Here some pictures:
Steingraeber 205 S











next reply will be about pics of Grotrian Charis 208...

Love the photo looking back to the woman who's looking back at the camera.

Here they are... Grotrian 208 with the mentioned pale, but beautiful inside. Gorgeous the inside rim...















next post... a direct comparison...

Beautiful pictures, sigaretta, and I'm really looking forward to try them on tuesday morning (My business trip to Pinerolo has been postponed from Friday... )

@AJB: sigaretta gave me a hint of what the Steingräber might cost, but although it's a very interesting figure, it's still way over budget. We'll se how it develops... I haven't gone as far yet as to seriously chart the waters for potential discounts, but I am confident that I can reach a reasonable discount once the bargaining starts for real.

re the restoration works of my future apartment: I have got a turn-key deal, so I won't have to worry about extra costs from the civil works... what I don't know is the exact figure I'm going to spend on the furniture. I've made a budget, but I haven't really started furniture shopping. As the piano is the most important thing, first things come first

Vippo,

I have a favor, since you are trying to find the perfect piano on a budget, would you mind doing the following:

After you check out the Pasat and the Grotrian, in addition to putting out your excellent opinions on how they play, could you as well show a price point difference, as you have found between, say

Petrof P210 Pasat
Schimmel NWS 213
Grotrian 208 Chablis
Steingraeber 205
Fazioli F212

I am choosing these for comparison as they are all in the "approaching 7' to 7'" category.

I am assuming the Pasat is the least expensive, so you could just put all of the others relative to it. It would be interesting to hear opinions justifying price point differences between these pianos. Also, laying them out side by side with price differences may redirect your focus back to the perfect piano on a budget.

Thanks,

Chuckles

Chuckles:
Grotrian 208 Chablis[/b]

That would need a mighty large corkscrew

-Michael B.

oops

captainchuckles, I am not sure if posting prices would be of any service, because the market here in europe is surely quite different from the situation in florida or in the states in general.

on top of that, I haven't got to the point where I'm asking about realistic sale prices, as all I've collected until now are the listed prices of the dealers, which are subject to more or less substantial discounts (or at least I hope so)...

For these two reasons I'm a bit reluctant to post prices, as I don't think it would serve anybody.

Of course I will continue posting my impressions, especially on the 208 Chablis, if I'm still able to type after emptying it

I could say it was Freudian, but I don't even drink the stuff. As I stated earlier, I'm not very familiar with Grotrians.

I wasn't really looking for pricing, just price differentials, even if it's at the full 'retail' - even though Europe may not exactly reflect the same differentials as U.S., I'll bet it is not far off.

Thanks again for all of your detailed impressions of the instruments you have played so far.

Chuckles

Not by chance the very piano I tried to get your attention to earlier:

Norbert

Rest assured that it will, if not directly for the readers in the States, then perhasps for the readers in Europe.

Not posting any price will for sure NOT be of any service to any one. Posting prices truthfully will sure to be of some service to some one.

So go ahead and post them.

*sigh*

i would love to be back in europe, trying out all those impeccable pianos.

shall we start taking bets on the winner of this contest?

since you love piano shopping, perhaps you don't mind torturing yourself in this way. in the meantime, your audience is suffering from suspense.

of all the pianos that do fall within your budget, i'm willing to bet that the grotrian is the winner.

vippo,

I see you're slowly coming to the same conclusion I did about the August Forster 190. For me, it was the perfect balance between sweetness/mellowness and brightness. The Bosendorfers were too mellow for me. And for me the touch was impeccable. I tend to play softly so the "lack" of volume isn't an issue.

I played most of the brands you have and eventually bought the AF190.

Glad you bumped it for me, as I have to report yesterday's adventures... but first, a few comments on the replies:

@Norbert: I acknowledged your first guess in my post, saying that you had it right... the 208 just blew me away! As soon as I had tried the 192 I knew that the 208 would be a very[/b] strong candidate... and boy is it ever!

@captainchuckles and axtremus: I'm reluctant to post prices as I don't have the slightest clue whatsoever which will be the final prices. My guess is that, as the retail prices vary greatly (from 60% to 100% of Larry's list for the same piano), the room for discounts is varying also. My feeling is that the "street price" for most pianos in central europe is around 30 - 40% off of Larry Fine's list.

well, piquè, you'll have to wait even longer for the conclusion, as I'm not buying before the end of the year. at least it's this year But it doesn't feel like torture at all, even though I notice that I'm getting a little antsy already... but I feel really blessed to have the opportunity to try so many really great pianos... I deeply enjoy these trips as a once-in-a-lifetime experience, which perhaps not many people have the opportunity of living. On top of it, I am fortunate enough to be able to combine all this with my job, so how could this get any better? I'm really thanking our Lord for this experience, because even if I wasn't buying one of these wonderful beasts down the road, it would be a gift one can only appreciate so much...

@devils4ever: really, the august förster 190 has gone from disappointment to second-strongest candidate in a blink... maybe trying the 215 will be the revelation that the grotrian 208 has been

hold on everybody, I'm preparing another post on my really wonderful journey, as I've visited Bergamini yesterday!

for preparing Vippo's next post... a couple of pictures: Steingraeber 205S & Grotrian 208

Here we go... yesterday morning I visited Bergamini, where there were three gems waiting: the Steingräber 205, the Grotrian-Steinweg Charis 208 and the Petrof Pasat 210. There was also a Grotrian 192 which is a rental instrument as well as a Petrof P-IV, but to be honest, I didn't play those two very much because I had my hands full with the other three...

First I played the Grotrian, starting with the "trial Beethoven Sonata"... it was voiced very brightly, and Mr. Bergamini said that even though he doesn't do it normally, he is considering voicing it down a bit already in the shop, as it was really bright compared to the one I tried at Jecklin (which was nothing short of perfect for my taste). The touch was precise and light, the tone had the "dryness" and "pluckyness" (credits to wzkit for the term) I remembered. Except for the bright voicing it was exactly as I remembered it.

Then I went on to the Steingräber and the first impact was a little bit sobering. Maybe I had put it on a pedestal, trying it side-by-side with a Seiler 208 (not too shabby if taken for itself, but clearly no match for the Steingräber), but even compared to a very bright Grotrian, it didn't impress me all that much. This is not to say I didn't like it, but I definitely was overwhelmed in Vienna, which I clearly wasn't this time. It was voiced a little brighter than the one I tried in Vienna, and maybe in the acoustically very lively showroom (see sigaretta's photos) it was too booming.

The Steingräber has the darker tone compared to the Grotrian, and it sounds less "dry". It was borderline- mellow, as I had to really concentrate to bring out the single notes on faster passages like on Schubert's Impromptus Op. 90 No. 2 in E-flat major, but the tone was really gorgeous nonetheless. As said, I started to doubt if it wasn't too much piano for a living room, but then again the showroom is very lively. And then, as I will explain later, the difference after all is maybe only in the fuller, darker tone which may make it seem louder. Anyways, what I felt was that the action seemed to me ever so slightly less preicse than the Grotrian's. If I had to rank them, however, if the Grotrian had 100 points, the Steingräber would have 99,5. Tonally, the Steingräber would be the perfect complement to the Grotrian...

The Petrof was the one with the least precise and light action of the three. ppp isn't as effortlessly controllable and there's the chance that some notes are lost along the way. Tonally, it is somwhere near the middle between the Grotrian and the Steingräber, so it didn't catch my attention like the other two. It isn't as dark and rich as the Steingräber and at the same time not as dry and slender as the Grotrian. It reminded me of the Seiler, but with a way more precise action. It would be the rationale between the two pricier and tonally "extreme" pianos.

Concerning the finish however, the Petrof was maybe the most beautiful with the Grotrian a close second. The Steingräber, being a sort of "educational" model, as I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong), wasn't charming at all. FWIW, the Petrof is the only one with tuned duplex length, as the Grotrian and the Steingräber have "only" a half-round brass profile to cap off the duplex part. The Steingräber is loop-strung, while the Grotrian and the Petrof are single- strung. But what really matters is the sound and the feel, so more of that and less of the things I don't understand enough to offer valuable insight.

On all three, sustain is a non- issue, and reminding myself to pay attention to this, I compared the three with the memory of playing the central part of the Schubert A flat major Impromptus on the August Förster 190. I didn't notice any substantial difference, so there's no escaping going back to the AF 190 to check this out... :rolleyes:

The most puzzling experience however was the following: whenever I was sitting at one piano, I was thinking "well, this and that, I just couldn't play it like this on one of the other two". Then I went to the next and after five minutes of "settling", I played it exactly like on the first piano. For example, playing Clair de Lune on the Grotrian extra- super- softly, I thought that I couldn't do it on the "booming" Steingräber. Then, in the middle of the piece I stand up and go over to the Steingräber, play the first ten measures and it comes out exactly like on the Grotrian. "But on the Petrof it sure doesn't work" and I sit down over at the Pasat and it works almost just as fine (a little less so due to the less precise action, but you get the idea).

Maybe it really just comes down to the tonal preferences, because above a certain level the actions are such that you can adjust to almost everything. I'm thinking of my experience when I first played the Faziolis... I thought "boy, this just has to be the most outstandingly precise action on this planet", feeling that after this I couldn't play soft passages like that on any other piano... and then I went straight to the Grotrian 192, and much to my surprise, I was able to actually play Clair de Lune very nicely

Don't misunderstand me, I would not trade thany of those three for, let's say, a Boston, even if I liked the tone better, but above a certain "tier" (mmmmhm, how I hate this word... :rolleyes: ) I feel like one really can live with anything as far as actions go...

All three are really great pianos, the Petrof delivering an oustanding "bang for the buck" at around 30 k€, while the Grotrian Charis is in the high thirties, and the Steingräber near 50 k€. If I could afford it, I would have packed in at least the Steingräber and the Grotrian, but I'd also be happy with all three

Need to update the charts, with the only change being a new entry in the candiate's list:

- "Papabili" (strongest candidates of those tried out):
Grotrian Steinweg Charis (208 cm)
August Förster AF 190
Grotrian Steinweg Cabinet (190 cm)
Petrof Pasat (210 cm)
Sauter Delta (must try a new one - action ????)
Seiler 208
Kawai RX-3 (barely escapes the discarded list because of the price...)

Vippo!! (NOTE:when I wrote Vippo hadn’ sent his post)
I cannot wait, I'm eager to know your opinion about this direct comparison...
In the meantime I explain my point of view:

In the last written post (the others were full of pictures) I described the full bass, the durable voice and the little non uniformity of the volume around the C-D-E-F one octave above the central C (in this zone I think is a little soft) of the Steingraeber 205S I tried in Bergamini, Torino.

Now I describe a little the Grotrian 208: I think it is one of the more uniform piano I’ve ever tried both in volume in every part of the keyboard and in the tone. There are no holes in the whole extension. The tone is just a little bright, but IMHO, to the right extent. The sustain capabilities are not equal to the Steingraeber’s ones, but it arrives to great levels, and let’s say that the brighter tone doesn’t help, since the more sound attack, less sustain perception…
The bass… are incredibly clear and woody… the tone is really typical, but even beautifully linked seamlessly with the rest.
The volume in very well balanced and, overall, not so loud. And this, even though I understand that could be a flaw for the professional pianist, it ‘s not in my humble home… ‘cause when I say that the volume is not so high, I’m already arrived over the capabilities of my neighbour’s ears.
The mechanics is soft, but not too much. I liked it a lot, even if I recognize that, probably, the Steingrareber’s one is superior, that means that it’s a bit more precise.
Additionally I have to say that these two pianos (208 & 205) weren’t tuned at all before my tries. They were just like out of the box, without even a little tuning


And again (since Vippo didn’t write so far…)
Yesterday I tried the last four Steinway (Hamburg, of course) in my long research: I went to Classica Musica in Milano where there were 4 S&S D and 4 S&S B. I tried also one of the instrument of Pollini… (but this is another story)
Well I don’ want to say that they are bad pianos (the B’s)… but
- I find that the tone is greatly changing in the different parts of the keyboard
- The tone is definitely mellow in the octave above the central one and extremely ringing “like bells” above. And I can ensure you that you can correct this, but to some extent, since it’s not only a problem of volume, but also of tone (you can really feel and hear the felt of the hammer, in this part of the keyboard!!!!)
- The tuning capabilities of the technician greatly affects the yield of every single note: if the technician is able to tease the duplex scale with the correct amount of disharmonic beating of the three strings, the note is able to blow you away.. otherwise the volume and the sustain is nothing special. The technician (he is the piano tuner of Maurizio Pollini and he follows him around the world) says: it’s like a Ferrari: you can tune it and obtain what you want. And I say: OK, but I’ don’t have a full team (like Ferrari or Pollini) following the changing of temperature, humidity and mood of the wood… In fact the result was that even in this big dealer if the piano is not perfectly tuned (that means JUST tuned: yesterday or, at maximum, last week) some notes fire and the disuniformity rules on the keyboard.

The pro’s of the Steinway B are (IMHO):
- The bass are incredibly beautiful, because of the tone that is definitely typical and this is the feature that really remains in your heart.
- the tendency to cover your little errors with an always beautiful sound
- the exterior aspect and the value of the object in the next fifty years

So I’m really in trouble, because probably I’m deciding, probably I’ll go for a Grotrian. But I’m quite impressed by myself, because I’m really thinking it without the money concern…( I try to keep my mind unaware of what it’s going to happen to my wallet…). And I’m not so much self confident to say: OK you tried a lot (Fazioli, Steinway, Grotrian, Steingraeber, Yamaha, Boesendorfer) and you decided for Grotrian. I’m scared, because I’m going to adopt a 350 kg child in my house that will grow up with me for the next forty years…

ok… Vippo posted. So damned orthographic errors: REPLY and I’ll read Vippo’s opinion…

vippo, room acoustics are often overlooked when auditioning.

sigaretta, I'm really enjoying reading your impressions alongside vippo's.

The shorter sustain of the Grotrian may result from its being a slightly higher tension scale design. I think that I saw a post a year or so ago to the effect that Grotrians have a medium-high scale. Don't know about the Steingraeber. Someone with more knowledge may have better info.

Vippo:

Sigaretta:

An incredible journey!

With an incredibly similiar result when we did my own for our business - on a much smaller scale mind you....

Norbert

Vippo,

All of these posts about the Grotrian are really making me want to find one. Thanks for the incredible detail of your impressions. Regarding tone, with the Petrof not being at either extreme, do you think it would be more adept at playing multiple styles of music (jazz, classical, pop) than the other two?

Does anyone know how to go about locating a Grotrian dealer? Their website doesn't have the dealer locater feature, as best I can tell.

This has been a great thread. Looking forward to more of it.

Chuckles

You could try the U.S. distributor,

Lyon & Healy
168 N. Ogden Ave.
Chicago, IL 60607
(312) 786-1881

Chuckles,
I think the closest Grotrian dealer to you is Harl Pianos in Alexandria Va. Beethoven Pianos in NYC carries them as well. I do know that Harl Pianos has the 192, 208, and 225 Grotrians on the floor. The 208 just arrived and it is a gem.

Rich

I don't know if the Petrof is the most adept, but it certainly is more neutral... anyways it all comes down to what you prefer. And after all, if you like the tone, you can resort to a good tech to bring it nearer to your preferences.

Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue sounds just as good as Schubert Impromptus, Take Five just as Liebestraum on each of the three pianos... to me, that is. There's no other way than to try them and judging them sitting in front. As if that was easy :rolleyes:

This thread is quite fascinating, and I'm thoroughly enjoying the way it is headed, for both vippo and sigaretta! The choice is clear to me (though I admit I am biased).

I have a couple comments:

While the Grotrian's sustain may be shorter in relation to a specific piano vippo played, I wouldn't say the Grotrian's sustain is 'short'! (I doubt that is what FogVilleLad is saying, but just thought I'd clarify that point). I often feel I need to modify my pedalling in order to compensate for the superb sustain.

Check out this interesting post.

Also FWIW, I've heard that Grotrian uses what is called a "mixture scale" - a short, non-tuned duplex; each string in the 'duplex' is a different length - I presume this randomizes the harmonics. I am not sure if the Charis has this feature, but it would seem to be consistent with other models I've seen. And with Grotrian, consistency seems to be very important.

Eagerly looking forward to your next posts...

Back from holidays - now I will have time for testing pianos again - comments to follow on the other thread when I have got around to something.

Just a word on the Steingräber 205S - this is the "Studio" model, as opposed to the 205N. The optics of the plate and the inner rim (as well as the non chamfered lid) make it cheaper (plate isn't polished that carefully and then covered with a "Hammerschlaglack"). If you have a chance to see a 205N, you will see what fine workmanship is ...

Need to find a Charis somewhere near Munich ...

Markus

Chuckles, there is a dealer in Atlanta. Duluth to be specific. PianoWorks, it's called. They had a Cabinet and Concert but not a Charis the last time I was there. After reading these posts, I was considering asking if they were planning to get one anytime soon.

They are a fine dealership, very nice, big store, great people. They also carry Bosendorfer, Estonia, Schimmel as well as Grotrian. Worth the trip.

They also had an Imperial and a 280 (Bosey's) in their super secret downstairs room. (Just kidding. It's not secret, it just feels secret - I mean how many pianos can you have on the floor if you have a 280 AND an Imperial out there too?)

Are those prices "list/advertised" or "street"?

For vippo, sigaretta, et al,

Now that you've accumulated more first-hand experience with many different pianos, I'd invite you to go take a shot at some of these old exercises we did in the past:

Indentify the Pianos - Round I
Indentify the Pianos - Round 1.5
Indentify the Pianos - Round II
Indentify the Pianos - Round III

Have fun!

Mr. Bergamini told me the prices when I asked, so I imagine there could be still some room for discounts, but I'm not sure.

I've tried to listen through the pieces in the Grotrian- finding Round I some time ago, but I've got to burn them onto a CD, because on the laptop you don't hear anything... but glad you've posted the links here, so I won't have to search for the others...

Hi Markus, welcome back! I was already missing your input... as you see, sigaretta and I have been really busy in the meantime