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#2055304 - 03/27/13 07:45 PM How to Chose a Hygrometer
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
Anyone have any thoughts on how to pick a hygrometer? Web sites, models, brands, companies, features, accuracy, data logging, price range, stores that sell them?

I think I need to get one or two new ones. I would like to try to find one with data logging, temp., and relative humidity readings that's "accurate enough."

Thanks --
_________________________
pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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#2055406 - 03/28/13 12:09 AM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: pianokeys135]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
High-end scientific data loggers can cost many hundreds of dollars. For piano purposes, you can spend less than $100.- and get something with enough accuracy. Electronics are getting cheaper all the time. I have seen some loggers on eBay for about $30.- but I do not know how good they are. It is probably safer to go a bit above entry level.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#2055520 - 03/28/13 08:25 AM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
What about something like this? It doesn't have data logging, but it seems to have some other potentially useful functions which I don't really know anything about. It seems that it can test the moisture content of wood? If that's what it does, could that be useful?

Hygrometer +

Something like this would seem like a good bet for just temp. and humidity (if it had data logging).

Hygrometer
_________________________
pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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#2055553 - 03/28/13 09:44 AM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: pianokeys135]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2334
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Pianokey, personally, of the 2 you listed the second one would be the better buy if you are primarily monitoring relative humidity. The usefulness of the pin measurements on wood is not really applicable for a piano tech unless they are procuring wood for some project and its coming from a questionable source or if they were preparing a soundboard installation and wanted to confirm the dryness. The rebuilders I know use a hotbox for the soundboard prior to installation anyways and don't really need to check the wood.

Make note of 2 things when looking at the specs on these items. First of all, note the difference between accuracy/resolution/repeatability. Truly good scientific instruments list all three in their specs.

Some cheaper items coming from the pacific rim are interchanging accuracy and resolution on their general descriptions of products. A good example is a digital caliper that has a resolution of .0005" on the readout, but is built so loose and sloppy on the parts that you cannot reliably/repeatably get that measurement on an actual part.

The last thing to note is the difference on an accuracy spec which states "Full Scale (F.S)" or "Indicated Value (I.V.). There is a huge difference between the two. The first product you listed indicates +/- 3% accuracy on moisture measurement. Assume this is Full Scale because if it wasn't, they would have went out of their way to say so. The second product indicates +/-3% of reading. "of reading" is a laymans term for "indicated value".

Because the first product is full scale accuracy, 3% of its maximum reading (95%) is the amount that it can be out on any reading. eg. If the humidity is 30% this meter may indicate 27.2% or 32.8%. The second meter for the same humidity could indicate 29.1% or 30.9% because it is accurate to its indicated value, not its full scale value.

(added) I carry a sling hygrometer for these readings because it is fool proof and dead on accurate. The digital ones require the user to be intimately knowledgeable on how long it takes for the unit to get a proper reading. If you come in from a cold car to a home, the internal sensor and the casing around it can accumulate moisture/condensation and the sensor will falsely take a high reading because it has not cleared out that "micro environment" inside.


Edited by Emmery (03/28/13 09:52 AM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2055568 - 03/28/13 10:14 AM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: pianokeys135]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Don't depend (don't believe the reading) on the accuracy of any consumer grade hygrometer. Even a lab grade hygrometer is only as accurate as the specs say when it leaves the calibration test. In six months, it could be much worse. I made a sling hygrometer and used the standard formula to determine RH. Even then, the accuracy is based the accuracy of each thermometer, your ability to read them, and the method and timing of testing procedure you used. You might get plus or minus 3%, if you're lucky. Electronic, digital, consumer grade hygromemters are much worse.

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#2055576 - 03/28/13 10:29 AM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: Mwm]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2334
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Another thing to watch for is the programming/circuitry in digital products. The makers of products are well aware of consumers own "testing" methods and use programming in them to give a false sense of accuracy/repeatability.

A good example of this are the digital bathroom scales being sold. They know that consumers will test these out by stepping on and off them several times to see if it gets similar readings. Almost all of them use a patented circuitry that is timer based to repeat the exact same number if it senses a weight +/- its maximum accuracy. Lets say the scale has an accuracy of +/- 5 lbs on any reading. You weigh 180 lbs and step on the scale and it says 180. Put a 3 or 4 lb weight in your hand and step on the scale and it still says 180. Wait 5 or 10 minutes and then remeasure and it will show a new reading that is different. Tricky buggers who design and build these things.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2055587 - 03/28/13 10:45 AM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: pianokeys135]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6172
Loc: Rochester MN
Hi PianoKeys,

You might be going overboard in the philosophy of the needs in reference to the piano owner in relation to RH.

Actual moisture content of the wood is unnecessary data for the owner, as keeping a relatively stable RH is how the wood is kept at proper moisture level. The actual moisture content of the wood will take a very long time to affect, and only with an extended period of variance of RH, + or -.

Measuring dew point is also unnecessary, unless you are anticipating or creating a rain shower in your home.

Unless you have a need for scientific level measurement, the home units are just fine. My preference is for the electronic units as they calculate the moisture content of the atmosphere in relation to temperature. Remember, the temperature is necessary for the computation. This is the simple version of understanding, rather than getting overly technical in explanation. They are a proven commodity and will serve the purposes of the piano owner very well. You are only trying to keep an appropriate RH level over time and across seasonal changes.

Look for a meter with an accuracy of +/- 3% RH or better, and Temp of +/- 1 degree F or C. Remember you are looking for a target range, not an absolute in your room environment. A transient reading of 70% RH will not affect your piano. A consistent reading of 20% RH will affect a piano over time. That is months and not hours.

The memory feature will show you the highs and lows. With a clock/calendar, the memory will be more specific, but not actually needed.

Test the ones you already have. Take one with you into the bathroom and take a long hot shower with the hygrometer sitting on the counter. It should show a significant rise in RH. If not, replace it or both.

Don't over think this. It's a simple tool to give you valuable information.

Just my 4 cents. (inflation)
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2055899 - 03/28/13 10:09 PM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
Thanks for the info. I have a tendency to overthink things, so this is not unusual for me. laugh
_________________________
pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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#2059768 - 04/05/13 11:10 AM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
I put one of my hygrometers in the bathroom with the shower on hot the other day. It went way up and is back to normal now, so it seems to be functioning in some way (although I am not sure of the accuracy level). Also, I have two of them, and they give similar readings, for what it's worth.

Still researching though, but I've been preoccupied with shopping for pianos lately.
_________________________
pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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#2059778 - 04/05/13 11:28 AM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: pianokeys135]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1253
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: pianokeys135
Anyone have any thoughts on how to pick a hygrometer? Web sites, models, brands, companies, features, accuracy, data logging, price range, stores that sell them?

I think I need to get one or two new ones. I would like to try to find one with data logging, temp., and relative humidity readings that's "accurate enough."

Thanks --


Anything less than this will not be suitable for a professional technician or someone that really cares -- especially if you live in an area that has low RH part of the year.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#2059807 - 04/05/13 12:19 PM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: pianokeys135]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1253
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: pianokeys135

Something like this would seem like a good bet for just temp. and humidity (if it had data logging).
Hygrometer


Oops, didn't follow your links before my previous post. The above is exactly the model that I carry in my tool case. I will usually enter the current RH on my tuning invoices. If it is way out and the piano has no protection, I will usually have a brief informational chat with the piano owner.

(However, if I touch the piano and it is warm, I usually will find it directly on a heat vent or in front of a radiator. In that case, I refuse to tune until the acute issue is addressed)

Not sure data-logging is worthwhile in our usage. Just write it down if you want to keep a long-term record.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#2059877 - 04/05/13 02:46 PM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: pianokeys135]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6387
Loc: France
You dont choose an hygrometer, that is the hygrometer that choose you (usually)

I also refuse to tune (unless the customer pay me for )

I am gone ...


Edited by Olek (04/05/13 02:48 PM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2068231 - 04/21/13 08:52 PM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
Thanks for the comments everyone. I'm still looking into this, but I've been busy with other things lately - still trying to find a piano, etc. Seems like I may have to pick up a few different ones just to be safe. Maybe I will get one of the "sling" ones too.

eek
_________________________
pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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#2114194 - 07/07/13 12:47 PM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
Anyone have any thoughts on this temp. / humidity data logger? It's one of the only ones I've seen that's mac compatible, which I want, and it seems to be a pretty good unit. Also, you can have "NIST Traceable" certification done, to increase the chances that it's calibrated correctly. Not sure if the certification is worth it. They have other nicer units, but I think this one would be sufficient. One downside is that it seems like you have to buy the software and usb cable separately.

http://www.onsetcomp.com/products/data-loggers/ux100-003

Thanks!


Edited by pianokeys135 (07/07/13 12:47 PM)
_________________________
pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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#2114205 - 07/07/13 01:05 PM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: pianokeys135]
phacke Online   content

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 395
Loc: CO, USA
Originally Posted By: pianokeys135
Anyone have any thoughts on this temp. / humidity data logger? It's one of the only ones I've seen that's mac compatible, which I want, and it seems to be a pretty good unit. Also, you can have "NIST Traceable" certification done, to increase the chances that it's calibrated correctly. Not sure if the certification is worth it. They have other nicer units, but I think this one would be sufficient. One downside is that it seems like you have to buy the software and usb cable separately.

http://www.onsetcomp.com/products/data-loggers/ux100-003

Thanks!


Hello,
That is a well know brand. No experience with that particular model though--just cheaper/older ones in the line.

http://www.lascarelectronics.com/temperaturedatalogger.php?datalogger=375
is another good brand I have experience with, with free software (windows only though).

Best wishes-
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin

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#2114209 - 07/07/13 01:08 PM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
Thanks. I took a look at some by Lascar and General Tools as well, but they seem to only have windows software. There definitely seem to be more options for windows, but I would have to install a copy of windows on my mac first, and I'm not sure it's worth the fuss (or the money to buy a copy of windows).
_________________________
pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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#2114218 - 07/07/13 01:33 PM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: pianokeys135]
phacke Online   content

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 395
Loc: CO, USA
Hello, pianokeys135

I'll try plugging these things into my Mac (Hobo and Lascar). Often these logs can be imported as text files from such devices on to other platforms and opened with a spreadsheet program, but haven't tried yet in this case. I will report back in 3-5 days.

Best wishes -
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin

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#2114220 - 07/07/13 01:37 PM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: pianokeys135]
pianolive Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 322
Loc: Europe
The important RH values to look for are the max/min during a year. And then watch out for the lowest value. RH beyond 30% is harmful for wood. The cell walls may break and the wood starts cracking. There should not be more than 20% between the lowest and highest RH values during a year. So it is important to knoow the accuracy of your instrument.

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#2114225 - 07/07/13 01:57 PM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: pianolive]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6172
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: pianolive
The important RH values to look for are the max/min during a year. And then watch out for the lowest value. RH beyond 30% is harmful for wood. The cell walls may break and the wood starts cracking. There should not be more than 20% between the lowest and highest RH values during a year. So it is important to knoow the accuracy of your instrument.

I'm not quite understanding your statement of "RH beyond 30% ..." Do you mean higher or lower RH? Most manufacturers recommend 40-50%.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2114244 - 07/07/13 02:57 PM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: Minnesota Marty]
pianolive Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 322
Loc: Europe
Yes, 40% RH is optimal, that means that 30 - 50 % is acceptable and so is 40 - 60 % and even 50 - 70 %. Under 30 % is harmful for the reasons I wrote.
If the RH values differ more than 20 %, for example 40 - 80 %, the tuning stability will be suffering.
Here in the North we can have 15 % in the winter and 80 % in the summer, so you can imagine the problems we have.
I have installed quite a lot of climate systems.

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#2114329 - 07/07/13 06:15 PM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: pianokeys135]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1481
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I will just add that exposing a piano to three or four days of overly dry air will not damage it as quickly as five hours of overly humid air. Wood takes on moisture about five time as fast as it will release moisture. That is why the damps chaser with humidistat is the base line of humidity control even if you have air-conditioning. Because the air-conditioning can fail or be turned off if the residence is unoccupied for some days.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2114366 - 07/07/13 09:12 PM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: pianokeys135]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1253
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: pianokeys135
What about something like this? It doesn't have data logging, but it seems to have some other potentially useful functions which I don't really know anything about. It seems that it can test the moisture content of wood? If that's what it does, could that be useful?

Hygrometer +

Something like this would seem like a good bet for just temp. and humidity (if it had data logging).

Hygrometer


The first one listed is NOT a hygrometer, it's a moisture meter. If you want to drive the two pins into you nice piano, it will give you a fairly accurate reading of the wood moisture content but you won't know the relative humidity of the environment.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#2114374 - 07/07/13 09:42 PM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
Thanks for the responses. Yeah - I'll probably get a damp chaser when I get my next piano (hopefully next week or two), but I'm going to try to regulate the temp and humidity in the space as well to the extent possible, so I want to get a data logger to test out how everything goes over the course of the next year or so.

KPEM - I posted those two links a while ago - I think I'm going to go with a data logger now. Thanks though.
_________________________
pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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#2115333 - 07/09/13 08:31 PM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: phacke]
phacke Online   content

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 395
Loc: CO, USA
I wrote:

Originally Posted By: phacke
Hello, pianokeys135

I'll try plugging these things into my Mac (Hobo and Lascar). Often these logs can be imported as text files from such devices on to other platforms and opened with a spreadsheet program, but haven't tried yet in this case. I will report back in 3-5 days.



Short answer: no such luck.

The Lascar
http://www.lascarelectronics.com/temperaturedatalogger.php?datalogger=375
did not even show up in the Finder of the Mac on plugging it in.

The Hobo, http://www.onsetcomp.com/products/data-loggers/h14-001
I'm sorry, I could not even find the cable. It is not any standard USB on this model. We have been using this in immediate mode, not logging, lately.

You need the supplied driver software I suppose.

Best wishes -
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin

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#2115684 - 07/10/13 01:30 PM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: pianokeys135]
pianokeys135 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/08
Posts: 184
Loc: Greater NYC Area
Thanks everyone. I decided to just order this one, along with a cheaper model from General Tools (no data logging) for comparison. I got the lite version of the software, which was about half the price. I don't think I'll need the advanced features of the full software right now. I really just want to be able to make spreadsheets and graphs to get a sense of what's happening in the space.

http://www.onsetcomp.com/products/data-loggers/ux100-011
_________________________
pianokeys135
amateur piano player

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#2115808 - 07/10/13 06:42 PM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: phacke]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6387
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: phacke
I wrote:

Originally Posted By: phacke
Hello, pianokeys135

I'll try plugging these things into my Mac (Hobo and Lascar). Often these logs can be imported as text files from such devices on to other platforms and opened with a spreadsheet program, but haven't tried yet in this case. I will report back in 3-5 days.




Short answer: no such luck.

The Lascar
http://www.lascarelectronics.com/temperaturedatalogger.php?datalogger=375
did not even show up in the Finder of the Mac on plugging it in.

The Hobo, http://www.onsetcomp.com/products/data-loggers/h14-001
I'm sorry, I could not even find the cable. It is not any standard USB on this model. We have been using this in immediate mode, not logging, lately.

You need the supplied driver software I suppose.

Best wishes -





Hello, thanks for the links, the Lascar seem really excellent, and can record data for a very long time before you download it on a computer (PC, I guess)

Those equipment where more expensive a few years ago.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2116433 - 07/12/13 02:08 AM Re: How to Chose a Hygrometer [Re: pianokeys135]
phacke Online   content

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 395
Loc: CO, USA
Hello pianokeys135,

Looking forward to seeking and hearing all about the lucky piano to the lucky owner on the Piano Forum on delivery.

Best wishes -
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin

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