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Of course, but there is subtle difference between playing a sonata and being assulted by 700 inept choristers who think B. 9 was actually written by god.

Which reminds me of an interview with the head of music for the Salvation Army. He receives numerous compositions from members and accepts a few and rejects many. One composer complained to him about having his composition rejected as it was dictated to him directly by God. The good music director said "I have no doubt that it was dictated to you by God, but you must of written it down wrong."

Now it seems like you mean you don't like to listen to what you consider to be poor performances of Beethoven which is completely different.

You are digging too deep. Accept the fact I don't particulaly like Beethoven. Is that a sin? I am not asking you to dislike Beethoven.

Of course.

Is it deadly? Do I have six more left?

No, I'm afraid not liking Beethoven counts for all seven.

Sing a requiem in my honour, preferably not one by Beethoven. Did he write any?

I'll put a record of Beethoven's complete works on repeat in your grave, to run for eternity.

I always knew I would suffer eternal damnation.

Too bad you are so far away, we could listen to Beethoven to the accompaniment of a good hot Indian curry (I am an awesome cook) and a delectable French Chateauneuf-du-Pape.

Where shall we start? Let us ease into it with the early piano quartets, then just imagine how excited we will be when we arrive at the Op 2 sonatas!

Oh wait, Polyphonist, I forgot the Op 1 piano trios!

(Seriously, I heard a live performance of the Op1/3 at St. Bride's in London one rainy afternoon. It knocked my socks off.)

I am going to sign off. With all due respect, Beethoven has always been the most important composer in my life, and he was the one who first got me involved with classical music in the first place. (Not a bad thing, I should think?)

I have never looked back, and my gratitude has no bounds. Just the other day I heard a superb performance of the the D major cello sonata (Op 102), and once again I was in the presence of the Master. Thank-you, sir.

Trust me, if it's you that you believe I'm jealous of then you need to get yourself a life. If "complexly" is a rambling mishmash of incoherency then I'll happily remain a simple thinker.

Good thing your thoughts on the subject mean nothing.

I agree completely, and I might add that the latest piano sonatas (from Opus 101 on) are some of the most sublime and transcendent works ever composed, in addition to pieces like the late string quartets, the Ninth Symphony, and the Diabelli Variations (the 33rd variation of which has never failed to bring me to tears).

I'll just add that Frank once sightread the Hummel concerto in a minor a third lower than written.

Regarding the ongoing discussion about Beethoven, I too think he is one of the greatest composers ever (op. 111 is one of my favourite piano pieces, if not my all-time favourite) and I'd like to see a "lousy modulation" of his. I really mean this, if he did write bad modulations, I'd like to see an example or two.

Regarding the topic, Haydn hasn't been mentioned. He wasn't a virtuoso, but he could play the piano pretty well, so he is also in the "grey area". And he certainly composed great piano pieces.

IMHO Sibelius's piano music is great (and underappreciated), and Sibelius also didn't play the piano at a virtuoso level, altough it was the first instrument he learned (violin took over later).

Earlier in the thread you said you liked him. How quickly tastes change...

But hey, you are in pretty good company - IIRC, Debussy and Benjamin Britten had issues with Beethoven, too. And for some current composers, the entire esthetic world that Beethoven belonged to is too remote to even matter.

Each of the thoughts posted on PIano World is an opinion. There is no such thing as absolute or universal truth. There is only observed reality, and that reality applies to the observer alone. I say what I think, you say what you think. In the end only what you think matters to you. Live with it.

HI Mark,

Let me throw some more gasoline on the fire:

"but be that as it may, Beethoven was not "lousy" at writing for voice, nor on anything else of any significance with music."

Actually he was not a great writer for the voice as any singer will tell you. I and many other also do not consider him a great melody writer generally.

Look at what you just said.

Actually, before we do, we need to know what you mean by "great."

But for the moment, I'll assume that great means great.

There's an awful lot of room between "lousy" and "great." I was just saying it's absurd to say he was lousy -- which it is.

So, you're not pouring fuel on the fire. You're offering to start a new fire, and I'm not getting into it.