Great story.

And I still love my naked king.

Ori
I don't know where to start after reading your manifesto of the rise and fall of Steinway in the coming years. I'd like to state that I am in agreement as for the majority of your obligatory comments relating to the present state of the restoration industry. I can relate 100% as for the rise in restoration standards and cost, eventually making a piano of lesser fair market value not feasible to restore. As stated the only exception being the sentimental family heirloom where one could care less as to their upsidedown status

I am definitely not in agreement as to the indirect eventual fall of the high end restoration industry. (Steinway in particular) As long as there are status conscious individuals in this capitalistic society, there will always be status symbols of the rich and sucessful.
I sell more Steinway grands than anyone on the west coast. After looking statistically at my stereotypical buyer,they are the doctors,lawyers,celebrities entertainment moguls, high level executives etc. Unfortunately it is not your piano teacher or aspiring musician more deserving of this level of instrument.Life is not always just and fair.
Even if one can acquire an instument that is of equal merit and sound at half the price,that accounts for a low percentage of the prospective Steinway buyer. You are defying human nature. Its called "Keeping up with the Changs"
The day that people put less value in the name is the day that Mercedez Benz,Bently,Ferrari ,Harley Davidson
Porsche call it quits and cease production because everyone is buying Honda Accords.
"Steinway grands also sound pretty good I've heard'

I think your perspective may be tainted in that you reside in a venue where the Steinway market, for new or restored is extra competitive. Where else could it be more competitive than in New York. Also the trend as to the rise in Steinway restoration prices and remanufactured Steinways has not hit the west coast. We have friends at Steinway ready to make the move when the market really accelerates which is soon. Maybe we're at the right place at the right time. When the economy is at a low and $ and times are tight,Iv'e noticed one thing the Steinway buyer still has $ and shops year around for that ultimate Steinway.
Steinway dealers are still thriving here selling at near retail. The only thorn in their side is high end restoration co.s like ourselves which capitalize on the savvy Steinway buyer.
When a piano professional forsees a change in the piano industry it becomes a on going battle to adapt or be left behind like many piano retailers that have bit the dust. Iv'e noticed when that change is forseeable it takes a long time for the retail buyer to change. Dealers are still selling 20-25 year old crusty Samick and Young Changs for more $ than brand new better Chinese grands
More to say but much later!
Ori, gotta alot of respect for someone that has built up a sucessful operation like yours.
Boy, I hope you're wrong in your predictions

Is it not the case that Steinway's market in the US consists of just 3% of all pianos sold in the US?

Great Thread.

Ori, you put a great deal of thought into these posts. And, I agree with your analysis.

The Internet IS eroding the Steinway "mystique".

Okay does that mean the whole new Steinway market share is now 2.97%?

Interesting responses from Ori and everyone else.

Let me just ask some more questions though.

1. Isn't this just an issue of price? How are new Steinways comparing against sales of other high priced pianos? Obviously this will exclude Estonia. How did Bosie and Fazioli manage in the same time period?

2. If Pianobroker is correct in the assessment that Rebuilders take from New sales, has this in fact been the case that rebuilders are selling more Steinways? In effect offering less expensive versions to achieve the same satisfaction of sound?

3. Is this assessment (by Ori) based mostly on a New York demographic with a lot more European influence? I say that because I don't see Bluthners, Grotrians, Steingraebers in Los Angeles so much. From talking to dealers, I hear how difficult it is to sell expensive pianos non-Yamahas and non-Steinways.

4. We hear here about the troubled times in the Piano industry. Is the observation about Steinway results more of a general US Piano market shrinking rather than a single brand?

It would be interesting to see both Ori and all parties have at it with these questions.

Jazzwee,

For this debate, US sales, where New York Steinway is marketing, is the market we should look at.

Bluthner had record sales last year (at least better than anything they sold over the past few decades), both in the USA and all over the world they have problems meeting with the demand and have just started construction of a large addition to their factory.


Bosendorfer’s US sales have also exceeded expectations last year, and 2006 showed a significant increase in US sales.


Karen,
Perhaps Steinway may not seem to be a big player in the market in terms of units sold, but it is the largest player by far when we talk about instrument that are sold for $40,000 and up on the retail level, capturing much of this market.
As I said, it is hard to asses the real level of drop in Steinway sales to the private market since it is lumped together with a successful institutional sales program and an increase of the dealer network…but even only a 10% drop in sales to the private market means a great opportunity for increased US sales by other high end manufacturers.

It is a domino affect…the more other high end pianos are sold, the more aware the public would be that there are other options for fine pianos, and the openness among the public for other instruments will increase.

This isn’t about the demise of Steinway, but about the opportunity ahead, and a possible brighter future to the high end industry, when piano buyers, composers and pianisits are not always pre program to think that the only taste of ice cream they should enjoy is Chocolate ice cream.
The possibilities for different tastes and tonal characteristics are endless, and I do believe that the music world as a whole, and piano students, techers and composers particularly will greatly benefit from the opening possibilities, as well as the audience listening to performances…

Maybe if we could know the number of Steinway rebuilds that were sold in 1990 and the number of new Steinways sold in 1990 and then add those number together we could compare that final number to the total rebuilds sold in 2006 added together with the total new Steinways sold in 2006.....maybe total the number of Steinways sold is growing rather than shrinking. We probably can never know since private sellers for example on Craigslist cannot be quantified in any market survey.....at least from what I know.

Here's another investement idea everyone can throw rocks at: the American dollar is falling. Some people actually do invest in pianos. Assuming they want to protect themselves against the falling dollar, they may want to include a hard asset denominated in a currency other than the US dollar.

The reason I say this, is that the market for new Steinways (from what I have read and from what I have been told by three Steinway separate dealers) is households with total annual incomes in the range of $150,000 to $350,000. I would think it is this same segment of the populace which would be a candidate for a Steinway competitor. This group is an investment-savy group. If they have listened to investment advice in the past several years about hard asset investing and about global investing in general, the smart potential purchaser may have this as a consideration (asset protection) in the back of their mind. It did occur to me....had I known of a good piano I could be denominated in the Austrailian dollar, I would have considered that. ....

Ori,
Thanks for a great post. Fascinating!!

I worked for a Steinway dealer for 27 years. Customers for that product come in a myriad of shapes, sizes, and situations. One can sort them into two groups, the players and the prestige buyers.

My experience is that many if not most of the prestige groups would rarely consider a used instrument. Many if not most of the prestige group will not shop other than the new Steinway dealer. If they are exposed to Fazioli, Bosie, Bechstein or other top tier brands it only comes from seeing them at the Steinway dealer. Since most S&S dealers do not carry these "competitive" brands, this rarely happens.

The players may have less disposable income than the first group. They are more apt to shop around and seek performance bargains. As they play, they are more apt to be persuaded to try alternative brands and find them superior.

I can see, with the information age, that probable S&S prospects are being exposed to alternative top tier brands on sites like this.

Ive been to the Steinway factory twice. Steinway is not going out of business anytime soon. Maybe other top brands will gain a little more market share at the high end especialy if the non Steinways are hyped up enough. Maybe hype can be as effective as great marketing skills. Many of the other brands have a big advantage over Steinway because its cheaper to build things almost anywhere outside of New York. If Steinway had to rent or pay off their factory the pianos would have to cost as much as Bosendorfers or even Fazioli's at least. But if Steinway did go out of business then I believe my "investment" would really pay dividends, the shortage of Steinways would push resale into the Stradavari zone.

Sorry, have to Digg out this 4 years old thread.

I am actually on similar situation as Larry was 4 years ago on making decisions.

I am budgeting about 10K to 15K for a piano for my daughter, in Canada, the price range allows me to buy a Brand new Yamaha U3 Upright or a Rebuilt Steinway 6'2" 1926 Year model Grand (saw a couple on Craigslist).

So, back to the Larry's original question, in 10~20 years, if I will be reselling the piano for an upgrade, shouldn't the Steinway Grand hold better value than the Yamaha U3 Upright?

Be very careful of the "rebuilt" Steinway. At that price I doubt that it is very good. Would expect it to need lots of work to be in reasonably good shape. But if an independent tech approves, it should be a bargain and a good investment. But I'd be very surprised.

Probably, but you should buy based primarily on what plays best right now. I haven't played many $10k used Steinways that were in great mechanical/acoustic/cosmetic shape. There were a couple that were still solid practice instruments, but nothing to write home about. (old and well-used)

These pianos do have a value to stores, techs, and rebuilders as a "core" (sorry, Tony!) instrument to be rebuilt. I'm guessing it's worth half the amount you quoted to people like this, or you could easily invest $15-30k into its restoration (if needed, which I assume to be true at that price).

Fully restored Steinway A's can be found anywhere from $35-55k in the US, depending on the extent and quality of the work, the case finish, and local market.

To the poster who brought back this old thread-- have you considered finding a young, but used U3/U5 instead? Seems like a reliable way to hedge your bets...

It is not a modest feat for a private party to sell an expensive piano. Any way you cut it, we're talking about a potential buyer spending a lot of money in a private transaction where there is no real resource for a lay person to gauge market prices. Sure people spend this kind of money on used autos, but 100,000's if not millions of used cars are sold every year, with plenty of sources for tracking resale prices. Real estate is sold privately but usually accompanied by an impartial appraisal by a professional (required by the lender). Not so with high end pianos. Here, even the most informed buyers is mostly in the woods. I venture to say even seasoned dealers of pianos struggle with finding the "sweet spot" for pricing used pianos.

That said, a savvy buyer has great opportunities to find a bargain piano, provided they know what they are buying. All they need is an unbiased and knowledgeable technician to inspect the instrument as to it's mechanical condition and up coming needs.

Remember, many, many posters on here are piano dealers. They all have horses in the race. Dealers of used pianos are going to knock new pianos. Non-Steinway dealers are going to knock new Steinways. Restorers are going to knock unrestored pianos. Steinway dealers are going to knock other makes. You have to expect that.

There are great deals out there for private party buyers. Pianos are not so fungible. They are big, heavy specialized items with a limited market and tough to trade and move around. People have to get rid of pianos for a myriad of reasons. You can get a great deal. Just make sure the piano is inspected by an expert. I hired two separate technicians to look at the rebuilt Steinway O I purchased before pulling the trigger. I think I bought my piano $5,000-$10,000 below market at the time. I am sure you can do very well also, especially if you limit your search to Steinways.

Thanks for all the replies.

What do you think a Steinway 1980 Model M worth if it's in good condition (not restored).

Thanks,

I'm sorry, but we can't really say without inspecting the instrument in-person. How the instrument was kept, used, and maintained matters quite a lot. You will want the technician who inspects it to pay particularly close attention to the action if it is original, as 1980 would still have the oft-mentioned teflon bushings (if I remember my history correctly).

Pianos age differently in different environments. Here in the upper midwestern US, they age prematurely without some extra humidity control effort on the part of the owners.

Have you looked at the classifieds here, or pianomart, or craigslist to find similarly listed instruments? That may give you an idea as to pricing-- 30 to 40 year old model M's aren't terribly difficult to find in my experience.

Week after week you see the same Steinways for sale. The prices being asked for pianos in decent (relatively speaking) to wonderful playing shape are not a level where buyers are pulling the trigger. Just check the "completed sales" on ebay. Peruse Craiglist and see the same ads week after week, Yamahas C7's, Steinway B's, O's, all of them. No Sale. Supply and demand dictates a buyers market right now and deals will be had, but just know what you are getting into.