Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#2117605 - 07/14/13 05:20 PM Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay?
kcostell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 150
Loc: Atlanta, GA
As far as I can tell, the "standard" edition of C.P.E. Bach's "Essay on the True Art of Playing Keyboard Instruments" (the Mitchell translation) is still under copyright, but I'm curious if there's some other public domain translation in existence somewhere online.

Is anyone familiar with such a thing, or able to point me to a link?

Top
Ad 800 (Pearl River)
Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#2117606 - 07/14/13 05:26 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: kcostell]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19767
Loc: New York
(deleted -- see below)

Top
#2117610 - 07/14/13 05:32 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: Mark_C]
beet31425 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3784
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
This page supposedly has a free-download button. It didn't work for me, but it might for you. (It seems I just don't have a needed 'plug-in.')

That just links to the Mitchell translation, which the OP said was under copyright. Don't worry, Mark: You're not really missing an important plugin. Everything about that page, from "Download the Password" to "Just Complete a Survey, Win Free Books," screams SCAM.


kcostell, I looked for a while, and I couldn't find one. Is it possible that Mitchell's is the first English translation? imslp has the original German and a French translation.


-J
_________________________
Beethoven: op.109, 110, 111

Top
#2117616 - 07/14/13 05:42 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: beet31425]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19767
Loc: New York
My goodness gracious.

Sorry to have linked to anything like that! Let's see if I can delete it.... (and maybe then take it out of the above post too!)

Top
#2117656 - 07/14/13 07:11 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: kcostell]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4414
Loc: San Jose, CA
I have the Norton edition of this book in paperback, but I don't remember paying $53.00 for it, as I see it listed on Barnes and Amazon. Maybe I have just mercifully forgotten.

There is the public library; there are inter-library loans. All, free of charge, except that you have to give the books back. They could make the obstacles in your path melt away, like snow in July.

Let's face it, building a music library costs some bucks--- but who can deny that the wisdom of C.P.E Bach is worth that much sticker shock, and maybe more.

Secondhand bookstores could relieve your purse of some of its distress. They can also surprise the browser with some excellent works which are now out of print. Quite a few appear never to have been opened. (Not mine--- I get my money's worth out of them, even if it comes to the point of scotch tape).

Some of these days, I would like to find a bookstore which specializes in music: books, scores, and CDs. A pipedream, I suppose.
_________________________
Clef


Top
#2117678 - 07/14/13 08:02 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: Jeff Clef]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7598
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
Some of these days, I would like to find a bookstore which specializes in music: books, scores, and CDs. A pipedream, I suppose.

It just so happens that many such bookstores exist, one of the most famous being the Juilliard Bookstore, towards which a larger percentage of my income goes than I'd probably care to find out. I'm sure that you can find one in your area, or if not, you can always order things online from Juilliard.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2117786 - 07/14/13 10:37 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: kcostell]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Did someone say $53?! When Border's was still around I saw it on their shelves for much less. That can't be right. Surely, it can be found on amazon more cheaply?
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#2117822 - 07/14/13 11:40 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: kcostell]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
How do you know that translation is still under a valid copyright?
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2117856 - 07/15/13 02:47 AM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: stores]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7837
Originally Posted By: stores
Did someone say $53?! When Border's was still around I saw it on their shelves for much less. That can't be right. Surely, it can be found on amazon more cheaply?


The publisher's website lists it at $49.25 retail and $39.40 wholesale to bookstores. Barnes and Noble has it for sale online at $30.41.



Edited by wr (07/15/13 02:52 AM)

Top
#2117946 - 07/15/13 09:54 AM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: kcostell]
beet31425 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3784
Loc: Bay Area, CA
So there's no public domain English translation? I find that remarkable for a well-known 18th century text.

-J
_________________________
Beethoven: op.109, 110, 111

Top
#2117962 - 07/15/13 10:51 AM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: beet31425]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Hi J,

That's my point. Nobody seems to have checked out whether or not this or any translation is under a valid copyright.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2117969 - 07/15/13 11:05 AM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: laguna_greg]
beet31425 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3784
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Hi J,

That's my point. Nobody seems to have checked out whether or not this or any translation is under a valid copyright.


No, we have different points. smile

Mitchell's translation is from 1948, which is modern for a work written in the mid-18th century. I'm perfectly willing to believe that this translation is still under copyright. My question is: where are the previous English translations?

-J
_________________________
Beethoven: op.109, 110, 111

Top
#2117988 - 07/15/13 11:57 AM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: beet31425]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
You're right, there must be other earlier translations available. Even still, copyright endures for the life of the author + 50 years. When did the translator die? If he passed before the mid-60s, you're in luck.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2118045 - 07/15/13 01:54 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: kcostell]
sandalholme Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 769
Loc: Dorset, UK
Th paperback Eulenberg Mitchell edition came out in 1974. Cost me £1.50, probably not long after it was published. Still have it of course.

Top
#2118069 - 07/15/13 03:02 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: kcostell]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21509
Loc: Oakland
Why must there be other translations? It has not been a standard treatise on the subject for 200 years, so the main interest would have been to scholars who would have understood German already.

In any case, if you cannot find another translation easily, if one did exist, it would likely cost a lot more than the readily available one.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2118088 - 07/15/13 03:49 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: BDB]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Hi BDB,

" It has not been a standard treatise on the subject for 200 years.."

You lost me. The essay has been around that long in print.

I think the OP is just asking if anybody knows of previous translations to the one made in the 1940s, which is quite late for a published work of that age.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2118093 - 07/15/13 03:58 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: kcostell]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21509
Loc: Oakland
When did you read it? I tried reading it, but most of it is outdated, and has been for 200 years. It is hardly standard reading these days.

I think the OP is saying that he or she wants to read the book, but does not want to learn German or pay for the English translation.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2118107 - 07/15/13 05:00 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: BDB]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Hi B,

I read it for the first about 35 years ago.

Please let me gently correct you. Everybody refers to this book, even singers. My first piano teacher had me read the chapters on ornaments when I did my first Bach suite. It was discussed at length during a class I took on harpsichord literature and performance in college.

I thought the OP might actually try to get sections of it to use somehow.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2118116 - 07/15/13 05:29 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: kcostell]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21509
Loc: Oakland
I think that you and I have different understanding of "everybody". I doubt that singers like Lady Gaga or Beyonce have ever referred to it.

In any case, it is available online in German. Anyone who cares much about it should learn German, anyway.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2118134 - 07/15/13 06:01 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: kcostell]
sandalholme Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 769
Loc: Dorset, UK
BDB:The Bach Versuch is quite useful for people who want to play music that was written 200 or so years ago. Reading treatises written last year on music from the classical period to the present day will not help anyone play any music of the Baroque and Galant period.

As for your comment about learning German, presumably you yourself read everything of interest in the original language?

Top
#2118154 - 07/15/13 06:38 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: kcostell]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21509
Loc: Oakland
I am sure that there are a great many treatises written recently that would give them more useful to most people playing music of the Baroque and Galant period today than their own efforts trying to understand the literature of that period. Even among the tiny minority of people who play any of that music, I would suspect that very few read any literature about it, though. It would take rather dogged determination to slog through any 200 year old technical German treatise even in translation. People who do read it today do not read it for the reasons that Bach would have expected the people who were reading it then to have had. Bach was writing for the wannabe Beyonces and Lady Gagas of his time, who are decidedly not the people who read it today.

I can afford to buy a translation if I am interested enough to read something in a language that I do not know. I was curious enough about that book to buy a copy years ago when it showed up at a used book store. My skills with foreign languages are not as sharp as I might like, but I do have a little familiarity with some of them, including German. If I were a scholar in early 18th century music, though, I would want to be better at the German of that time, and the French, Italian, and English as well.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2118174 - 07/15/13 07:43 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: BDB]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Hi B,

I think we wouldn't agree about who is actually a singer. Beyonce has a lovely voice but doesn't sing all that well or seriously. Lady Gaga has no voice and is no singer at all, and so the comparison is not apt.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2118189 - 07/15/13 08:12 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: sandalholme]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7837
Originally Posted By: sandalholme
BDB:The Bach Versuch is quite useful for people who want to play music that was written 200 or so years ago. Reading treatises written last year on music from the classical period to the present day will not help anyone play any music of the Baroque and Galant period.

As for your comment about learning German, presumably you yourself read everything of interest in the original language?


I have the impression that there are some relatively recent books on Baroque performance practice. I don't think the Bach is the only source of information available for those who are interested in the subject.

Top
#2118196 - 07/15/13 08:19 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: beet31425]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7837
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Hi J,

That's my point. Nobody seems to have checked out whether or not this or any translation is under a valid copyright.


No, we have different points. smile

Mitchell's translation is from 1948, which is modern for a work written in the mid-18th century. I'm perfectly willing to believe that this translation is still under copyright. My question is: where are the previous English translations?



I thought I had posted something about this, but something happened to my post and it got lost.

In a review of the Mitchell translation I found in a musicological journal (from shortly after the translation was published), it said it was the first complete English translation.

People need to remember that the HIP thing really got going in earnest around the middle of the 20th century, and so finding translations of source materials from before that time is going to be hit and miss.

Top
#2118201 - 07/15/13 08:26 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: BDB]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19767
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: BDB
I think that you and I have different understanding of "everybody". I doubt that singers like Lady Gaga or Beyonce have ever referred to it.....

If anything you understate it. Relatively few people have ever referred to it -- pianists, singers, whatever.

Presumably he didn't mean "everybody" literally, so I'm not complaining that it's not literally accurate. But it's not close.

I'm a very serious pianist who has studied music and pianism way more than the average bear ha .....and I've never referred to it (and have never seen it). The only way I know anything of what's in there is that I've seen portions quoted occasionally, including a couple of times on this site. BTW I don't disagree that it's a historically significant work.

Top
#2118228 - 07/15/13 09:07 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: wr]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: sandalholme
BDB:The Bach Versuch is quite useful for people who want to play music that was written 200 or so years ago. Reading treatises written last year on music from the classical period to the present day will not help anyone play any music of the Baroque and Galant period.

As for your comment about learning German, presumably you yourself read everything of interest in the original language?


I have the impression that there are some relatively recent books on Baroque performance practice. I don't think the Bach is the only source of information available for those who are interested in the subject.


Hi Wr,

That's very true. And those more contemporary works all reference C.P.E. Bach and his essay.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2118232 - 07/15/13 09:17 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: BDB]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Hi BDB,

"Even among the tiny minority of people who play any of that music, I would suspect that very few read any literature about it, though. It would take rather dogged determination to slog through any 200 year old technical German treatise even in translation."

That "minority" is not so tiny, considering just how many other works use this essay as a source, and how many people play or listen to Bach in the world.

Look, if you want to justify your willful ignorance on this count by not picking up a book which you seem very proud not to have read, have at it. I guess playing music of this period is not important to you. Your disdain for such an effort is very well expressed.

But you're not impressing me or anyone. And it's not charming.

And don't compare the Bach family to Lady Gaga. Comparing one of the great seminal geniuses of the last 1,000 years of European Art music to idiots who can't sing, and wear cone bras and panty sets to sell tickets, shows that your opinion is worthless.


Edited by laguna_greg (07/15/13 09:21 PM)
Edit Reason: better parenting requires more scolding
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2118240 - 07/15/13 09:31 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: wr]
beet31425 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3784
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: wr
In a review of the Mitchell translation I found in a musicological journal (from shortly after the translation was published), it said it was the first complete English translation.

Ah: This is the single most relevant piece of information to the OP's original question! Thanks.

-J
_________________________
Beethoven: op.109, 110, 111

Top
#2118242 - 07/15/13 09:34 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: kcostell]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21509
Loc: Oakland
I am sorry, but did you read where I said that I own the book?
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2118245 - 07/15/13 09:35 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: laguna_greg]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7837
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: sandalholme
BDB:The Bach Versuch is quite useful for people who want to play music that was written 200 or so years ago. Reading treatises written last year on music from the classical period to the present day will not help anyone play any music of the Baroque and Galant period.

As for your comment about learning German, presumably you yourself read everything of interest in the original language?


I have the impression that there are some relatively recent books on Baroque performance practice. I don't think the Bach is the only source of information available for those who are interested in the subject.


That's very true. And those more contemporary works all reference C.P.E. Bach and his essay.


Of course. And they reference other material as well, which provides a broader outlook than a single source can.

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
ad (Casio)
Celviano by Casio Rebate
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Need Leutke Leipzig info
by Gardenergirl
09/16/14 12:26 AM
Best digital approximation
by TEHunter1
09/15/14 11:49 PM
Wow, check out this baby!
by Paul678
09/15/14 09:31 PM
Baby Grand new Hammer Knuckles.
by OscarL
09/15/14 08:30 PM
WEIRDEST passage in Chopin?
by Mark_C
09/15/14 08:16 PM
Who's Online
92 registered (beet31425, 30 invisible), 1060 Guests and 14 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76209 Members
42 Forums
157553 Topics
2314180 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission