM one and the Henle ones) do not have sewn binding unless you buy clothbound versions. In fact, now that I think of it, it seems that nearly all of my very old editions (several decades old) have sewn binding... I wonder if the industry has gotten away from that over the years, due to cost?

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#541580 - 04/28/08 05:44 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
stevedavis1776 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 66
80k, yes, so far I have had no problems with them. I suspect that if I want to work with a sonata in the middle, I might well need to break down and buy one of those gadgets that keeps piano music open (haven't seen what I remember, which was a kind of extension for the tiny music rack you get on a lot of uprights). Or, more likely, I would gingerly open the book to the pages I needed and photocopy them without splitting the spine. They look pretty sturdy for paperbacks, but I am NOT breaking the spine on a 100 dollar set of books! :-)

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#541581 - 06/26/08 09:04 PM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM
jello_g Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/02
Posts: 214
Loc: Toronto, Canada
I'll be visiting the UK in the coming weeks and wish to view these books in hand prior to purchase. Which stores in the London area are most likely to have the set in stock?

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#2113542 - 07/06/13 03:28 AM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM [Re: 80k]
UberB Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/06/12
Posts: 28
Bump. Anyone got these? Are they any good? Do they stay open? The reason I ask is because there doesn't seem to be a consensus in this thread yet (not that I don't enjoy debates about "lie" and "lay"). My Beethoven sonatas that I bought from a random Chinese bookstore are falling apart and I thought I'd buy a good urtext this time. As was the case with the OP, I'm trying to decide between the Cooper and the Henle.

I have a question to anyone who owns the Cooper edition. Are the "thousands of corrections" actually of any significance? The preview link a few posts up was dead, but I looked at a few images in SheetMusicPlus and compared with my Chinese score; there were virtually no differences except a few wedges instead of dots, etc. That being said, I think I'm currently still leaning towards the Cooper edition because it's lot cheaper than the Henle. Amazon.co.uk has it for only 48 GBP; even including a shipping fee to the US, it's only about $88 where the Henle seems to go for $100+.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Piano-Sonata...+sonatas+cooper

Sorry for bumping an old thread but I want to see whether people's opinions have changed now that they've been using the scores for a few years. Thanks!

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#2113695 - 07/06/13 11:11 AM Re: New Cooper edited Beethoven sonata set from ABRSM [Re: 80k]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
I have these. They are fantastic!

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