How about Schimmel NWS and Petrof Pasat?

Yes, indeed Ron, thanks for that post. I especially liked, "The pace of change remains painfully slow. I believe this is a consequence of the market dominance of one company, which refuses to change their product because they are so successful that they don't have to change a thing. There remains considerably more to be achieved in the area of scaling, if we allow ourselves to move the goal posts to wherever they need to be for best performance. The evolution of the acoustic piano is not yet complete."

True words, which helps bring focus on how much better pianos could be if the companies and consumers smartened up. In some sense, it's not really the consumer's fault--they've been sold a sales pitch that never ends. Companies showcase little changes and pretend that they are a revolution. What a shame!

Since I have seen no M&H I can't really say anything on the subject. Did this dealer elaborate why it wouldn't sell over here? Is it because of the different finish (green with red dots??) or because of the different tone of the piano?

@ Ron Overs:[/b]

Thank you very much for your detailed post... kind of makes sense now that I think about it... of course the force needed to pull the string towards a higher pitch grows with the tension on the string.

After your first post, I've counted, since most of the pianos I've played have the break where mjs said, that would be between A#26, B27 and C28 (I believe).

Anyways, I've PM'ed you because I'm very interested in the technical side of the piano. Just out of interest, of course, not to be as presupmtuous to think I would be able to learn enough to really give a good judgement about a piano design when I "analyse" it...

@ lucy_amanda:[/b]
I did not include Schimmel because I played (amateur) pianobar on one for some five years and didn't like the tone at all... Petrof, however, is definitely missing on the to-try-but-no-dealer-list...

SEARCH UPDATE (SMALL ONE):[/b]

I've been on a short business trip to Val d' Aosta today and while I was waiting for a person in a completely empty hotel lobby, I noticed a Yamaha C5 standing there... I just couldn't resist and asked the receptionist if I could play a little on it, as the person I was waiting for had warned me that he'd be about 40 min late...

Well, I don't know if it was because I hadn't played any other piano before or because it was an older instrument (about 15 years) and therefore different, but it felt at least ten times better than the C3 I tried at Passadori Pianoforti and another three times better than the new C5 I tried at Piano Fischer...

Ok, the action was on the heavy side, but I didn't notice the "lost motion" I noticed on both new Yamahas. The sound was still way too bright for my taste, but it really seemed to remind me remotely of the good memories I have from the Yamaha at Graz University. On top of it, it earned me a free coffee for entertaining the lonely receptionist

P.S.: I told this to my girlfriend on the phone and she said, she's starting to worry about me... I then asked if there's any cool piano stores in Russia, so I could continue searching when I go to visit her and she almost had a heart attack (at least she sounded like that)... of course with that I was just kidding, but she didn't really believe me...

I guess as cool as there is Russian Vodka stores in Sterzing, Italy....

[Moscow aside...ahem..ahem...]

Norbert

Well, I'm almost sure that in Moscow and in Petersburg there actually are cooler piano stores than our vodka stores here

But from what I understand she's alreayd sitting there meticulously planning the sightseeing tours with pinpont precision, so that we won't come anywhere near the three-mile-zone of a piano store...

Vippo,

(it's the first time I write... exciting).

if you want to try Steingraeber 205 and Grotrian 208 (Charis) ((and Grotrian 277 (Concert Royal), but also Petrof 210)), then go to Bergamini near Torino. In few weeks (I hope days) he will receive the Steingraeber 205 S.
Thus a very rare competition (208 vs 205) will take place: The whole (piano) world is going to envy us...

PS in the last month I tried Boesendorfer 200 in Bergamo (San Michele Pianoforti), Fazioli 212, 278, Liminal in Sacile (Fazioli Factory), S&S all models in Brescia (Passadori).

Currently my favourite is Grotrian 208 and 278!!!
In the next posts I'll explain also my judgement regarding the other pianos I tried.
ciao

YIPPPPIIIIIIEEE, sigaretta, your advice is sent from heaven! \o/

I PM'd you about dealers in northern Italy and hope we can get a good exchange going. I forgot to ask you about pricing of the Grotrian and Steingräber at Bergamini, but anyways, I'll find out soon

Now, since you've done the bumping for me, I can as well post some news on my way to bankruptcy:

this friday I'm going to Vienna and since at the moment I seem to be a *very* lucky guy, there's TWO showroom visits that I will find the possibility to combine with my business trip:

- Klavierhaus A. Förstl, where, among Bösendorfer 192 (don't know if CS or "normal"), Bechstein 190 (Academy or C.?) et al. I finally will be able to try an August Förster 190, which I'm really looking forward to.

- Vienna Piano Team, where the Steingräber 205 is waiting between two Seiler 186 and 208.

You think I'm a lucky guy because of this alone? WRONG![/b]

I think I've found an opportunity to try out an Estonia sooner or later in Villach (AUT)! Luckily (I don't know where such coincidences are made, really!) the last week of February I will have to travel to Zagreb and -guess what- the best way to go there from Vipiteno is going over Villach. Now unfortunately Mr. Schneider wrote that the cooperation with Estonia has stalled for the moment, but he wants to revive it soon, so I'll keep my fingers crossed! But in the meantime, a Rieger-Kloss (Bohemia) Janacek sits there waiting for me...

On top of that, if I happen to be near Padova, I'll be able to try out Schulze Pollmann 171 and 182, Petrof V to III, Boston GP 178, 198 and 218, S&S M, A and B as well as some used Blüthners, Steinways, and an almost new C-7. With that kind of lucky streak that I've got going right now, it won't be long before I happen to be there

While in Vienna, why don't you stop at Bosendorfer where you are sure to find every size model? They'll probably even give you a tour if you want one.

Then check out the other places as well. You should be happy with whatever you purchase so try out as many pianos as you possibly can.

Derick

well, unfortunately I don't have enough time to spend in Vienna, as I have to return for saturday. but since my sister is living at the doors of Vienna, sooner or later the opportunity of a Bösendorfer factory visit will arise. After all, Vienna is only about 500 km away. And if I'm stopping by the factory, a guided tour is an absolute must (there's too much engineer in me not to be interested about the production of pianos )

I will visit the Fazioli factory as well down the road (even nearer at about 350 km distance and plenty of potential business trips "nearby"). The only problem will be that my budget almost surely won't allow for either of the two

Vippo,

Can you fit me in your suitcase?

LL

I think the Bosendorfer CS is quite "reasonably" (relatively speaking that is) priced. But yes, a guided tour is an absolute must!

Derick

Hi again!

As anticipated I have been to Vienna Friday and got to try some pianos, although the time was a little too short, unfortunately.

In the morning I had a little time and visited Piano Förstl, although I had planned to do so only in the afternoon. I had finally found the August Förster 170 and 190 to try them. My first impression, starting on the 170 with the Beethoven sonata Op. 27-2, was extremely pleasing. The melodies came out nicely singing and the tone was very beautiful to listen to. Then I tried the Schubert Impromptus in E-flat and found the piano was lacking a great deal of power. The lid was closed, however, but also after opening it, it led me to literally pound the piano because I was missing the volume.

The 190 was in a different, smaller room, but my first impression was the same after playing a few measures of Chopin's Ballade in g minor and a Scriabin Etude in d sharp minor. It is an instrument with a very beautiful tone and a nice touch to go with it, but definitely lacks power. I wanted to get back there in the afternoon, because I wanted to give this otherwise wonderful instrument another try and on top of that they had a vast selection of Yamahas and a Bechstein Academy 190 ready to play. Unfortunately it didn't work out and I had only about 30 minutes for both pianos, so this is not a definitive judgement, but after expecting great things of the 190 (maybe too much), I am a little disappointed. I'll have to try the 190 again as soon as possible.

After my business meeting, which lasted much longer than I anticipated (which per se was very good, but I hadn't much time left for piano shopping) I had to decide if to go back to Piano Förstl or to have a visit to Vienna Piano Team, where the Steingräber 205 was ready to play. As it is not that easy to find, too, and since I already spent a short time playing the AF 190, I decided to visit Vienna Piano Team to try the Steingräber and two Seiler (183 and 208).

First I tried the Seiler 208 and was pleasantly surprised. I don't know why I didn't have them on the radar, but the 208 is a beautiful piano. A full bass with relatively few harmonics (I like it a lot when the bass notes come out very clean) goes along with and very nice tenor and treble, which sounds very clear, but without being too bright. I played some of my test pieces on it and the more I played, the more I thought that this could be a very serious contender. The only drawback in my opinion is the action which felt a little on the heavier side and most of all not overly precise. At the end, I played the part in a-flat minor of the Schubert Impromptus in F, where the right hand plays the ppp accompainment and the left the melody above the right hand, and found it difficult to control the volume of the right hand without losing the evenness.

After the first "tryout session", I changed to the Steingräber, and what can I say... even though for my taste it was voiced too softly, this instrument is a very close second behind the F-212 on my "Dreampiano List"! A very light and yet easily controllable action lets you bring out some tonal nuances that I didn't think I was capable of. The bass was very clean and exceptionally full (not loud!). The tenor was very beautiful, clean, mellow and singing, although the voicing there was way too soft in my opinion, and the treble wonderfully clear and well defined without sounding bright at all.

It definitely was a wonderful experience to play on it, although the very soft voicing caused some "Bösendorfer- effect" for me, where I miss the defined attack sound. I am not able to play faster passages on those without losing the brilliance and thus causing the notes to blur a little bit.

Switching back an forth between the Seiler 208 and the Steingräber 205, the action of the Seiler felt even less precise and almost too heavy to perfectly control ppp, but the tone of it compared favourably to the Steingräber, although sounding entirely different. The Seiler was voiced more brightly and has a somewhat colder tone, but as I said, without being too bright. The Steingräber in comparison has a warmer tone and a bass register to die for!

The only thing that saves the F-212's first place is the unbelievably precise action, even though I liked the treble of the Steingräber better. Perhaps with a voicing which suits my taste better, the Steingräber would have thrown the F-212 off first place. I really would like to try them side by side. Alas, it would be a comparison of two "untouchables" And all this just because of those unnerving financial constraints...

The Seiler 183 didn't impress me, I would definitely go for the 208 if I decided to buy Seiler. The bass was lacking the beautiful sound of it's bigger brother, and the action felt even less precise (didn't compare the key length).

So this trip this brings us to the following update:

- "Papabili" (strongest candidates of those tried out):
Grotrian Steinweg Cabinet (190 cm)
Seiler 208
August Förster AF 190 (?????)
Kawai RX-3 (barely escapes the discarded list because of the price...)

- Tried and discarded (in no particular order)
Yamaha C3, C5 (the latter with a little question mark)
Bechstein Academy Series
Blüthner 4 (forgive me)
Bösendorfer 185 and 200 (forgive me even more)
Shigeru Kawai SK III
Seiler 183

- Tried and on the shortlist in case of a lottery jackpot
Fazioli F-212
Steingräber 205
Steinway C
Bösendorfer 225
Fazioli F-185

- Still to try, located (potential) dealers
August Förster 215*
Sauter Delta, Omega*
Schulze-Pollmann
Rieger Kloss (Bohemia) Janacek and Smetana
Petrof
Estonia*
*=dealer found, but instruments currently not available

- Want to try, but can't find a dealer
Grotrian above Cabinet
Shigeru higher than SK III
Mason and Hamlin
Yamaha S

This is getting interesting and very entertaining. I'm quite surprised that the Kawai RX-3 would be on your list when the SK-3 has been discarded. Just wondering, what's the price difference between the two?

The SK-III costs around 35.000 €, while the RX-3 is in the low twenties... I discarded the SK-III, because I don't feel like spending 35.000 for it, while the RX-3 is on the shortlist not because I would compare it to the other three in terms of tonal qualities, but because it is cheap. But if I can afford it (which hopefully will be the case), I will go for a piano I like better.

The difference in price between the SK-3 and RX-3 is quite large. Performance wise, did you find the SK-3 necessarily superior? My impression of the latest SK-3s is that they are loud and powerful instruments, but not subtle enough for my tastes. Quite different from the earlier SK-3s I sampled. The RX-3s in comparison, sounded more balanced.

The Shigeru I played seemed to be good piano to me. The tone was not bad, powerful bass and nice treble, not too loud and most of all warm enough to keep me playing for more than 30 minutes.

Still I discarded it, because it had a academic feeling to it and the top of the keys felt like being made of plastic. I have a hard time to really point a finger to what led me to this decision, because the piano wasn't bad at all. It just didn't appeal me enough to consider spending such a high sum on it, when I can have a Grotrian 190 for the same money.

Did you get to try a 200CS Bösendorfer? I'd imagine that the list price would be somewhere in the low-ish € 40K region, so quite a 'bargain' compared to the (I assume) black models 185/200 that you appear to have already 'discarded' .

-Michael B.

I'm loving this thread. Keep posting vippo!

Please include me among those who are enjoying your reports.

Re the volume of instruments, it might be helpful to consider what you'd like to listen to at home on a long term basis.

The CS 200 as per price list is above 50.000 everywhere I looked... but this is not the only reason why I 'discarded' Bösendorfer. In fact all Bösendorfers I tried, with exception of the 225 at Piano Hirsch in Munich, are voiced in way too soft manner for my taste.

The effect which I found on all except said 225 disturbs me is that I can not clearly distinguish the single notes in fast passages. This may be partly due to my admittedly modest technique, but I didn't encounter this effect on any other piano, except the Steingräber I tried Friday, which was particularly softly voiced.

Thank you for the kind words bordering on compliments

@ FogVilleLad: I don't really want a loud instrument, but if you are referring to my observation about the AF 190, what irritated me was that there was a pronounced "knee" in the "force-applied versus loudness" graph, menaning that above a certain point I felt I could not bring any more out of the instrument.

A different story was the Grotrian I tried, which wasn't loud at all and had a somwhat subdued feel to it and I liked it very much. I didn't have the same "end of the road" feeling when playing with more energy.

vippo,

I was supposing that it would be ~10% less than the (Swiss franc) list price of a 214CS; then again, the €/CHF rate has moved quite a bit in the last couple of months[1], and EU rates of VAT are certainly higher than here.

Re the voicing issue, it is true to say that certain pianos don't take many prisoners when it comes to demanding clean articulation during more rapid passagework. I am sure that my general playing style has changed a bit since changing from a Yamaha C6 to my current piano 12 months ago. That said, I wouldn't say that my specific 214CS is particularly softly-voiced; the gentleman who maintains it (a highly-experienced Bösendorfer-trained technician) has remarked that it is amongst the brighter ones (l'un des plus clairs)that he has encountered over the years.

Anyway, best of luck with the rest of your search

-Michael B.
[1] Not as cheap as it used to be for us to go shopping in France 3kms away

Ciao Vippo,

I didn't resist, and I read your comments on the Steingraeber. Next Saturday will be my turn to try the 205S (side by side with the Grotrian Steinweg 208 charis) and after your judgement I'm even more eager to try it. grrrr... I don't know how to make this week flow...

OK, but I have a new suggestion for you... in Milan, at Griffa, near Via Conservatorio you can try (side by side) an exceptionally bright Boesendorfer 200 (non CS) and a wonderful Yamaha S4...

have a nice week!!
arbeit arbeit arbeit in order to be free... to choose your Steingraeber!!!

PS. the price that Mr. Griffa made to me (but I have some doubts, since he was a rookie with the calculator...) are 45000€ for the Boesie 200 standard and 30000€ for the Yamaha S4.

Ciao sigaretta! I was looking for your post, otherwise I would have had to email you

I am afraid that I will have to go to Torino by train next saturday, because it doesn't seem like I'm going to have another handy business trip in that part of the world anytime soon. This is surely quite a unique opportunity to have a Charis, Steingräber 205 and Petrof Pasat side by side to compare them.


that just HAS to be an error, since those prices would be earthquake material, especially for the Bösendorfer. Maybe I'll extend the "piano-only"-trip to Milano in this case

Vippo,

I am enjoying your reports about the pianos you are playing. How privledged you are to have these wonderful pianos available and within reasonable distance.

Regarding a few comments in your posts about the prices of some top pianos being out of reach...

If I recall, the title of your post is: "Another piano testing journey that will lead to bankruptcy"....so I am looking forward to your final selection that may very well put YOU (as well as many of the rest of us) WELL ABOVE our alloted budgets!!!

;-)

LL

In fact, lilylady, it already has brought me to double my budget after just one week, and this at a point where I hadn't really started my search in earnest

However, the absolutely ultimate pain threshold is already reached, I really can not afford more than I budgeted. In fact, I doubt that I can afford as much, but then again who cares... that's exactly where the thread title came from

Hmm..given that the Sauters seem to relatively affordably priced, I think they are well worth a look before you make your decision. Aren't Sauters priced lower than comparably sized Grotrians in Europe?

Of course, finding a dealer might be difficult, but in that case, I would strongly recommend paying a visit directly to the factory in Spaichingen. But be sure to give them a call first, to make sure there's inventory on hand to try!

vippo:

I am positive that the Grotrian Steinweg 208 Charis will simply blow you away.

It has everybody who tried it at NAMM last January.

A masterpiece among masters.......

Simple as that.

Norbert

Vippo, I really enjoy reading through your journey very much. When I bought my piano, I did not have nearly as many choices nor places to visit especially for those in my price range. I ended up a very happy owner of a Grotrian 192. I would definitely like to hear your impression of the Grotrian 208 in comparison to all the other brands as well.