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#2117157 - 07/13/13 07:07 PM Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists
Mwm Offline
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Thoughts and names?

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#2117288 - 07/13/13 11:59 PM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: Mwm]
laguna_greg Offline
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M Dearest,

Are you kidding? Even the mediocre music composed by "non-pianists" (and there's a lot of it) is most often played first by the composer, making them a pianist! By definition!

Could you rephrase that...
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1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
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#2117290 - 07/14/13 12:13 AM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: laguna_greg]
Mark_C Online   content
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Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
M Dearest,

Are you kidding? Even the mediocre music composed by "non-pianists" (and there's a lot of it) is most often played first by the composer, making them a pianist! By definition!

Why not be nicer? smile

You know what the OP meant. (Don't you?)

There's pianists, and there's people who just sort of play the piano. Chopin wrote some stuff for violin, cello, and voice. Would you say he was a violinist, cellist, and singer? grin

I admit that the line might be a bit hard to draw. Was Schubert a "pianist"? I'm not sure but I think he could be a good answer here. Not sure I could name any other 'great' composer of piano music who might not have been a "pianist."

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#2117293 - 07/14/13 12:19 AM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: Mark_C]
Orange Soda King Offline
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Registered: 11/25/09
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Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Originally Posted By: Mark_C

Why not be nicer? smile


Yeah, having a few drinks usually makes me happier, not grouchier. smile

EDIT: To stay on topic, Berlioz.


Edited by Orange Soda King (07/14/13 12:22 AM)

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#2117295 - 07/14/13 12:25 AM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: Mark_C]
currawong Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
You know what the OP meant. (Don't you?)
Well actually, I'm not sure. Perhaps he should clarify. Does he mean by "non pianists"
[1] composers who are not virtuoso pianists, or performing pianists?
[2] composers who don't play the piano at all, and I can't think of any off-hand. Anyone with any training as a composer should be able to get around the keyboard to some extent (making them, as laguna_greg says, by definition a pianist).
or [3] something (?) in between.

It would perhaps have helped if he'd given his own example to start with. That's often the best way to kick off a thread in any case. Some posters are inclined to pose a question, nothing else, and then disappear...

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#2117300 - 07/14/13 12:33 AM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: Orange Soda King]
Mark_C Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
EDIT: To stay on topic, Berlioz.

Good try, but not on topic. grin

(Piano music, piano music!)

Originally Posted By: currawong
....Some posters are inclined to pose a question, nothing else, and then disappear...

Those people tend not to get too much attention in the future. ("Fool me once".......how does that go?) ha

(I know, but not everyone famously always did....)

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#2117301 - 07/14/13 12:35 AM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: Mwm]
Orange Soda King Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
EDIT: To stay on topic, Berlioz.

Good try, but not on topic. grin

(Piano music, piano music!)


I know. There just happens to be somebody singing along. ha


Edited by Orange Soda King (07/14/13 12:37 AM)

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#2117306 - 07/14/13 12:42 AM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: Orange Soda King]
laguna_greg Offline
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Which major piano pieces did Berlioz write? And I think I'm perfectly nice, especially when I'm drunk.

Either way, my point is perfectly valid. Why don't don't we start with that? So get over yourself...

...and along those lines...how about Mussorgsky, an indifferent pianist, who wrote one of the major cyclic works of the 20th century?...Pictures...

Now there's somebody who really didn't understand the idiom of the piano!
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1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
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#2117308 - 07/14/13 12:47 AM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: Mark_C]
laguna_greg Offline
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Mark,

"I admit that the line might be a bit hard to draw. Was Schubert a "pianist"? I'm not sure but I think he could be a good answer here..."

Schubert was good enough to convincingly play the Erlkönig at its premier, even if it was in someone's living room, and countless times after. And all the other, particularly nasty song accompaniments.

Have you, ever, played the Erlkönig with a singer in front of an audience, of any kind? Or "Die jönge nönne", or "Auf dem wasser zu singen", or "Groupe aus dem Tartarus" I have, a few times...

Either way, it makes him one heck of a pianist and possibly better than you or I. Thanks for proving my point...



Edited by laguna_greg (07/14/13 12:54 AM)
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#2117396 - 07/14/13 07:44 AM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: laguna_greg]
stores Offline
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Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Mark,

"I admit that the line might be a bit hard to draw. Was Schubert a "pianist"? I'm not sure but I think he could be a good answer here..."

Schubert was good enough to convincingly play the Erlkönig at its premier, even if it was in someone's living room, and countless times after. And all the other, particularly nasty song accompaniments.

Have you, ever, played the Erlkönig with a singer in front of an audience, of any kind? Or "Die jönge nönne", or "Auf dem wasser zu singen", or "Groupe aus dem Tartarus" I have, a few times...

Either way, it makes him one heck of a pianist and possibly better than you or I. Thanks for proving my point...



+1
Schubert, was not a pianist of Liszt's, Chopin's, or even Beethoven's caliber, but he was no slouch and the music history books need to stop implying otherwise. You'll have to forgive Mark, as he, at times, speaks on topics he's not completely versed in.
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#2117406 - 07/14/13 08:39 AM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: stores]
Mark_C Online   content
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You'll have to forgive Stores. He's jealous of people who know stuff that he doesn't and especially who think a little more complexly. ha

The main point of my post was the opening:

"Why not be nicer?"

I was trying to help the thread have a better tone than the first reply threatened to give it.


P.S. My post admitted that I'm not the best versed in exactly what kind of pianist Schubert was. grin
Anyway it appears that yes indeed (as an above post by somebody or other said) ha .....he could be a good answer here.

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#2117412 - 07/14/13 08:52 AM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: Mwm]
Mwm Offline
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Good morning all. Yes, perhaps one too many drinks made me laconic rather than verbose. I should rephrase my question, though I have really enjoyed the responses anyway.

Let me provide an analogy that made me think of asking this question from posting in another thread. Beethoven was not trained as a singer, as far as I know, yet he wrote for the voice - badly.

Is there any great piano music written by composers who could not, did not play the piano? The point is that one can learn the range of an instrument, the transposition of the instrument, and so on, and write a decent symphony. But, there seem to be limits on how well can write for an instrument (the voice is an instrument) if one does not have training on it.

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#2117416 - 07/14/13 09:02 AM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: laguna_greg]
Mwm Offline
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Registered: 02/20/13
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Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Which major piano pieces did Berlioz write? And I think I'm perfectly nice, especially when I'm drunk.

Either way, my point is perfectly valid. Why don't don't we start with that? So get over yourself...

...and along those lines...how about Mussorgsky, an indifferent pianist, who wrote one of the major cyclic works of the 20th century?...Pictures...

Now there's somebody who really didn't understand the idiom of the piano!

Precisely! Wonderful music, but not idiomatic. Look at the structure of a work of Chopin - cascading phrases that are identical in structure, just shifted harmonically, lines that fall effortlessly under the hands that make a piece sound vastly more difficult than it is.


Edited by Mwm (07/14/13 09:05 AM)

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#2117456 - 07/14/13 10:56 AM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: Mwm]
asiantraveller101 Offline
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Rossini, more well-known as an operatic composer, wrote many piano pieces that are quite interesting and should be better known. I like especially the pre-Satie style collection of "Sins of Old Age" with pieces like "Ouf! Les petits pois!" and "Prélude convulsif."
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#2117465 - 07/14/13 11:35 AM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: Mwm]
jdw Online   content
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This thread led me to look up Joaquin Rodrigo because he's more famous for his guitar concerto than for his piano music. But it turns out he really was a pianist.
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#2117466 - 07/14/13 11:35 AM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: Mwm]
Steve Chandler Offline
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How about Cesar Franck? He was known primarily as an organist, he obviously had keyboard skills, but is the Prelude Chorale and Fugue a good enough piano piece to warrant inclusion?

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#2117517 - 07/14/13 02:01 PM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: Steve Chandler]
laguna_greg Offline
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Of course, why not Steve?

Except that Franck was a very fine keyboard player including the piano. His chamber music, if nothing else, attests to a highly idiomatic understanding of the piano.
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#2117523 - 07/14/13 02:14 PM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: Mwm]
Mwm Offline
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Good suggestions all, so maybe there is a significant grey area as to the pianistic qualifiations of a piano composer. My somewhat narrow and hugely biased thought was that Beethoven (IMNSHO) was lousy at writing for voice, therefore, by analogy, are there other famous or infamous composers who could not play the piano, but, nonetheless, wrote idiomatically for the piano?

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#2117528 - 07/14/13 02:19 PM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: laguna_greg]
Mwm Offline
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Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
M Dearest,

Are you kidding? Even the mediocre music composed by "non-pianists" (and there's a lot of it) is most often played first by the composer, making them a pianist! By definition!

Could you rephrase that...


You make an interesting point I have often wondered about. If a composer writes, at the piano, or even tests sections of a composition at the piano, when the work is actually for, say, a string quartet, does that inevitably bias the final texture, voicing, and flow of the music?

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#2117529 - 07/14/13 02:20 PM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: Mwm]
laguna_greg Offline
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Hi Mwm,

The difference is that there are several major composers who were not singers themselves but who understood how to write for the voice. Puccini, Mozart, Duparc, Poulenc, Copland, Brahms, and many others understood how to write beautifully for the voice and show off its best qualities. And none of them sang per se. Most successful opera composers fall into this category, and they all played the piano very well.

I've run across a few composers these days, still living, who are not pianists, just composers (you can actually do that today). And they compose with facility until they try to write something virtuosic for the piano. They can't do it because they really don't understand the instrument. At the same time, the piano has fallen out of favor as the chosen instrument for composition. So new works are slim on the ground even from people who know how to play.

It used to be that composers had to be trained in keyboard skills at the conservatory in order to be able to write anything. For the last 70 years, not nearly so much. It's all serialist this, and IRCAM that, and algorithms and chance. No room for real piano writing in that kind of philosophical setting.
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1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
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http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
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#2117531 - 07/14/13 02:27 PM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: Mwm]
laguna_greg Offline
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Hi Mwm,

Stravinsky was well known to insist on only using a special piano to compose on, either at his home, or at summer festivals. He had the pedal disabled so he couldn't just sit and play, as he felt it would influence the act of composing too much. Copland followed a similar habit, as I've heard. They both played quite well.

Now Samuel Barber, on the other hand, liked to noodle around the keyboard a lot while he was writing. And I think that influenced his writing a lot!

The differences between the piano textures from the three of them are unmistakeable.
_________________________
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1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2117544 - 07/14/13 03:06 PM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: Mwm]
Mwm Offline
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Yes they are. I really enjoy accompanying singers performing Barber. There are moments where he allows the piano to resonate from the acoustic energy of the singer. It is very special.

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#2117561 - 07/14/13 03:48 PM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: Mwm]
Mark_C Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Mwm
....My somewhat narrow and hugely biased thought was that Beethoven (IMNSHO) was lousy at writing for voice, therefore, by analogy, are there other famous or infamous composers who could not play the piano, but, nonetheless, wrote idiomatically for the piano?

The logic of this fairly much escapes me ha ....but be that as it may, Beethoven was not "lousy" at writing for voice, nor on anything else of any significance with music.


P.S. I do get the 'logic' grin but the premise is wrong.


Edited by Mark_C (07/14/13 04:01 PM)
Edit Reason: Eliminated some silly stuff about forms of logic, but if you want to see it anyway, it's quoted below

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#2117568 - 07/14/13 03:58 PM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: Mark_C]
Mwm Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Mwm
....My somewhat narrow and hugely biased thought was that Beethoven (IMNSHO) was lousy at writing for voice, therefore, by analogy, are there other famous or infamous composers who could not play the piano, but, nonetheless, wrote idiomatically for the piano?

The logic of this fairly much escapes me ha .....I mean, there's the converse, the inverse, the contrapositive (which for some reason is a word that my Firefox spellcheck doesn't recognize, but heck, as I just found out, it doesn't recgnize "spellcheck" either) ha .....and this is none of those -- heck, it's not even a syllogism grin ....but maybe there's some principle of logic heretofore unknown to man (or woman) that's involved here.

But be that as it may, Beethoven was not "lousy" at writing for voice, nor on anything else of any significance with music.

Actually, I think he was also lousy at modulation. Don't get me wrong. I like Beethoven's music, especially the late quartets.

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#2117571 - 07/14/13 04:02 PM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: Mwm]
Mark_C Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Mwm
....Actually, I think he was also lousy at modulation....

Yeah, he was just terrible at it -- the guy just really wasn't very much at music theory or technique. grin

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#2117576 - 07/14/13 04:11 PM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: Mwm]
Kreisler Offline



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One way to rephrase the initial post might be to look at the purpose of composition:

1) To write music to be played by oneself
2) To write music to be played by a specific group of people
3) To write music to be played by a broad public

Thinking this way, we might get:

1) Liszt, who wrote with himself in mind as a performer
2) Beethoven, who wrote with the expectation that the performer would have great technical command and a high level of artistry
3) Grieg, who wrote music for anyone to enjoy, from amateurs to professionals and everything in between

And of course some composers fall into more than one category. I think Brahms, Schumann and Chopin have works in all three categories.

And some are clearly in one - Samuel Barber for example clearly falls in #2

I also have a feeling that Schubert spent most of his time in #1 and #3, not so much in #2 (same with Granados I suspect). Rachmaninoff didn't care so much about #3 (though he highly respected them as audience members.)
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#2117578 - 07/14/13 04:13 PM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: Mwm]
haakonsb Offline
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Christian Sinding was a Violinist, and he wrote piano music, mainly because his publisher earned more money on it!!! "Rustle of Spring" is a good example

He also wrote a piano concerto, not as well known! don't think many non pianists did that!


Dvorak was also primarily a violinist i think?

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#2117582 - 07/14/13 04:17 PM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: Mark_C]
jdw Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C

The logic of this fairly much escapes me ha ....but be that as it may, Beethoven was not "lousy" at writing for voice, nor on anything else of any significance with music.



Mark, I wonder if you sing? Beethoven's vocal writing is great as music, which I'm sure is what you're talking about. But I can see Mwm's point too, because vocally it's not too friendly.

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#2117584 - 07/14/13 04:20 PM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: jdw]
Mark_C Online   content
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Originally Posted By: jdw
....Beethoven's vocal writing is great as music, which I'm sure is what you're talking about. But I can see Mwm's point too, because vocally it's not too friendly.

With that, I agree.

Do I sing? Yes and no. I've sung in choruses, including a fair amount of Beethoven, including this:



IMO pieces like that in themselves immediately negate anything about his being "lousy" at writing for voice. And that's before we get to the 9th Symphony, which seems to have been Exhibit A on here for his being "lousy," which is fairly absurd.

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#2117592 - 07/14/13 04:43 PM Re: Great Piano Music composed by Non Pianists [Re: Mark_C]
Mwm Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Mwm
....Actually, I think he was also lousy at modulation....

Yeah, he was just terrible at it -- the guy just really wasn't very much at music theory or technique. grin

So true. Finally, we agree on something! crazy

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