vippo posted, I was referring to my opinion that less volume need not be a deal breaker, because volume should be considered in the context of where and how the instrument will be played.

Your observations - included above - re dynamic range go, IMHO, exactly to the point of what makes for a satisfying long term experience with a piano.

I'm among those who are following your experiences with great interest and am looking forward to learning your opinion of the Estonia 190 and how it compares to the Steingraebers.

I'm really looking forward to eventually try an Estonia. I keep my fingers crossed that the dealer in Villach kickstarts his relationship with Estonia!

I'm not sure if I made it clear that less volume is in fact in no way a dealbreaker. As long as I feel there is a linear passage from ppp to fff, I would consider it as a plus, as I'm going to have to please my eventual neighbors. But the AF 190 let me effortlessly control ppp to f, but made me pound it severely to even get out a ff, let alone fff.

On the Grotrian, which is not among the most powerful instruments I tried, this wasn't a problem, because the volume followed the force of the keystroke with a certain linearity.

I hope I got my point across better this time.

I understood you the first time, but my first reply was not clear. Please keep your observations coming.

So much of Estonia's production is shipped to North America that it's easier to sample one here;-)

Hi all!

Today I delivered conclusive evidence that I've become addicted to testing pianos... as the weather was bad, I just got up early in the morning, drove to Innsbruck train station and made the trip to Zurich to visit Jecklin, because they've got a Grotrian Charis

Well, when I arrived, Mr. Breuer drove me to a warehouse in Bülach, outside of Zürich, where a partner company of theirs has a huge hall with some 50 or 60 or even more grands of different makes. There a very kind Mrs., whose name I don't remember, waiting for us. She came from home to open the hall and waited there until I had tried three pianos. Go figure.

And the three pianos I tried side by side were three Grotrian Steinweg, namely the 192 Cabinet, the 208 Charis and the 225 Concert. I started with the Charis, as I almost hadn't slept at all from the excitement to be able to play one. It immediately reminded me of the 192 I tried at Piano Fischer in Munich, but had that little extra thingy to it... the action was light and perfectly precise, the tone clear and singing without being bright, and the bass was full, strong, while the whole piano mantained the pleasantly subdued characteristic I came to like with the 192. In one word, Norbert had it right: it just blew me away!

The obligatory first movement of the Beethoven Sonata op 27-1[/b] (stupid boy, I always thought E-flat was number 2, but that's the Moonlight Sonata...) and the Schubert Impromptus in E-flat major really showed what this piano is all about: while the chords in the Beethoven Sonata whispered beautifully along with perfect precision even at ppp and the melody almost sang by itself, the wonderful action allowed a perfectly smooth playing of the Schubert Impromptus. In the middle section of the Impromptus the 208 had that extra kick the 192 didn't have... I did not really miss anything on the 192, but the 208 sounds just bigger and fuller. In short: a really wonderful instrument!

A thundering Scriabin Etude sounded just as beautiful on it as some gorgeous Schubert melodies, Beethoven just as breathtaking as Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue... breathtaking at least to me, for others maybe not so much because of my playing...

To make sure my memory wasn't playing tricks on me with what I reacalled about the 192, I changed to the Cabinet and it sounded an felt to me like a clone of the one I tried at Piano Fischer. It was exactly as I remembered, a little more muted and softer than the 208 (voicing? Mr. Breuer didn't know for sure), but nonetheless every bit as nice as I remembered it.

The action on the 208 felt a little lighter and even more precise than on the 192. I talked about this to Mr. Breuer on the car while driving back to Zurich, but he didn't know if it was differently regulated or if it was due to differences in design. He hadn't seen the Charis yet and I didn't think of having a close enough look inside to see if there were any obvious differences. Maybe someone here can help... But what I did see that the finish inside is the same as on the Concert 225 and looks even more refined than that of the Cabinet 192.

Regarding the "less clean" bass tone compared to the Fazioli I tried to play some trichords down from the low c. They sounded well down to a-minor on the second-lowest a, below the trichords started to sound dirty. Well, I thought, no doubt a consequence of the "non pure" bass tone of the Grotrian.

The 225 Concert didn't seem all that well prepared and sounded a little muffled, but the sound really starts becoming concert grand- like on this one! A great instrument as well, but from what I saw basically the elder and bigger brother of the Charis, so I won't go any further into detail, the post is long enough as it is

Then we drove back to Zürich where there were two Steinway Bs side by side with two Fazioli F-212, some F-183 and two F-228. I sat down at the first B right behind the entrance, but remained rather unimpressed. The Beethoven sonata was hard to control because of the rather unprecise action and the overly rich bass (beautiful sound nonetheless, but a little bit too "spectacular"). The next B felt way better and a little more on the mellow side, but still the higher treble had a metallic sound to it.

I don't know if this is a case of a "self-fulfilling prophecy", because right from the first impression of the B, i thought that the F-212 would feel and sound better. As I sat down and played the first two chords of the Sonata, I knew that I had been right. The precision of the Fazioli is unbelievable... and on top I liked the tone better. While the Bs sounded more aggressive to me, both F-212 had a rounder, more unassuming tone.

I don't know how to describe the feeling... not that the Steinways sounded bright or harsh or unpleasant, but with their somewhat rougher tone they seem more suited for Rachmaninoff, Chopin etc. than for, let's say, Schubert. Today, When I played the Steinways, I couldn't help but think of some of my Horowitz recordings, if you know what I mean... those huge hands pounding away at it... while the Fazioli makes me want to play softly, almost down to a whisper...

Then they had a C. Bechstein M/P (190 cm I think) which was in another league altogether from the Academys I tried... the tone is warmer and mellower by lightyears, but still in the highest treble it starts to become really bright. While I liked the full and rich bass of the Academy, the C. Bechstein has a very beautiful and warm tenor section to go with it, but the action in my opinion is a step below the Grotrian and Setinway, let alone Fazioli. All in all, not my cup of tea, but still a very nice sounding piano.

I sat down briefly on a Yamaha C-5, but again it was just too bright and too loud for me. The "action problems" I encountered on the first two Yamahas on this journey weren't there, so I think those were just badly regulated. Anyways, I didn't spend more than two minutes on the Yamaha and got back to play through the Faziolis, Steinways and the Bechstein.

For not having to tell myself "they were there and you didn't try them", I briefly sat down at a Schimmel K-169 T and at a Steinway A. The Schimmel was way less bright than anticipated and not unpleasant at all to play, but as it was only 169 cm, the bass sounded the way you'd expect and the action wasn't the best. Still, this one pulled Schimmel back out of the doghouse my memory stuffed them into.

The Steinway A was unimpressive, not bad, but not that good either... the bass sounded a little small-piano-like and the action was not unlike the one of the "bad" B I tried before.

Then I remembered my little experiment on the Grotrian regarding the supposedly "pure" bass tone of the Fazioli and returned to the F-212. Well, I wish I could have seen my face, when I found out that, despite of the cleaner sounding tone, the trichords weren't blending as smoothly as on the Grotrian... exactly like on the Grotrian, a-minor on the a above the lowest a was the last nice-sounding trichord, but the "overall impression" of the trichords above wasn't as smooth as on the Grotrian... surprise, surprise... Maybe it was because of the different acoustics (huge, windowed concrete hall vs. 50 m² showroom with wooden floor), but certainly this one was as unexpected as they come...

Finally, after fooling around on the F-228 (not as good as the two F-212, but still a pleasure), it had become late and there were a Bösendorfer 180 and a Grotrian Cabinet waiting side by side in a room near the entrance. While the acoustics of that room were terrible, I still tried to figure out the differences between the two, if only to give myself another shot at learning to love the Bösendorfers... there's not much I can say because the room made a sinlge, huge blur out of the single notes, making it difficult if not impossible to really hear anything at all. In the category "singing qualities" I noticed no big differences. The Grotrian made it possible bring out at least a hint of distinction between the single notes on faster passages, while on the Bösendorfer it was almost impossible to tell if the right hand and the left hand were in sync when I played Chopin's Minute- Waltz. To be fair, also the Grotrian was almost lost in one huge blur, but still, it was a little better... or, better, a little less bad...

Well, folks, this post is a little bit of a hugey, I know, but this trip was worth describing in all detail... when does one have the opportunity to try out pianos of this calibre on the same day, let alone to play them almost side by side??? I have to thank the people at Jecklin's for having allowed me a really eye- opening experience. In almost all of the shops I happened to stop by, I was welcomed very warmly and everyone was really forthcoming, but Jecklin really went out of their way! And it is noteworthy that I told them all along that I wasn't coming to them to actually buy a piano, but they knew if at all, I was going to buy one in a few month's time... Really a standout even among all the extraordinary nice salespeople I met during the last month and a half!

Now this trip has brought a new entry on the "this could be vippo's piano down the road" chart... the Grotrian Steinweg Cabinet is now sitting in second place, while on top now there's....

[drum roll]...THE GROTRIAN STEINWEG CHARIS!!!!! [TA-TAAAA][/drum roll]

I don't know if it is just the excitation of the moment, but right now it seems to me that the Charis is right there with the Steingräber 205... I' ve got to hurry to Torino to try them side by side... (tomorrow??? ) Come on, sigaretta, tell us about those two and how they compare in your opinion...

Stay tuned as I've found a Sauter Delta in a music school at only 30 km from my hometown, which I'm going to try as soon as possilbe!

P.S.: thanks for your patience, this post is truly worthy of James Joyce... not in style (hopefully) but surely in length...

It could have been Joycian, if you'd ended your story with a comfortable bowel movement;-)

I really like your evaluating trichords down low as well as the clarity of individual treble notes in fast passages. Others may prefer a slightly more blurred sound, but your making your preference clear helps us all.

Looking forward to the Grotrian-Stengraeber side-by-side impressions.

Well, I feel like I have to hear each and every single note I play... with pianos which are too mellow there is almost no attack sound, it is like the sound is just suddenly there. Clarity is very important for me, you're right.

I really can't wait to try the Charis and the Steingräber 205 side by side... I keep my fingers crossed for a business appointment near Torino (Pinerolo) to materialise for next Tuesday...

Well,

yesterday I spent the whole day in Torino trying three grands:

- Grotrian Charis
- Steingraeber 205
- Grotrian Concert Royal

I thought that the direct comparison between the 208 and 205 would have brought me to a clear decision (or, at least, vision). Instead the comparison led to an aware list of differences without the proclamation of the winner…

As I arrived to Bergamini in Torino really convinced that I would have fallen in love with the Steingraeber… Therefore I prefer to list the plus an minus of the Steingraeber compared to the charis (so the subject is the Steingraeber 205S)

+
The 205 S I tried has an astonishing sustain capability. The soundboard is probably the best I tried in a grand (I must declare that my upright “Anelli” overtakes every piano I tried so far in sound duration). When you play a Bach Fugue, you can really hear the notes singing.
The overall tone is mellower and a little fuller in the bass
The dynamics is slightly better, capable of the extension from the ppp to the fff (probably the best dynamics with the Bosie 200) (the charis, instead goes from the the ppp to the ff)

-
The 205 S has slightly the “Boesendorfer Effect”: playing the Chopin’s Scherzo n.2, when there is the melody on the right and the arpeggio on the left, the left easily overtakes the right…or better: the melody doesn’t have the capability to come out
This flaw is only present in the 4th octave…
The bass are a little blur (but this is the drawback of being “full”…) and a direct comparison of the same chords on the two pianos revealed that the charis is definitely clearer starting from the second C (above they are similar). But this stuff is practically unaudible when you play (even though the tests must start from the facts… isn’t it?)
The mechanics is full of capabilities (probably), but I find it too sensible for my skills… (similar to the F212 I tried in Sacile)


Last but not least: the S version of the 205 has the long music stand (ok, I can stand it… but if it was shorter…), the lid with the straight edge (I think no-one is able to see it at the first glance, therefore it is not so important), an awful painting of the cast iron plate (extremely rough and with a dark gold color) and the plain finish of the inside of the rim (the standard version must have some burl). The proportions of the piano are not the best I’ve ever seen.
The charis, instead, has a pale, but well done, inside (The second time I saw it I really appreciated it), and it is really well shaped.

for the Concert Royal, wait a minute for the next post

I have also some interesing pictures, but I don't know how to post them...

ciao

sigaretta,

Directions for uploading photos are here.

If you prefer the more mellow and full tone of the Steingraeber, a little hammer voicing should reduce the blurriness in the bass. The Piano Technicians Guild info re voicing is here. Please note that tuning and regulation should precede voicing. In general, it's a good idea to voice hammers a little at a time and evaluate the results. *Prior experience* with voicing is a definite plus. One way to learn who's good is to ask the dealer whom he employs for this task.

Don't know about that fourth octave. If the Steingraeber would be your choice, but that octave remains an issue, you may want to start a thread concerning it in the Techs forum.


Please continue posting your impressions.

The addictedness is getting worse and worse... it's only been two days and I was already yearning for another shot... of piano-testing of course...

Well, I went to Bressanone music school to test the Sauter Delta today... and even though I have been able to play on it only for 15 minutes and it was pretty badly in need of regulation and to some extent of a tuning, but one thing was clear from the get go: this "little" 185 cm "thingy" just oozes power!

The tone was pleasant and not bright, while the bass was really powerful, almost overwhelming in the small, though carpeted and egg-boxed room. Definitely a "must try seriously" if I can get my hands on a properly prepared one, although the sheer power was a little bit intimidating.

And because I just couldn't resist, I had called a local dealer/tech which I wasn't aware to have opened a piano gallery last year. And he had an August Förster 190. And it was a very[/b] different experience compared to the trial in Vienna.

Perhaps the difference was just in the length of the playing, as the first reaction was the same I had in Vienna. Really wonderful, sweet tone but lacking power. Nevertheless, I kept playing my "standard test repertiore" (see above), and the supposedly feeble tone didn't seem disturbing to me anymore as I grew accustomed to it... on the contrary, I really fell in love with the absolutely gorgeous tone, the effortless and very precise control of ppp passages (felt even better than the memory of the Grotrian Charis) and the thought that this piano can be played *very* lively without fear of blowing out the windows.

The only doubt that came up is about the sustain, while playing the central, lyrical part of the Schubert A flat major Impromptus, where the melody did sing beautifully, but the decay seemed rather fast to me. I'd like to emphasise that I noticed this only on this particular piece and that I hadn't really payed attention to sustain or lack thereof before.

But I feel that I could live with the less powerful Förster very well, especially in my not so huge future living room, just enjoying the very sweet and mellow tone. Even when really pounding higher octaves (near the end of Scriabin's Etude in d sharp minor), where without a single exception every piano I tried just screamed, the Förster remained calm and almost relaxed, making this piece sound enjoyably different.

As for the bass, the roundedness and "pureness" of the tone is very pleasing to me, and one thing I noticed is that with hard, low accompaining ff- octaves like on Liszt's Liebestraum, Chopin ballade in g minor or Scriabin, the attack sound is not as pronounced, but rather those tones just seem to be there all of a sudden... normally it would be something that bothers me, but it was totally different from the "Bösendorfer effect" I described above.

Generally, this instrument had the right mix of borderline- mellowness, while retaining just sufficient clarity, resulting in a tone which today to me seemed overwhelmingly beautiful.

Concluding this trial session, I played almost the whole Rhapsody in Blue and after that I felt sure that I could live without a "yelling" piano. I'm not sure if I will still be sure tomorrow, but anyways...

I forgot to update the "charts"... The exact ranking of the top two isn't all that clear... it remains to be seen if some soul- searching and even more testing will clear things up...

- "Papabili" (strongest candidates of those tried out):
Grotrian Steinweg Charis (208 cm)
August Förster AF 190
Grotrian Steinweg Cabinet (190 cm)
Sauter Delta (must try a new one - action ????)
Seiler 208
Kawai RX-3 (barely escapes the discarded list because of the price...)

- Tried and discarded (in no particular order)
Yamaha C3, C5 (the latter with a little question mark)
Bechstein Academy Series
Blüthner 4 (forgive me)
Bösendorfer 185 and 200 (forgive me even more)
Shigeru Kawai SK III
Seiler 183

- Tried and on the shortlist in case of a lottery jackpot
Fazioli F-212
Steingräber 205
Steinway C
Bösendorfer 225
Fazioli F-185
Steinway B

- Still to try, located (potential) dealers
August Förster 215*
Sauter Omega*
Schulze-Pollmann
Rieger Kloss (Bohemia) Janacek and Smetana
Petrof
Estonia*
*=dealer found, but instruments currently not available

- Want to try, but can't find a dealer
Shigeru higher than SK III
Mason and Hamlin
Yamaha S

Well, vippo, I am definitely enjoying the twists and turns of your piano testing journey! I think one primary reason for the difference in your reactions to the two Förster you tried is variations in prep. I've played 3 or 4 Försters at two different stores; at the first store, the piano left me lukewarm and I liked many other brands better. But at the other store, the Förster was, in my opinion, the best piano in a store filled with many excellent pianos (including Grotrians and C. Bechsteins). Which perhaps just shows how important prep and room acoustics are, as well as just how frustrating piano shopping can be with all these different variables affecting the experience.

It also strikes home the important moral that you should play "The One" for extended durations on more than one occasion to make sure it really and truly is "The One."

Monica, I'm not so sure that they were all that differently prepared, as I didn't notice substantial differences between the two. What was in fact different was my reaction to the "shortcomings" of the AF... it seems that by playing it for a longer time I grew accustomed to the supposed flaws and instead learned to love the strong points of the instrument.

Anyways it was a very interesting experience! Only now I do really and fully see that indeed it IS important to go back and play the same piano over and over again, and maybe even more important, to try different samples of the same instrument...

I really have to thank all of you on this forum, because I probably would never have gone to such lengths "just to try different pianos"

Let's have this printed in gold and hang on the Colisseum!

For all eternity!!

Norbert

Vippo,
I've just briefly played the new Grotrian Charis 208 that came into the local Grotrian Dealer (Harl Pianos). I also thought as you did that the action was lighter than on the 192 and maybe even faster. While the bass clearly had a deeper tone than the 192, for most normal sized living rooms the 192 would be quite sufficient. A couple of other differences I noted beteen the 208 and 192 were that the plate on the Charis appeared a little lighter and the wood along the inside rim had more of a darker reddish look. Overall I liked the look of the Charis better than it bigger and shorter sibblings.

When you get to the caliber of the pianos you are playing it really comes down to which one you like the best, they're all great. For me there is no more gorgeous tone than you'll find on a Grotrian, and the sustain goes on forever.

Rich

vippo,

I asked opinions about the Petrof Pasat in another thread, so when you do go to the Petrof factory, please make sure you try this piano in particular. I am very interested in what you have to say about it.

Thanks,

Chuckles

Vippo, just a quick note to thank you for this WONDERFUL thread, by far the most enjoyable one (!!!) I've followed since joining Piano Forums.

Based on your recounting, I searched out Los Angeles' Fazioli dealer (Pierre's Fine Pianos), who kindly allowed me to try out the F212, F228 and F308. Short of a converted magnetic-action Steinway D (also tried recently), the F212 indeed has the most remarkably controllable action of any piano I've played, permitting ppp-to-FFF control and perfect clarity of filigree passage work in my favorite repertoire (late Scriabin sonatas, Ravel).

You would'nt be the first. It was a close race between the Bosendorfer 214 and the Fazioli F212. The Bosie won in my case.

I'm definitely going to try the Pasat in the same store where sigaretta tried the Steingräber and the Grotrian Charis. It seems that tuesday next week might be the day I have to go to Torino, so it will be soon.

SteinwayB, thanks for the compliments... but without the input of the other members this thread a) wouldn't be alive and b) I wouldn't even have got this far, so it's mostly the accomplishment of this marvellous community...

vippo wrote When we recommend doing that, it probably sounds like we're being fanatical. But we really do react differently on different days.

I suspect that you'll be quoted in future threads.

Steinway B,

I've been to Pierre's. Great guy with some very nice pianos. His store is where I fell in love with the F212 as well, and I would not consider myself anywhere near the level of expert of judging as many others in this forum.

Vippo, I'm not really familiar with Grotrians, and am curious as to their price point - are they along the lines of Estonia and Petrof, or more like Schimmel et al?

Vippo,
Thanks for this great thread. Your research and detailed analyses will aid many buyers in the future I'm sure.

Of course I hope you'll finally get to try an M&H at the last moment and agree that it's the best thing you ever laid fingers upon. Maybe that's a little self-serving on my part, huh?

An interesting read! However, I found that buying a piano is like buying a car. I would love to have a Mercedes or Porche but I had to be happy with a Honda and enjoy it very much. I love my piano too. I would love to have a Steinway or Fazioli but purchased a Vogel because it was "affordable." If I was a concert pianist and my livlihood depended on my instrument, then I would make it my priority to have the best. As an amateur piano player, my Vogel 160 Yes, small grand, sounds wonderful in my living room where I have a cathedral ceiling which allows the sound to resonate. My piano spoke to me when I played it, and yes, I did try the Steinways and Faziolis which were beautiful no doubt, but I was thrilled with my Vogel grand because to me, it sounds wonderful. So, Schimmels perhaps in the right environment would sound wonderful too.

@captainchuckles: Grotrians I think are a tad above Schimmels price-wise, at least here in Europe.

M&HAAdriver (it remains more complicated than c3driver, sorry... ): too much compliments, I'm just typing what I think of those pianos, and most of all it's highly subjective. I had a hard time writing "Bösendorfer - discarded", "Blüthner - discarded"... others may have a wrong impression of those pianos just because I didn't like them. Two positive, one negative is far worse than one positive review, isn't it? I sort of feel guilty for badmouthing pianos I don't like... and as we are on topic: I don't think I would like M&H, as they seem to be quite the opposite of those pianos I liked best so far...

vogel54: you're probably right... but I could be as lucky as having fallen in love with a Porsche Carrera and still being able to settle for a Boxster, as the Grotrians (a tad on the pricey side) and the Försters are definitely within reach. Or at least I'm as optimistic to hope they will still be once the dust which I have raised on my bank account buying a new apartment, has settled

Just curious... it seems people on this thread prefer the Fazioli F212 over the larger models. Why? Is it just a price consideration? Or does the F212 really play and sound better because of some design issues?

I can't speak to the full-size models, which I've never met in the flesh, but I definitely wouldn't want to switch my F212 for an F228. I've played a couple of 228s, and while they were superb pianos, I felt they were built for power rather than subtlety, and that the tone was a little harsh compared to the rich, singing voice of the 212.

Best wishes,
Matthew

I would concur with Matthew's observations on the Fazioli F212 versus F228.

The F212 struck me as the more "intimate" piano, one you'd buy and indulge in playing Ravel and Debussy just for yourself until late at night. The dynamic range is ppp-FF(+1/2), although Pierre indicated it was a matter of voicing the brand-new piano for more brightness and volume in the treble (which I'm used to with my current piano).

The F228 is more of a "salon" piano, for when you're playing for a small gathering of friends. With more power, the corresponding dynamic range of pp-FFF is more difficult to control than with the F212. Also, it's 20% more money! :p

vippo wrote No, no, and no! You're not badmouthing anything. Quite the contrary, you're stating your tonal preferences clearly. And readers can see that. So for example, if they would prefer - or even think that they might prefer - a more blurred (which could also be expressed as a "less percusive") bass, they're being pointed directly at pianos which they will probably like.

It's your honesty - sigaretta's too - which makes your posts so valuable.

Also, your willingness to travel gives others an insight into what is often required to find the one that sings to you.

I didn't want to post this earlier, but now that you've experienced a different reaction to the August Forster I'll say it. "The One" may be the one that sings to your in your dreams. If it does, you may wake up humming one of your audition pieces and realize that you're thinking of how it sounds on a specific piano.

The three F228's I have encountered displayed greater dynamic range (right down to ppp levels) and were generally superior in tone and touch to the four or five F212s I've played. That is not say that the 7 footers are not exceptional pianos in themselves, just that the 7'6" models were even more so. One particular F228 was possibly the finest piano I've ever played, concert grand Hamburg Steinways, Bösendorfers, etc, included...

-Michael B.

I have somehow managed to overlook this very interesting thread until now.

Vippo, I have been to several of the same dealers and recognise the process you are going through. May I make one suggestion? Price is a factor in your listing. Although in Europe the differential between the offer price and the real price may not be as large as in America, discounts are still a factor. This may bring some pianos (such as the Steingreaber 205 for example) more within reach. In the UK the 205 was certainly available last year for very substantially less than a similarly sized Fazioli or Hamburg B.

It is interesting that you are so keen on the Grotrians. I was unimpressed when I first encountered these (in the large, hanger like, warehouse you describe near Zurich airport). However, on second aquaintance at Jecklins I was very impressed. At the time they had a demo (ie it had been there a while) 192 at a very realistic price. I thought that piano was quite superb.

Good luck with your piano search - and with the Villa.

I hope that the Villa renovation budget does not damage the piano budget...

Kind regards

Adrian