Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3
Topic Options
#2118691 - 07/16/13 06:24 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: kcostell]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21657
Loc: Oakland
Konrad Schneider, Fritz Bauer, Johannes Zimmermann, Adolf Schimpf...
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
Ad 800 (Pearl River)
Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#2118694 - 07/16/13 06:39 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: BDB]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Great. What years were they acquired, and how were they purchased?
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2118699 - 07/16/13 06:58 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: kcostell]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21657
Loc: Oakland
With cash, at various dates between 1750 and 1800. Now it is your turn to tell me how you happened to miss them, and all the others when you were doing your inventory of German households of that period.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2118726 - 07/16/13 07:51 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: laguna_greg]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7891
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Wr,

" And having it as one of multiple sources in a bibliography doesn't mean it can be said that the book is based on it, any more than one would say the book was based on any other single source listed."

Is that how you do research, do you? Really? You just list books with incomprehensible titles but don't read, analyze or quote them?



I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. You said all the current books were based on the C.P.E.'s essay, and they aren't. They are based on a variety of sources.

Quote:



"I think most people here can understand why it might be more useful to spend time reading a comprehensive current overview instead of just Bach's essay."

I agree with you that people ought to read widely in a subject, especially one where so much forensic reconstruction has been done as the late Renaissance. Let's consider some of the problems of preparing such work.

First, there are very, very few primary sources that have survived to this day. C.P.E. Bach's "Essay" is one of the oldest, most comprehensive and authoritative that we have. Aside from the (relatively) few J.S. Bach autographs that are held in archive, the Essay is the only direct insight available into how J.S. actually performed his music. After all, the son was taught by the father. He learned it directly from him. And there are no other written sources available to compare it to in regard to J.S.'s playing.



How and when did the subject become J.S. Bach's music? It isn't, as far as I am concerned. There are many, many primary sources of all sorts that are used in scholarship regarding the Baroque (and, I suppose, the transitional period right after it that would be covered by C.P.E.'s writing).

Quote:


Second, the reason we have so few written sources from this period and before, is because at the time music teaching was done by apprenticeship, often from father to son. There were no music schools, nor private lessons, nor "music teachers", nor textbooks as we think of them today. All teaching was done by the master to the apprentice, with the aim of producing professionals. And these were mostly singers, not instrumentalists. The reason the Essay seems incomplete in its thoroughbass instructions, for example, is because it was written to document a particular style of improvisation for other professionals, not as a teaching course for beginners or amateurs. Rudimentary teaching materials were written out by the master on the spot, as needed. Very, very few of those survive.



There are all kinds of resources, and lots of them. I know that Bach's essay is one of the major resources (as is the Quantz flute treatise), but that doesn't convince me that it is the first or best thing for a modern pianist to look to for some general guidance on HIP.

Quote:


Third, the "amateur player" and the "commercial pop artist" did not yet exist. Those are an invention of the 19th century, along with the conservatory system and all that went with it. At that time, lots of textbooks, manuals and teaching courses and methods were written to support it. These all document the NEW style of playing in imitation of Italian bel canto homophony. They generally avoid discussing the OLD style of contrapuntal playing as it fell completely out of fashion almost the minute J.S. Bach died in 1750. Even after the Paris revival in 1849, later theoretical treatises describe Baroque performance practice in terms of the 19th century, not the 18th or 17th. So we can't trust those sources as an accurate description of the Bach performance style.

Consider that, in the 18th century, there was no commercial or pop music, no amateur players, no sheet music or books about music, no keyboard instruments in middle-class homes, as we have them today. If you were a musician, you were a professional for life. Your employer was the court or the church, and they told you what to sing or play, what kind of music to write, and very specifically how to write it. You learned how from your dad and then, if you were lucky, underwent a long, indentured apprenticeship with a master, usually an organist. There was no music publishing of any kind native to Germany until about the middle of Bach's life. So written sources are very few on the ground.

Those contemporary works you prefer to read are the results of decades of detective work by musicologists, reconstructing practices for which there are almost no primary source materials available. For instance, one of my history professors in college made quite a name for herself when she published a paper describing how a particular Baroque ornament was probably performed, using marginal notes written on a madrigal score she found in a church library in Italy. It took her 3 years of searching to find it, and she only knew it existed because it was part of a large bequest to that church noted in city records. Don't tell her that a contemporary overview is more useful than the "Essay". She'd tell you how stupid that is, and then probably kick you in the shins.

We are very lucky to have such a work as the "Essay" available to us from that period. As far is its influence goes, well, how many people have played, sang or listened to J.S. Bach over the last 170 years? More than have heard Michael Jackson, arguably.


So what? A modern day pianist who is not a specialist is not going to feel obligated to consult primary sources in order to play the single Bach P&F or Handel suite or pair of Scarlatti sonatas they have to prepare for their degree recital or competitions or to round out their touring program or whatever. Do you think Argerich has read the Essay - well, maybe she has, but I wouldn't bet on it. I would expect that Schiff has, on the other hand.

Top
#2118750 - 07/16/13 08:44 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: BDB]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7891
Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Consider that, in the 18th century, there was no commercial or pop music, no amateur players, no sheet music or books about music, no keyboard instruments in middle-class homes, as we have them today. If you were a musician, you were a professional for life.


What an absurd statement!


No lie. For example, Scarlatti's publication of 30 sonatas in 1738 (falling under the heading of "sheet music or books about music", I would think) specifically mentions amateurs in its preface.

Top
#2118821 - 07/16/13 10:49 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: BDB]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Hi BDB,

When you come back with 50,000 similar instruments from households in all strata including farm hands, I would say you may have you may have spotted a trend.

However, the difference in the penetration of keyboard instrument, and especially the piano, into the middle- and low-class household from 1750 to 1850 is so different, I doubt you'll be able to do it.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2118838 - 07/16/13 11:15 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: wr]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
You know Wr, if you don't want to read this book, don't. If you think there are better sources out there, go ahead and use them. If you don't want an argument, keep your opinions to yourself.

If you've forgotten why we're talking about JS as well as CPE Bach, go back and read the 1st or 2nd page of the thread. The subject came up in the course of the discussion.

Of course Argerich has read the Essay. She plays a lot of Bach, and she's won prizes with it very early and recorded some of it very famously. Considering who her teachers were, it's certain she's familiar with it. She speaks a good German, so she may have read it in the original.

" A modern day pianist who is not a specialist is not going to feel obligated to consult primary sources in order to play the single Bach P&F or Handel suite or pair of Scarlatti sonatas they have to prepare for their degree recital or competitions or to round out their touring program or whatever."

If I ever used such a lazy, self-serving excuse with any of my teachers anywhere, they would have boxed my ears. And I wouldn't have gotten either of my degrees. If any of my students tried to pull that on me, I'd feel the need to respond in a similar fashion.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2118841 - 07/16/13 11:17 PM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: wr]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Wr,

"Scarlatti's publication of 30 sonatas in 1738 (falling under the heading of "sheet music or books about music", I would think) specifically mentions amateurs in its preface."

The "amateurs" in question were probably his patrons at the Spanish court.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2118859 - 07/17/13 12:00 AM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: kcostell]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21657
Loc: Oakland
Then why did he publish them in England? No, on second thought, do not bother with another of your evasions.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2118868 - 07/17/13 12:30 AM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: kcostell]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 958
Loc: UK
I think Ravenscroft had a hand in that also, London was probably the publishing capital of the world.

Top
#2118930 - 07/17/13 06:43 AM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: laguna_greg]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7891
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
You know Wr, if you don't want to read this book, don't. If you think there are better sources out there, go ahead and use them. If you don't want an argument, keep your opinions to yourself.


You really didn't need to say any of that, since I am well aware of my options.

Quote:


If you've forgotten why we're talking about JS as well as CPE Bach, go back and read the 1st or 2nd page of the thread. The subject came up in the course of the discussion.



Just because there was some mention of his music earlier in the thread doesn't mean that the entire discussion suddenly must revolve around J.S., just because it is your whim. And since you were presumably responding to my post, and since I wasn't talking specifically about J.S., the sudden restriction of subject matter to the music of J.S. seemed a little...odd.

Quote:


Of course Argerich has read the Essay. She plays a lot of Bach, and she's won prizes with it very early and recorded some of it very famously. Considering who her teachers were, it's certain she's familiar with it. She speaks a good German, so she may have read it in the original.



Your assertions are not exactly what I think of as reliable documentation.

If Argerich plays "a lot of Bach", it's being done in secret, because out of the solo keyboard portion of his works, she has exactly three pieces of his available in recordings. And there's not a great deal of the non-solo works recorded, either.

Quote:


" A modern day pianist who is not a specialist is not going to feel obligated to consult primary sources in order to play the single Bach P&F or Handel suite or pair of Scarlatti sonatas they have to prepare for their degree recital or competitions or to round out their touring program or whatever."

If I ever used such a lazy, self-serving excuse with any of my teachers anywhere, they would have boxed my ears. And I wouldn't have gotten either of my degrees. If any of my students tried to pull that on me, I'd feel the need to respond in a similar fashion.


It seems you have an attraction to potentially violent teachers, what with your imagining of the kicking of shins and boxing of ears - not a very healthy relationship, IMO. And now you are threatening physical violence on your own students. Hmmm...

At any rate, my college teacher, who performed several of J.S.'s suites/partitas, never even so much as mentioned the essay when coaching me on various Bach pieces. He might very well have thought it pretentious if I did read it, since, at the time, HIP was not quite as fashionable as it is now.

Top
#2119463 - 07/18/13 04:28 AM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: BDB]
sandalholme Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 778
Loc: Dorset, UK
Originally Posted By: BDB
Absolutely. There is some documentation of how J S Bach performed, and his methods are curiosities today, ignored by most performers, mostly because they would not be practical under modern circumstances.


So my playing of a copy of the 1769 Taskin, which I owned for 20 years, and my playing of various other harpsichords, original and copies, is not practical if guided by eighteenth century methods, as written by those involved in performance practice at the time? Oh yes, and I have also played the original 1769 Taskin, which sounded and responded as if it were my copy.

What modern circumstances - except playing the music on instruments not available at the time and even then an awareness of contemporary methods are useful as a starting point before any changes are made to performing practice, eg on a modern grand - preclude studying and experimenting with the performing practice at the time?

Can you quote any modern harpsichordists, playing in an historically informed manner, who ignore the Versuch as a mere curiosity?

Top
#2119535 - 07/18/13 09:48 AM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: kcostell]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13795
Loc: Iowa City, IA
One issue regarding the Versuch:

We need to keep in mind that J.S. Bach's writing was considered pretty old-fashioned in his day. The Versuch was describing current practice around the end of J.S. Bach's career - not so much baroque, but Stile Galant - more a transitional style of writing than the high baroque or classical.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

Top
#2119596 - 07/18/13 11:57 AM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: sandalholme]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21657
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: sandalholme
Originally Posted By: BDB
Absolutely. There is some documentation of how J S Bach performed, and his methods are curiosities today, ignored by most performers, mostly because they would not be practical under modern circumstances.


So my playing of a copy of the 1769 Taskin, which I owned for 20 years, and my playing of various other harpsichords, original and copies, is not practical if guided by eighteenth century methods, as written by those involved in performance practice at the time? Oh yes, and I have also played the original 1769 Taskin, which sounded and responded as if it were my copy.

What modern circumstances - except playing the music on instruments not available at the time and even then an awareness of contemporary methods are useful as a starting point before any changes are made to performing practice, eg on a modern grand - preclude studying and experimenting with the performing practice at the time?

Can you quote any modern harpsichordists, playing in an historically informed manner, who ignore the Versuch as a mere curiosity?


Nobody is precluding anything. I said that most performers ignore the early sources.

If someone is interested enough in historical performances, then they should buy and read the book, no matter what it costs, and they should learn German so they can read it in the original language. But the idea that everyone has to read it, as espoused by some people here, is pure hyperbola.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2120012 - 07/19/13 05:07 AM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: Kreisler]
drumour Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 860
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
One issue regarding the Versuch:

We need to keep in mind that J.S. Bach's writing was considered pretty old-fashioned in his day. The Versuch was describing current practice around the end of J.S. Bach's career - not so much baroque, but Stile Galant - more a transitional style of writing than the high baroque or classical.


Exactly. And it is probably worth considering that CPE was known as the great Bach. He certainly thought that what he was doing was modern and a (evolutionary/improvement) moving on from the old "serious" style.


John


Edited by drumour (07/19/13 05:08 AM)
_________________________
Vasa inania multum strepunt.

Top
#2120088 - 07/19/13 09:53 AM Re: Public Domain translation of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Essay? [Re: kcostell]
FSO Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 854
Loc: UK, Brighton
Opinions, bolstered by speculation and truncated by counter-speculation, rarely reveal a truth in the matter. Um...I'm glad, or perhaps merely hopeful, that this thread's chilling out a bit...there's too much unnecessary argument in the world as it is. Sure, I'd love to read it...but if I don't read it, that doesn't automatically invalidate any attempt I make to play Bach. If I write a book on practice, based on this premise, it cannot be related to the essay. That's fine too...I mean, um, you can quibble whether something's more important or less important, more accurate or less so, but this rings very familiarly of "Mozart's better than Beethoven" and "Beethoven couldn't have written X without Mozart's influence"...um...nobody has to like anything, so, please, can't we just enjoy the passions of others, even if we hold them not ourselves, and forgive others who do not share ours?
Xxx
_________________________
Sometimes, we all just need to be shown a little kindness <3

Top
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
8 Live Ragtime Piano Players on the Cape!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Connect virtual piano to a loopstation?
by Fannix-kun
10/20/14 01:58 PM
Happy Birthday Charles Ives!!
by Dfrankjazz
10/20/14 01:11 PM
False beating and unison tuning
by SMHaley
10/20/14 12:41 PM
Erard/Linke - Obtaining info from Museum of Music - France
by wdmcjrd
10/20/14 11:59 AM
First Pianniversary
by PhilipInChina
10/20/14 10:06 AM
Who's Online
150 registered (36251, accordeur, AB Forum Recital, Aibohphobia, 38 invisible), 1709 Guests and 12 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76594 Members
42 Forums
158380 Topics
2325689 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission