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#2113737 - 07/06/13 12:50 PM Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
fnork Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1962
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
So, this guy wrote a couple sonatas, and probably a couple too many. I keep mixing them up! So, I've been listening to some of the old french pianists playing baroque, people like Marcelle Meyer and Madeleine de Valmalete. Here is the latter, playing a sonata I'd love to learn, but it seems that it is numbered incorrectly in the video. Does anyone have a clue which number it might actually be? Im not planning to go through the entire sonatas by Scarlatti just to find out....



What is the best solution whenever one runs into this kind of problem? Haven't been able to find a thematic index online, so far...

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#2113742 - 07/06/13 01:01 PM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: fnork]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6414
Loc: St. Louis area
It's K39. Just like the video is titled.


...or not.
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#2113745 - 07/06/13 01:06 PM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: fnork]
bennevis Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 6449
Maybe you were confusing the Kirkpatrick with Longo numbers?

Sonata in A, Kk39 or L391.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2113746 - 07/06/13 01:08 PM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: fnork]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6414
Loc: St. Louis area
Ok it's K24.
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Horowitz was awesome!

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#2113748 - 07/06/13 01:13 PM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: fnork]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6414
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: fnork
Does anyone have a clue which number it might actually be? Im not planning to go through the entire sonatas by Scarlatti just to find out....

What is the best solution whenever one runs into this kind of problem? Haven't been able to find a thematic index online, so far...


You don't have to go through all of them. Just confirm the key, which shrinks the catalogue greatly.
_________________________
Horowitz was awesome!

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#2113749 - 07/06/13 01:13 PM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: Damon]
bennevis Offline
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Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 6449
Originally Posted By: Damon
Ok it's K24.


Yep, the similarity is in the key and the 'machine-gun' flourishes grin. Kk24/L495
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2113750 - 07/06/13 01:15 PM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: Damon]
WinsomeAllegretto Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 832
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: fnork
Does anyone have a clue which number it might actually be? Im not planning to go through the entire sonatas by Scarlatti just to find out....

What is the best solution whenever one runs into this kind of problem? Haven't been able to find a thematic index online, so far...


You don't have to go through all of them. Just confirm the key, which shrinks the catalogue greatly.


Unless...it is played for some reason in a different key. One time I found a youtube video of an unspecified Scarlatti sonata, and it was in E I think. Later, I happened upon the same sonata, but it was originally in D. I wish I could remember which one it was.

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#2113751 - 07/06/13 01:19 PM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: WinsomeAllegretto]
bennevis Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 6449
Originally Posted By: WinsomeAllegretto


Unless...it is played for some reason in a different key. One time I found a youtube video of an unspecified Scarlatti sonata, and it was in E I think. Later, I happened upon the same sonata, but it was originally in D. I wish I could remember which one it was.


Period instruments may use a lower pitch - harpsichords for example, as well as fortepianos. Almost a semitone lower than A=440.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2113763 - 07/06/13 01:49 PM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: fnork]
fnork Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1962
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
Thanks for identifying the sonata, guys! I somehow always end up with these problems with the Scarlatti sonatas. And there are quite a few sonatas in A major, so I dont know how much it really helps to know the key...

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#2113768 - 07/06/13 01:55 PM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: fnork]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6414
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: fnork
Thanks for identifying the sonata, guys! I somehow always end up with these problems with the Scarlatti sonatas. And there are quite a few sonatas in A major, so I dont know how much it really helps to know the key...


It was the first one of eleven in A major. Since he wrote about a million sonatas, I'd say in this case, it helped immensely. laugh
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#2113770 - 07/06/13 01:58 PM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: fnork]
didyougethathing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 545
Loc: New York
I actually wrote a little Excel spreadsheet that quickly converts between K and L numbers, if anyone is interested.

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#2113802 - 07/06/13 02:53 PM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: didyougethathing]
bennevis Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 6449
Originally Posted By: didyougethathing
I actually wrote a little Excel spreadsheet that quickly converts between K and L numbers, if anyone is interested.


I've often wondered how small Kirkpatrick numbers can have such high Longo numbers.... grin

And whatever happened to Pestelli numbers?
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2113848 - 07/06/13 04:37 PM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: fnork]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 22604
Loc: Oakland
The Longo numbers, from the complete Ricordi edition edited (rather poorly) by Longo, are pretty much arbitrary. The Kirkpatrick numbers are compiled pretty much according to the one edition of thirty sonatas published in Scarlatti's lifetime, followed by the rest in the order they appear in the various collections of manuscripts, using Kirkpatrick's assumptions about the order in which the collections were compiled.
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#2113866 - 07/06/13 05:38 PM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: WinsomeAllegretto]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 20232
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: WinsomeAllegretto
.....One time I found a youtube video of an unspecified Scarlatti sonata, and it was in E I think. Later, I happened upon the same sonata, but it was originally in D. I wish I could remember which one it was.

Well, I remember! grin

Of course I can't be sure if this is what you mean, but I'd bet half a string of poloponies that it is, because it's a famous example.

I'm guessing that it's an arrangement by Tausig of the D minor, L. 413, which he transposed to E minor to go with his arrangement of the E major, L. 375. He called the set "Pastorale and Capriccio" and the pair used to be a pretty favorite thing long ago, till about the mid-20th century when it mostly died out. Here's a recording by Brailowsky from about 1000 years ago:


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#2113887 - 07/06/13 06:19 PM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: Mark_C]
WinsomeAllegretto Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 832
Well goshdarnit Mark C, that's impressive. smile

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#2113897 - 07/06/13 06:40 PM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: didyougethathing]
fnork Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1962
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
Originally Posted By: didyougethathing
I actually wrote a little Excel spreadsheet that quickly converts between K and L numbers, if anyone is interested.

wow really, that would be interesting to see!

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#2113951 - 07/06/13 08:54 PM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: fnork]
beet31425 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3980
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: fnork
Originally Posted By: didyougethathing
I actually wrote a little Excel spreadsheet that quickly converts between K and L numbers, if anyone is interested.

wow really, that would be interesting to see!


I did that too, one day a few years ago, and I was going to post it... but it turns out Wikipedia beats us all to is. Here's the correlation between K, L and P (?) numbers.

-J
_________________________
Goldberg Variations
Schumann: F# minor sonata

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#2114023 - 07/07/13 12:17 AM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: fnork]
gooddog Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 5017
Loc: Seattle area, WA
I promise I won't bring this up again, but I can't stand it when someone starts a sentence with the word "so". It is a conjunction and is used to join two phrases. I'll be quiet now. (Bruce, where are you?)
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Deborah

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#2114026 - 07/07/13 12:42 AM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: gooddog]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 20232
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: gooddog
I promise I won't bring this up again, but I can't stand it when someone starts a sentence with the word "so". It is a conjunction and is used to join two phrases. I'll be quiet now. (Bruce, where are you?)

Well, it seems to be sort of the new version of the colloquial "Well, ......."

I don't like it either. To me, it sounds stupid. But there's probably a lot that we'd think we don't like about the world of 200 years from now -- and those people will look back on how we lived and talked and wrote, and they'll be like, "How quaint." smile

Cliff's Notes: I think we have to get used to it.

BTW, "Well, ......" doesn't sound too smart to me either. grin

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#2114055 - 07/07/13 02:40 AM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: Mark_C]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18824
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
[...] and they'll be like, "How quaint." smile

[...]


So, "and they'll be like" is even worse than "So, ...." shocked
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#2114070 - 07/07/13 04:56 AM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: Mark_C]
bennevis Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 6449
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: goodd[/b
og]I promise I won't bring this up again, but I can't stand it when someone starts a sentence with the word "so". It is a conjunction and is used to join two phrases. I'll be quiet now. (Bruce, where are you?)

Well, it seems to be sort of the new version of the colloquial "Well, ......."

I don't like it either. To me, it sounds stupid.


Well, and I thought that using 'so' to start a sentence is a typically American thing. Like getting your dates in the wrong order (MM/DD/YYYY instead of DD/MM/YYYY as it's done in every other country), mis-spelling words wink by removing letters ('favorite' instead of 'favourite' etc). And, oddest of all, "pulling the trigger" on something - which I thought meant you shot it to bits because you detested it, but no, it meant you actually bought it crazy.

So, now that I've got clarification, can we get back to using 'practising' as a verb, not 'practicing', which is an adjective?
(As a practicing musician, I love practising on the piano) grin .
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2114079 - 07/07/13 05:44 AM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: gooddog]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8363
Originally Posted By: gooddog
I promise I won't bring this up again, but I can't stand it when someone starts a sentence with the word "so". It is a conjunction and is used to join two phrases. I'll be quiet now. (Bruce, where are you?)


It isn't only a conjunction; it's one of those multipurpose words that functions in many ways.

Check out definition #5 here -

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/so

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#2114095 - 07/07/13 07:46 AM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: fnork]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Correct me, if I'm wrong, but I believe "so" can be used not only as a conjunction, but an adverb, adjective, or interjection.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2114141 - 07/07/13 10:48 AM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: bennevis]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6414
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Well, and I thought that using 'so' to start a sentence is a typically American thing. Like getting your dates in the wrong order (MM/DD/YYYY instead of DD/MM/YYYY as it's done in every other country)


The 'typically American' thing is not caring what is done in every other country. smile
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Horowitz was awesome!

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#2114171 - 07/07/13 12:09 PM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: fnork]
beet31425 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3980
Loc: Bay Area, CA
As long as we're not talking about Scarlatti anymore smile , here's a thoughtful article on the emergence of sentences that start with "so":

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/22/us/22iht-currents.html?_r=0


-J
_________________________
Goldberg Variations
Schumann: F# minor sonata

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#2114184 - 07/07/13 12:33 PM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: bennevis]
WinsomeAllegretto Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 832
Originally Posted By: bennevis


Well, and I thought that using 'so' to start a sentence is a typically American thing. Like getting your dates in the wrong order (MM/DD/YYYY instead of DD/MM/YYYY as it's done in every other country)


I hate the way America does dates. When I was a kid, I always wrote it the other way, which makes so much more sense. Then just when I finally got used to doing it the month/day/year way, I went to England and got used to doing it the right way, and now I'm just all confused.

(However, I do like how America spells "favorite." It has less superfluous letters smile )

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#2114217 - 07/07/13 01:31 PM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: beet31425]
outo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/12
Posts: 1236
Loc: Finland
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Originally Posted By: fnork
Originally Posted By: didyougethathing
I actually wrote a little Excel spreadsheet that quickly converts between K and L numbers, if anyone is interested.

wow really, that would be interesting to see!


I did that too, one day a few years ago, and I was going to post it... but it turns out Wikipedia beats us all to is. Here's the correlation between K, L and P (?) numbers.


I just use this converter:

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/music/marinkyo/scarlatti/referenco.html.en




Edited by outo (07/07/13 01:32 PM)

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#2114219 - 07/07/13 01:34 PM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: beet31425]
jdw Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/04/11
Posts: 1195
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Funny, I thought the use of 'so' to start a spoken sentence had always been common in New York, where I grew up. So sue me. smile
_________________________
1989 Baldwin R
Currently working on:
Mozart, K 330
Debussy, La fille aux cheveux de lin
Schubert, Impromptu Op. 142 no. 2

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#2114232 - 07/07/13 02:24 PM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: WinsomeAllegretto]
Ferdinand Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 950
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: WinsomeAllegretto

...
(However, I do like how America spells "favorite." It has less superfluous letters smile )

Fewer. (Unless you mean the letters in "favorite" are superfluous to a smaller degree.)
We have Noah Webster to thank (or blame) for the spelling change.

Originally Posted By: Bennevis
...
So, now that I've got clarification, can we get back to using 'practising' as a verb, not 'practicing', which is an adjective?
(As a practicing musician, I love practising on the piano) .

Thanks, I never heard of that distinction before. So would this be correct?: "Dr. Terwilliger has left his practice, having practised otorhinolaryngology for twenty years."




Edited by Ferdinand (07/07/13 02:26 PM)
Edit Reason: afterthought

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#2114245 - 07/07/13 02:57 PM Re: Scarlatti AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA [Re: WinsomeAllegretto]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6414
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: WinsomeAllegretto
Originally Posted By: bennevis


Well, and I thought that using 'so' to start a sentence is a typically American thing. Like getting your dates in the wrong order (MM/DD/YYYY instead of DD/MM/YYYY as it's done in every other country)


I hate the way America does dates. When I was a kid, I always wrote it the other way, which makes so much more sense. Then just when I finally got used to doing it the month/day/year way, I went to England and got used to doing it the right way, and now I'm just all confused.


I guess you would prefer to say "24, Scarlatti, K" rather than "K24, Scarlatti" or "Scarlatti, 24K"? smile
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