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#2117344 07/14/13 02:42 AM
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I'm refinishing my nitrocellulose piano.
The old finish is crazed.

Just want to verify a detail.

I'm taking real time to sand it, wherever it is actually loose and flaking. And where a flake has come loose, I'll sand the whole area to make sure I don't have a low spot.

But that is ALL I must do, correct?

Where the finish is intact, but crackled, I can respray over it, and the new nitrocellulose will melt into the old?
smoothing it out, restrengthening the old finish, covering over the crackles, restoring some gloss?

I'm more familiar with shellac, but a buddy is teaching me to spray nitro. First time working with it, and first time repairing an old nitro finish. Just wanted to double check this point.

If I don't have to sand the ENTIRE case, to just smooth it out with some new fresh coats-- that would be awesome.
Other areas, like the music desk, that show extreme damage-- I've sanded to bare wood and then restained to match before spraying.

Last edited by berninicaco3; 07/14/13 02:43 AM.
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The most critical thing you need to do is make sure all traces of wax furniture polish have been removed.

No other finish will stick over wax polish.

Here's a link to an article on how to remove polish - link .


Jim (amateur musician and composer..and piano tinkerer).

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Where it is cracked it may need to be stripped, in my opinion

a satin finish is easier


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How did you establish that the old finish was Nitro-celluose? If you take a flake of finish and put it in a jar with denatured alcohol and it dissolves it is Shellac not Lacquer.

Nitro-Cellulose is reduced at a ratio of 1 to 1 with reducer if you are spraying it. Make sure you use the right type and you cannot use reducer for acrylic enamel which is a common error.

Find Mohawk paints website and take a look at the catalog. They are based in North Carolina. They carry a wide variety of piano related finishing products.


J. Christie
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Originally Posted by Nash. Piano Rescue
...

Nitro-Cellulose is reduced at a ratio of 1 to 1 with reducer if you are spraying it. Make sure you use the right type and you cannot use reducer for acrylic enamel which is a common error.

Find Mohawk paints website and take a look at the catalog. They are based in North Carolina. They carry a wide variety of piano related finishing products.


M. J.Christie,

Can we suppose then you are not talking about the Mohawk 'Piano Lacquer' product, which does not particularly recommend reducing, or...?

http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/mhk_cds/product_pds/m610-130x%20piano%20lacquer.pdf

Which of their lacquer products do you like?

Best wishes -


phacke

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products to clean silicones are availeable.

sanding is said to be enough, but there is always a risk (craters)

cracked lacquer is stripped, then the whole finish is done again, cracks does not close when sprayed.



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I actually found Mohawk products by accident when I joined professional refinishers group. I can understand not reducing the gloss lacquer because you will lose sheen without adding hardener but I use two products of theirs mainly but I am curious about their gloss black and may try that out too.

The high build clear piano lacquer is awesome. The type of grain filling I do is old school and will wear a person out. It requires rubbing the surface of the wood with a filler caked burlap bag, after brushing, squee-gee- ing ( sherwin williams oil based Sherwood) until it is basically glass smooth and sometimes there will be a tiny spot missed. The clear Mohawk stuff takes care of that within 2 coats.

As far as the black goes I use the Satin Black colored Lacquer. I will get you a part number if you can't find it. It's reduced 1-1 and the air supply needs to be cool which is one of the secrets of using nitro-cellulose. If you don't have air you can get a tank of dry nitrogen and regulate that. Electric HVLP equipment will not work as the air coming from the hose is too hot unless you can run it through some bags of ice.

I bought 4 gallons of Mohawk products and then they called me to get me dealers rates which will save you like 12 dollars a gallon. They do sell 5 gallon cans but the hazmat shipping charge makes it cheaper to buy 1 gallon cans.


J. Christie
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Good top to stay away of warm air or too warm room with nitro. The product needs some time to flow on the part, too hot weather gives you a not so nice orange skin defect.
The products I use are cut with thinner. If not they are not nitro but polyurethane.

I heard that new types of nitro lacquer are now used with very little volatile solvents, but they need a cooking.


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Originally Posted by berninicaco3
I'm refinishing my nitrocellulose piano.
The old finish is crazed.

Just want to verify a detail.

I'm taking real time to sand it, wherever it is actually loose and flaking. And where a flake has come loose, I'll sand the whole area to make sure I don't have a low spot.

But that is ALL I must do, correct?

Where the finish is intact, but crackled, I can respray over it, and the new nitrocellulose will melt into the old?
smoothing it out, restrengthening the old finish, covering over the crackles, restoring some gloss?


I'm more familiar with shellac, but a buddy is teaching me to spray nitro. First time working with it, and first time repairing an old nitro finish. Just wanted to double check this point.

If I don't have to sand the ENTIRE case, to just smooth it out with some new fresh coats-- that would be awesome.
Other areas, like the music desk, that show extreme damage-- I've sanded to bare wood and then restained to match before spraying.


That may be all if your base coat is OK, but usually a hard base is sprayed to lock the grain, seal the wood, level, then sanded lightly, then the finish is used.

Undercoat can be polyurethane, that build up more than nitro


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An amalgamator will help flatten the checking.


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"An amalgamator will help flatten the checking."

Hi Gene is it the English name ? we use a fluid called "Egalisateur" (' Evener' , if I translate literally )

On Nitro high gloss lacquer or on Nitro lacquer that can be sprayed, then rubbed as French polish.
The product is some sort of solvent plus thinner and allow the lacquer to moisten, get smoother, eventually tense when the product dries. helps with blemishes, white clouds, may allow any captured moisture to go away on a recent finish)

Indeed it may be worth a try, (with a rubber, or spraying the product, it may be sold in spray cans or in bottles) but usually when the lacquer is cracked, any work will be at the surface, then the cracks will come back soon later.

Very often also the undercoat is not NItro, but Polyurethane. I also have find polyester as undercoat, and shellac as finish (in the end not pure shellac, but a mix of shellac and cellulose, that was sprayed then rubbed by hand on the polyester coat - German pianos 60's era)

It is important to test with alcohol, acetone, nitro thinner, to understand what is (what are) the original products used.

On polyurethane or polyester you may use any kind of lacquer, PU thinner can thin/cut NItro lacquer, also.

polyester will make a white scratch (and can be cracked)

Last edited by Olek; 07/15/13 02:49 PM.

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Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
An amalgamator will help flatten the checking.


excuse me but what is "checking" ?

Last edited by Olek; 07/15/13 02:48 PM.

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Keep in mind that the piano is a 1936 5'6" Kimball in a mahogany finish. None of the 'Polys' would have been used with a finish from that era. Since it shows signs of checking, it would indicate a lacquer finish, as opposed to shellac or varnish. There is no suitable way to use a solvent to 'soften or re-wet' a finish from this era to erase the damage. Spot refinishing can be attempted, but they are visibly noticeable (obvious) unless done by a very experienced craftsman.

The best results are obtained by stripping the entire instrument and then refinish with the choice of any of the modern materials.


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Originally Posted by Olek
Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
An amalgamator will help flatten the checking.


excuse me but what is "checking" ?


Cracking at the surface. Web search 'checking lacquer' brings up some images.

Best wishes-


phacke

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Originally Posted by Olek


On polyurethane or polyester you may use any kind of lacquer, PU thinner can thin/cut NItro lacquer, also.

polyester will make a white scratch (and can be cracked)


Hello again Mr. Oleg,

And, how do you repair such white scratch?

May I use this forum as a confessional?

When I was much younger, I enjoyed opening the lid of my aunt's brand new Schimmel grand piano to play it in all its grandeur (beautiful walnut, chestnut, or cherry, I don't know). This is European piano with the polyester finish, as you know. She used to keep a ceramic-base table lamp on a cloth on the piano top. So in removing the lamp to open the lid, one day, I put a terrible gouge. Yes, I can attest that there is a white scratch that results. Some polish on hand dulled the white, but obviously did't go far to fix it. I never had the courage to tell her, I put the cloth and the lamp back. Some years later I got married and I told my wife the story of the scratch. Then, my wife met my aunt and discussed the story as if my aunt already knew that I had done this damage (but at the time she didn't). Many years had passed however.

So how do you repair such white scratch?
(I am also curious if this is a professional service you provide?)

From this experience, and also with my parent's upright, I am of the opinion that lamps of any kind are one of the most dangerous things for the piano.

Best wishes -

Last edited by phacke; 07/16/13 12:09 AM.

phacke

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Hello Mr. JChristie,

Thank you for your comments. I have a follow-up question and a few things I can add.

>>"The high build clear piano lacquer is awesome. "
Is this a lacquer that you reduce 1:1 when you use?

>>"The type of grain filling I do is old school and will wear a person out. It requires rubbing the surface of the wood with a filler caked burlap bag, after brushing, squee-gee- ing ( sherwin williams oil based Sherwood) until it is basically glass smooth"

I though the above was the New School. The old school (my impression, at least) being that you apply a coat of lacquer that pops the grain, you then sand the peaks of the swelled grains, and repeat a few times till totally smooth.

>>"Electric HVLP equipment will not work as the air coming from the hose is too hot unless you can run it through some bags of ice."

I have read that, as long as you are not running it continuously, a long hose can help. Anyway, what is the symptom in the applied lacquer if the air into the gun is too hot?

Thanks again -

Originally Posted by Nash. Piano Rescue
I actually found Mohawk products by accident when I joined professional refinishers group. I can understand not reducing the gloss lacquer because you will lose sheen without adding hardener but I use two products of theirs mainly but I am curious about their gloss black and may try that out too.

The high build clear piano lacquer is awesome. The type of grain filling I do is old school and will wear a person out. It requires rubbing the surface of the wood with a filler caked burlap bag, after brushing, squee-gee- ing ( sherwin williams oil based Sherwood) until it is basically glass smooth and sometimes there will be a tiny spot missed. The clear Mohawk stuff takes care of that within 2 coats.

As far as the black goes I use the Satin Black colored Lacquer. I will get you a part number if you can't find it. It's reduced 1-1 and the air supply needs to be cool which is one of the secrets of using nitro-cellulose. If you don't have air you can get a tank of dry nitrogen and regulate that. Electric HVLP equipment will not work as the air coming from the hose is too hot unless you can run it through some bags of ice.

I bought 4 gallons of Mohawk products and then they called me to get me dealers rates which will save you like 12 dollars a gallon. They do sell 5 gallon cans but the hazmat shipping charge makes it cheaper to buy 1 gallon cans.


phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Toccata (G minor) BWV 915
(and trying not to forget the other stuff I know)
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Originally Posted by berninicaco3
I'm refinishing my nitrocellulose piano.

Where the finish is intact, but crackled, I can respray over it, and the new nitrocellulose will melt into the old?
smoothing it out, restrengthening the old finish, covering over the crackles, restoring some gloss?


Hello, berninicaco3 -

I feel like I have hijacked your thread. I have an amateur opinion on the matter.

To do a good job you have to do what Marty wrote, but of course you can spray new stuff on to old stuff (I see furniture fixers do this all the time) unless your new stuff has solvents that eat away at the old stuff. I think you have to test in a small area to see if the old and new materials have satisfactory compatibility if you want to go that route.

Best wishes -



phacke

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Egalisateur sounds like it does about the same job as amalgamator.
Not a cure but it helps.
I use a brush to work it and help persuade the damage to semi liquefy and spread/flatten.
More finish can be added to fill.
Checking is as previously mentioned.
The finish shrinks and cracks or checks develope.

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Egalisateur
Interesting word - derived from egalitarian - I suppose it fits the finish better than people.


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Originally Posted by phacke
Originally Posted by Olek


On polyurethane or polyester you may use any kind of lacquer, PU thinner can thin/cut NItro lacquer, also.

polyester will make a white scratch (and can be cracked)


Hello again Mr. Oleg,

And, how do you repair such white scratch?

May I use this forum as a confessional?

When I was much younger, I enjoyed opening the lid of my aunt's brand new Schimmel grand piano to play it in all its grandeur (beautiful walnut, chestnut, or cherry, I don't know). This is European piano with the polyester finish, as you know. She used to keep a ceramic-base table lamp on a cloth on the piano top. So in removing the lamp to open the lid, one day, I put a terrible gouge. Yes, I can attest that there is a white scratch that results. Some polish on hand dulled the white, but obviously did't go far to fix it. I never had the courage to tell her, I put the cloth and the lamp back. Some years later I got married and I told my wife the story of the scratch. Then, my wife met my aunt and discussed the story as if my aunt already knew that I had done this damage (but at the time she didn't). Many years had passed however.

So how do you repair such white scratch?
(I am also curious if this is a professional service you provide?)

From this experience, and also with my parent's upright, I am of the opinion that lamps of any kind are one of the most dangerous things for the piano.

Best wishes -


Hello, yes I sometime repair, polyester damage, small ones, white cracks can be hidden with car products (black wax) or black copal, or polyester but it is very difficult, more easy to repair chips than long streaks.

Products for cars can help masking the damage in frontal viewing, it may still be apparent with lateral light or view. A good cheap solution, coral varnish (hard) is another. French polish if well applied gives a good aspect for 20 years (if applied on a crazed poly or finish) then cracks show up again.

Last edited by Olek; 07/16/13 06:46 AM.

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