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#2116869 - 07/13/13 06:04 AM winding up to the tuning pin
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 773
Loc: UK
How unusual is it to have the winding of wound strings go all the way up to the tuning pin? I've not seen that on any but my old Wornun. Anybody else seen it?


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#2116889 - 07/13/13 08:14 AM Re: winding up to the tuning pin [Re: chopin_r_us]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1429
Loc: KZ
Wrapping of copper this may be, but it's wrong. A winding should not cross a strip bar or agraffe. I was most surprised by a pins. It's some kind of medieval rectangle-harpsichord's pins
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A=440
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#2116892 - 07/13/13 08:23 AM Re: winding up to the tuning pin [Re: chopin_r_us]
Johnkie Offline
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Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 664
Loc: England
Early keyboard instruments often have windings that extend right up to the wrestpin. I still come across such examples from time to time, so from my point of view, it's not uncommon wink
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#2116896 - 07/13/13 08:36 AM Re: winding up to the tuning pin [Re: Johnkie]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1429
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
Early keyboard instruments often have windings that extend right up to the wrestpin. I still come across such examples from time to time, so from my point of view, it's not uncommon wink

But why? Is it a correct? It's a windings shall break during a tuning.
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#2116901 - 07/13/13 09:05 AM Re: winding up to the tuning pin [Re: chopin_r_us]
Johnkie Offline
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Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 664
Loc: England
It is simply the way things were often done with early keyboard instruments, and whilst your concerns may well be justified, modern restorations of theses instruments maintain the practice of extending the windings to keep specification within the original design. It should be noted that these examples are absolutely nothing like modern versions, and for that precise reason, many early keyboard players want to experience as close a sound as possible to that of previous eras smile
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and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
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#2116913 - 07/13/13 09:33 AM Re: winding up to the tuning pin [Re: chopin_r_us]
chopin_r_us Offline
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Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 773
Loc: UK
It made perfect sense to me and then - you know how you don't really notice things till you need to? I saw other pianos this week and how they don't! You would have thought it would have an effect but maybe not as much as the historical makers thought.

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#2116920 - 07/13/13 09:42 AM Re: winding up to the tuning pin [Re: Johnkie]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1429
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
, and for that precise reason, many early keyboard players want to experience as close a sound as possible to that of previous eras smile

Thank you Johnkie. Keep a traditions is noble theme
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A=440
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#2116921 - 07/13/13 09:44 AM Re: winding up to the tuning pin [Re: chopin_r_us]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1429
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us
You would have thought it would have an effect but maybe not as much as the historical makers thought.

May be
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#2116981 - 07/13/13 01:04 PM Re: winding up to the tuning pin [Re: chopin_r_us]
pianolive Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
The long winding does have effect on the IH. On basstrings the IH increase with longer bare steel endings.

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#2116983 - 07/13/13 01:07 PM Re: winding up to the tuning pin [Re: chopin_r_us]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
It's a shame you couldn't get those windings neater on the new strings. They will be pretty unstable like that. You need to lift the coils up, tap them together and squeeze the beckets tight (where the string turns the corner into the hole).
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#2117001 - 07/13/13 01:38 PM Re: winding up to the tuning pin [Re: pianolive]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 773
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: pianolive
The long winding does have effect on the IH. On basstrings the IH increase with longer bare steel endings.
What is IH?

and Phil, thanks, I'll try and do better on the next 20 strings.

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#2117023 - 07/13/13 02:15 PM Re: winding up to the tuning pin [Re: chopin_r_us]
pianolive Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
Inharmonicity

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#2117030 - 07/13/13 02:32 PM Re: winding up to the tuning pin [Re: pianolive]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 773
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: pianolive
Inharmonicity
Ah, so historical is potentially better?

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#2117036 - 07/13/13 02:44 PM Re: winding up to the tuning pin [Re: chopin_r_us]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Yes. That winding thing was quite common. Érard did it also both over the bridges and through an oversize agraf hole. I knew one, the strings had to be 140 years old and more, none of the signs of broken strings.

Please please let's not think for even a moment that those old makers knew nothing!!! A lot of solid technology has been forgotten. I write this as I listen to a 100 year old concert grand that, while it feels to have a confidential voice to the player, is currently filling the hall with a good quality huge sound.

If you really really want to do it right, all the pins should be facing precisely the same way. When that piano was new, all the pins faced the same way as the top pin on A#. (7oclock-1 o'clock) in your photograph. That was the hallmark of a good stringer. - still is..... In good work today, all the becketts face the same way.

Remember, with an oblong pin, the tuning hammer can only go on the pin one of two ways and when you consider the inconveniences of the other way... Only one way was left. That one angle better be convenient.


Edited by rxd (07/13/13 03:45 PM)
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"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2117039 - 07/13/13 02:49 PM Re: winding up to the tuning pin [Re: chopin_r_us]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 773
Loc: UK
Very interesting. So the A# (original) is the only correct one? frown

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#2117050 - 07/13/13 03:14 PM Re: winding up to the tuning pin [Re: chopin_r_us]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us
Very interesting. So the A# (original) is the only correct one? frown


Yep.

These pianos were always tuned with a T hammer up until later in their lives. The Oblong slot is always in line with the handle.


Edited by rxd (07/13/13 03:26 PM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2117061 - 07/13/13 03:34 PM Re: winding up to the tuning pin [Re: chopin_r_us]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 773
Loc: UK
Now that makes more sense. I've been tempted to bid on the antique ones that turn up on ebay. Something tells me my handle with exchangeable sockets may be an advance though.

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#2117073 - 07/13/13 04:02 PM Re: winding up to the tuning pin [Re: chopin_r_us]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us
Now that makes more sense. I've been tempted to bid on the antique ones that turn up on ebay. Something tells me my handle with exchangeable sockets may be an advance though.


I'm not sure about that, myself. The invention of the ability to put a lever on a pin at any old angle, while I welcome it, might just be directly or indirectly responsible for much sloppy tuning.


Edited by rxd (07/13/13 04:11 PM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2117081 - 07/13/13 04:19 PM Re: winding up to the tuning pin [Re: chopin_r_us]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 773
Loc: UK
I take it with a tuning hammer the wrist does the work. It may preserve the pins more.

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#2117271 - 07/13/13 11:32 PM Re: winding up to the tuning pin [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1429
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
I knew one, the strings had to be 140 years old and more, none of the signs of broken strings.
Please please let's not think for even a moment that those old makers knew nothing!!! A lot of solid technology has been forgotten. I write this as I listen to a 100 year old concert grand that, while it feels to have a confidential voice to the player, is currently filling the hall with a good quality huge sound.

Dear rxd, I am also inclined to believe that such a winding bass string is the technology setting of past times. I suppose it's the timbre sound more soft and muffled. But I do not know, I did not hear that. It's was made old technicians of theirs coordinated action They keeping that technology setting of a string
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A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2117289 - 07/13/13 11:59 PM Re: winding up to the tuning pin [Re: chopin_r_us]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1429
Loc: KZ
][/url] «"Walter" piano 1800» на Яндекс.Фотках]
[/url] « Left original pin» на «Original old pin» на Яндекс.Фотках][url=http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/maxim-tuner/view/554710/]
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#2117372 - 07/14/13 05:02 AM Re: winding up to the tuning pin [Re: chopin_r_us]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us
I take it with a tuning hammer the wrist does the work. It may preserve the pins more.


While it is possible to have other configurations made, With a lever or a hammer, the slot is always in line with the handle.

Where oblong pins are involved, it is almost impossible to deliberately flagpole the pin directly with any degree of control.

I learned a lot about tuning technique from tuning some old Broadwood grands with oblong pins early in my career. Even though these pianos were well over 100 years old at the time, having been tuned 4 times a year all their lives, there were no replaced strings and all the tuning pins were still in line with each other. They stayed in tune remarkably well.


Edited by rxd (07/14/13 05:07 AM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2117378 - 07/14/13 05:35 AM Re: winding up to the tuning pin [Re: rxd]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6369
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us
I take it with a tuning hammer the wrist does the work. It may preserve the pins more.


While it is possible to have other configurations made, With a lever or a hammer, the slot is always in line with the handle.

Where oblong pins are involved, it is almost impossible to deliberately flagpole the pin directly with any degree of control.

I learned a lot about tuning technique from tuning some old Broadwood grands with oblong pins early in my career. Even though these pianos were well over 100 years old at the time, having been tuned 4 times a year all their lives, there were no replaced strings and all the tuning pins were still in line with each other. They stayed in tune remarkably well.


But still possible to insert some twist in the pin.

I was alerted to be cautious with pins made in wrought iron as they are more brittle.

Also a too firm pin setting can be a problem if the instrument have to be tuned often (iron strings)
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