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#2113418 - 07/05/13 07:59 PM Chopin op 10 nr 2
fnork Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1734
Loc: Helsinki, finland
Just picked it up again - clearly, a practicing version so far in other words.

http://speedy.sh/C8hFj/CD2I1400-1.m4a
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#2113425 - 07/05/13 08:07 PM Re: Chopin op 10 nr 2 [Re: fnork]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19742
Loc: New York
Can you post it without needing a download?

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#2113499 - 07/06/13 12:40 AM Re: Chopin op 10 nr 2 [Re: fnork]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6098
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
I would prefer to listen to it online too. However, you might have to convert it to another format for it to play properly online.
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#2113507 - 07/06/13 12:59 AM Re: Chopin op 10 nr 2 [Re: fnork]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6116
Loc: St. Louis area
Very clean, if a bit slow. Kudos, this is the first piece I ever attempted that actually hurt my hand to play it. I stopped at about half the speed you're at now. laugh
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#2113777 - 07/06/13 02:13 PM Re: Chopin op 10 nr 2 [Re: fnork]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Wow. This is an incredibly difficult etude. The tempo is a bit slow compared to Chopin's tempo marking of 144, but Hans von Bulow suggest doing it only around 114.

Did you know that Czerny wrote a parody etude of this piece? laugh

Also, have you ever tried Godowsky's LH version? :P

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#2113807 - 07/06/13 03:01 PM Re: Chopin op 10 nr 2 [Re: ChopinAddict]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6116
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Can you post it without needing a download?
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
I would prefer to listen to it online too. However, you might have to convert it to another format for it to play properly online.


This should work.

Fnork's Chopin

edit: The high ringing was also present in fnork's original format.


Edited by Damon (07/06/13 03:03 PM)
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#2113817 - 07/06/13 03:25 PM Re: Chopin op 10 nr 2 [Re: fnork]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2479
fnork:

One word of caution. Do NOT over do it. You can injure yourself. Not everyone has to play it up to tempo. Leave it here. It is okay.
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#2113825 - 07/06/13 03:33 PM Re: Chopin op 10 nr 2 [Re: Hakki]
fnork Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1734
Loc: Helsinki, finland
haha, wow, you're going through an awful lot of trouble with converting what is really just a practicing version! Prior to this recording, I tried doing it faster a bunch of times, but ended up messing up somewhere. By the time I recorded this, I was already somewhat tired after the previous attempts.

A friend who is playing all of op 10 had a masterclass with Anne Quefelec sometime ago, and she required my friend to play this piece through 3 times in a row or so. I don't know how helpful it is as such, and it can be dangerous in the long run. What it really makes you realise, however, is where your current abilities ACTUALLY are. You can play the 1st page almost up to tempo? Fine, but can you continue throughout the whole etude like that? And repeating it a second time? A third time? Pieces like this can fool you - its actually far from impossible to nail the first page in tempo...

OSK, yeah, thanks for reminding me of the Czerny one! Forgot about that one - have occasionally practiced the Godowsky but...well...its hopelessly impossible, of course. But I read somewhere that Rubinstein often warmed up with the Godowsky version!
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#2113826 - 07/06/13 03:35 PM Re: Chopin op 10 nr 2 [Re: Hakki]
fnork Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1734
Loc: Helsinki, finland
Originally Posted By: Hakki
fnork:

One word of caution. Do NOT over do it. You can injure yourself. Not everyone has to play it up to tempo. Leave it here. It is okay.

no worries, I know what I'm doing, and I'm only practicing it for shorter periods, after which I take a break to do something else. I know a fair amount of pianists that didnt estimate their abilities well enough with this piece and got injured...
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#2113836 - 07/06/13 03:55 PM Re: Chopin op 10 nr 2 [Re: fnork]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2479
Originally Posted By: fnork
Originally Posted By: Hakki
fnork:

One word of caution. Do NOT over do it. You can injure yourself. Not everyone has to play it up to tempo. Leave it here. It is okay.

no worries, I know what I'm doing, and I'm only practicing it for shorter periods, after which I take a break to do something else. I know a fair amount of pianists that didnt estimate their abilities well enough with this piece and got injured...


You know, Liszt could play it 20 times in a row at tempo with ease.

And be aware that that those famous pianists like Ashkenazy and similar can play it at least a couple of times in tempo without having any real difficulties. What you hear in these artists' recordings are real slower and safer tempos than their fastest tempos. So don't let them mislead you. As an example, just know that a recording of Gould playing it at 184 MM exists.

I am saying, I have heard enough of what I need to hear. Just leave it here, before it is too late, no kidding.
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#2113851 - 07/06/13 04:43 PM Re: Chopin op 10 nr 2 [Re: fnork]
D. S. F. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/10
Posts: 142
Originally Posted By: fnork

OSK, yeah, thanks for reminding me of the Czerny one! Forgot about that one - have occasionally practiced the Godowsky but...well...its hopelessly impossible, of course. But I read somewhere that Rubinstein often warmed up with the Godowsky version!


About the Godowsky left hand version...I have practiced this one more extensively a year or so ago and it was helpful in conceptualizing some things the right hand is going through in the original. But they cannot be parallel (I especially think the end of the middle section 4-5, 4-5, 4-5), and really I found Chopin's op. 10 no. 2 is more difficult to handle (not discounting the goal of the LH is 108, not 144, and that it's not workably a concert piece like the others). Alas, I still cannot play Chopin's original op. 10 no. 2...
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Music does not have to be understood;
It has to be listened to.
- Hermann Scherchen.

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#2113898 - 07/06/13 06:44 PM Re: Chopin op 10 nr 2 [Re: Hakki]
fnork Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1734
Loc: Helsinki, finland
Originally Posted By: Hakki
I am saying, I have heard enough of what I need to hear. Just leave it here, before it is too late, no kidding.

You do realize that I learned this initially ten years ago or so, have practiced it on and off since then and have actually been able to play it faster and cleaner and with less fatigue those times I've focused on it for longer stretches of time? I've had lessons on most of op 10 from very knowledgeable pianists since years, so, I think I know what I'm doing. Working on this one along with 10/10, 10/7, a few Rach etudes, trying to learn the remaining of the 12 debussy etudes (3 left!).
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#2113900 - 07/06/13 06:47 PM Re: Chopin op 10 nr 2 [Re: D. S. F.]
fnork Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1734
Loc: Helsinki, finland
Originally Posted By: D. S. F.
About the Godowsky left hand version...I have practiced this one more extensively a year or so ago and it was helpful in conceptualizing some things the right hand is going through in the original. But they cannot be parallel (I especially think the end of the middle section 4-5, 4-5, 4-5), and really I found Chopin's op. 10 no. 2 is more difficult to handle (not discounting the goal of the LH is 108, not 144, and that it's not workably a concert piece like the others). Alas, I still cannot play Chopin's original op. 10 no. 2...

I get your point I guess, I just got the feeling that the left hand is much less used to working with only 3-4-5 (and in this case, quite a lot of 4-5-only actually, due to the wide stretches, etc) than the right. Besides, quite a few of the fingering solutions are much more awkward than the original ones. But so far, I can't really tell which one that is nastier to perform - the original is by far better as music, for sure!
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#2113902 - 07/06/13 06:53 PM Re: Chopin op 10 nr 2 [Re: Hakki]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19277
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Hakki
[quote=fnork][quote=Hakki]fnork:I am saying, I have heard enough of what I need to hear. Just leave it here, before it is too late, no kidding.
I don't think he's learning this piece to play it for you.

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#2113903 - 07/06/13 06:54 PM Re: Chopin op 10 nr 2 [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19742
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Damon
This should work.

Fnork's Chopin

Thanks! thumb

Fnork: Real good for just a mid-stage thing! Lots of good and interesting things in there. It's great that you're making music with it -- none of the "I'll learn the notes first and add in the music later." grin

Our old friend Malcolm Bilson had a good story about that -- fictional, but it doesn't matter. ha
A student came in for his first lesson and played Chopin's B minor Waltz -- without the sharps, all of it just on the white keys. The teacher asked what the heil he was doing: "My old teacher used to say to learn the notes first and put in the expression afterwards."

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#2113908 - 07/06/13 07:13 PM Re: Chopin op 10 nr 2 [Re: Mark_C]
fnork Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1734
Loc: Helsinki, finland
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Our old friend Malcolm Bilson had a good story about that -- fictional, but it doesn't matter. ha
A student came in for his first lesson and played Chopin's B minor Waltz -- without the sharps, all of it just on the white keys. The teacher asked what the heil he was doing: "My old teacher used to say to learn the notes first and put in the expression afterwards."


Haha, thanks for reminding me of that story! Heard it ages ago but forgot about it... smile
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#2113950 - 07/06/13 08:52 PM Re: Chopin op 10 nr 2 [Re: Damon]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6098
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Originally Posted By: Damon

This should work.
Fnork's Chopin


It does. Thanks!! thumb
Good effort, fnork! smile
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#2114075 - 07/07/13 05:15 AM Re: Chopin op 10 nr 2 [Re: fnork]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2479
Originally Posted By: fnork
Originally Posted By: Hakki
I am saying, I have heard enough of what I need to hear. Just leave it here, before it is too late, no kidding.

You do realize that I learned this initially ten years ago or so, have practiced it on and off since then and have actually been able to play it faster and cleaner and with less fatigue those times I've focused on it for longer stretches of time? I've had lessons on most of op 10 from very knowledgeable pianists since years, so, I think I know what I'm doing. Working on this one along with 10/10, 10/7, a few Rach etudes, trying to learn the remaining of the 12 debussy etudes (3 left!).



You have already posted and continuing to post very wonderful recordings both here and the piano street forum.

Why get obsessed with this one? In the end it is not worth the effort. Nobody will say "Oh my God, he can play this etude!". There are zillions of students that play it right at this moment on every corner of the world. It is just about a one and a quarter minute etude. Therefore do not take the risk of injuring yourself. Don't get obsessed with it. Leave it.




Edited by Hakki (07/07/13 09:26 AM)
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

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#2114462 - 07/08/13 02:11 AM Re: Chopin op 10 nr 2 [Re: Hakki]
D. S. F. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/10
Posts: 142
I like the piece. I think it is good music, and I am impressed by a good performance of it. I love the musicality in this performance and I'd hate to see fnork leave the good things he's building behind...maybe add Paganini/Liszt La Campanella, Feux Follets, Der Erlk├Ânig and the Schumann toccata and then worry. Good pianist. Knows limits.

.
_________________________
Music does not have to be understood;
It has to be listened to.
- Hermann Scherchen.

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