Hey Vippo, the only thing that would make this thread more irresistible would be PICTURES! Take your camera. (Don't have one? Somebody ship a camera to this guy!) I'm sure when they hear you sit down and rip through Rhapsody in Blue and others, they would respect you as a serious player and buyer and most wouldn't mind snapping a few pics - don't you think? Wouldn't hurt to ask.

For what you're doing for Grotrian right now, I think they should send you a bouquet of flowers, or else a nice cover for your future Charis, or maybe an artist's bench. Or how about a factory tour complete with a factory discount at the end. Maybe they could engrave your name in your custom Charis right off the assembly line - oops, the hand built finishing room (on the bottom of course - wouldn't want to hurt resale value).

Of course Yamaha and Bosendorfer are sticking little pins in their Vippo dolls right now! Stop that little Italian, they say! Watch out, they could go for the fingers!

OK, to recap. PICTURES. Americans want to see a European dealership anyway. Put your camera in your pocket. How else can you keep all these jewels straight?

Well, and recordings, too, but we might be asking too much in that case.

TLuvva:
Of course Yamaha and Bosendorfer are sticking little pins in their Vippo dolls right now! Stop that little Italian, they say! Watch out, they could go for the fingers!

Nah. I am quietly confident that vippo will get over all this Grotrian/Steingräber/whatever business, and will very soon encounter an incomparable Bösendorfer somewhere on his travels, and will suddenly realise that it really is the finest piano money can buy. Those Viennese work in a very stealthy fashion, y'know

-Michael B.

He did say that the 225 was the only Bosey that impressed. At least, we know he's not completely nuts. How's that 214CS playin'? For the time being that's the piano that remains my goal.

I have been its official keeper for over a year now... and still feel like a little kid at Christmas every morning, as I come down the stairs and see it sitting there waiting to be played

-Michael B.

vippo, first impressions are hard to overcome, like your Schimmel piano bar experience. It sounds like you were pleasantly surprised by the 169, but I hope that you will find a 213 or 213 NWS to play before you complete your research, just to compare 7' apples to 7' apples.

If the Pasat is still on your list, then the 213 should at least be on your list of pianos to try out, even if you've sworn to never buy a Schimmel. I went back and forth playing both the Pasat and the 213 to compare them. I loved both pianos but the 213 had something special that spoke to me. I bought it that day - even though I really wanted to try an Estonia 190 before making my decision. It just wasn't possible to schedule a trip to California soon enough to still have the option to buy the 213.

I never got to play a Grotrian, but the 6'10" model is beyond my price limit, anyway. Based on everything I've read (and recordings I've heard), I'm sure I would end up as a Grotrian fan.

I will definitely tra to give Schimmel a chance, don't worry, Mark. There's still plenty of time left, even if it looks all but a head- to- head race between Grotrian- Steinweg and August Förster. After all, it's been only two months of what is projected to last at least twelve. And I'm really curious about a good Schimmel and I promise to give it a fair trial (just kidding...) Problem is, I didn't even notice I hadn't even put it on the "to try" list... consider it added since a month or so. But you're right, I have to think more actively about the Schimmel, I'm definitely wronging them...

TLuvva: My problem is that I forget my digital camera every time I go to try a piano... I am soooo excited every time that I don't even think of taking pics. But also here I vow to improve! And Monica, you'll be surprised that I even considered recording some "trying sessions", but have to make up my mind... Should the situation remain as it is now, there's little to no chance that I can get an August Förster and a Grotrian Steinweg side by side... so the only "objective" means of comparing would be a recording with a Zoom or something like that... but I will probably start a thread re: tips for optimising this comparison method once this threats to become serious. Otherwise, you'll just have to wait a little, and then I'll flood you with recordings of my jewel, whichever it will be... well, as long as my repertoire of pieces that I can get to performance quality will last

The "problem" with Bösendorfers is that I like a crisper tone a little better, especially for playing faster passages. Probably because my technique isn't really up to snuff, I expect the piano to bail me out .

And I'm glad that I am in very little danger to be infected by Bösendorferitis, as there's absolutely no way they could be near my budget. I'm also glad that I liked the Grotrian Charis better than the Steingräber, because I can't afford the latter. I'm just pretending I could, so I don't have to walk away by principle. As I do with Faziolis... I can't think that hell's going to freeze over before I'll be owning one of them, but that doesn't keep me from playing them... you just have to betray your rational thinking...

The head race between August Foerster and Grotrian-Steinweg is one that occurred in my memory twice before.....

Both fantastic pianos, it may very well depend on the particular specimen and model you end up trying.

No hint from me this time how the last 'race' went....

Norbert

I wish I could come along and help you out. I'm a photographer and have recording gear and laptops and all the goodies. We need to back up and make a documentary film of this whole thing. I suppose we could just cover the next 10 months (this thread can't go on for a year - can it?)

Guess I'll have to slip over to Italy. How about next month!?! Who's with? We could use a videographer. I'm still photographer but I suppose I could do it.

No, you're right, it can't go on for another 10 months... sooner or later, we'll have to start a new one

I promise I will post pics, as I like photographing, too... but, as I said, I'm just too excited to think about my poor cameras...

Norbert, you may be pretty much spot on again with that assessment. Although, I have to say that the two Charis I tried so far as well as the two AF 190 have been very similar to their respective siblings. We'll see...

Don't forget to try a new Sauter Delta or Omega if you have the chance!

i seem to remember at least one forum member finding a dealer in florida who carries grotrian. but perhaps they were used.

if you email grotrian.de directly, they will tell you where your nearest dealer is. the previously named u.s. distributor is no longer handling grotrian, so far as i know.

vippo, i spent a week at the grotrian factory and then went directly to the steingraeber factory and i agree, those two are hard to choose between. what i have found is that grotrian is perhaps more consistently good. the steingraebers seem to vary more from one piano to another. and they are quite a bit more expensive!

we must have very similar taste. my top favorites and yours are about the same. i did get a chance to play the sauter omega. a fantastic instrument. but the grotrian completely stole my heart and i was a goner.

i haven't yet played the charis. reading this makes me think if i ever did play one, i might end up trading in my cabinet grand for a new charis. what do you think?

at the time i bought my piano, the charis had not yet been developed, and i liked the balance in the 190 the best of all the grotrian models.

Just a short update:

After playing a Seiler Maestro 183 for a very short time last week, I have found out that our local music school has an almost new and not so heavily used Seiler 208, which I can try whenever I want. I went there today and found my impressions from Vienna confirmed. A nice, warm tone (seemed to be voiced more mellow than the one in Vienna) with a almost too strong, but nonetheless very beautiful bass, but the main drawback is the action, which is just too heavy and unprecise to allow me a controlled pp. Especially on faster passages, my technique won't allow me to get the precision and "whispered-ness" I seek.

I know that in theory a heavier piano should help you refining your technique, but I am afraid that ultimately I will get frustrated over this issue and therefore have to scratch the Seiler 208 from the list, although reluctantly so... It is indeed a very nice instrument at a more than interesting price, but ultimately the action is just not comparable to the others.

This weekend I will go to my love (city-wise) Graz in Austria, where I spent the loooong years of my studies. There are two highly respectable piano dealerships, where I will spend a good portion of Friday afternoon and if necessary (i predict it will[/b] be necessary, even if I will have blisters from all the playing...). There, among others, I will be able to try Fazioli F183 and F228 (again... :rolleyes: ), Schimmel 169 T and 213 T (thanks to Mark's recording already less biased against them...), Yamaha C3S and C5 in one store as well as a Kawai RX-5 (a first), August Förster 190 (my second love... or third, if I take into account my girlfriend ), Bösendorfer 214 (sooner or later I've got to like 'em...) and a rebuilt Bösendorfer from 1913.

And next week, during a musical contest for youth, there will be a Yamaha S4 in Sterzing so I will finally get to try one.

I promise to take pictures and of course on Monday at the latest I will post my impressions.

@Wzkit: How could I? no, in earnest, although I am afraid it will be just too powerful for my taste, the badly compromised Alpha (edit: OOOOOPS, I meant Delta!!) was enough to have me smell blood.

@piqué: I bet you will[/b] want to trade up to the Charis, once you get your hands on it...

Vippo,

Keep in mind that some pianos grow on you and others wear off quickly. It is not unusual that sensations that give you a kick immediately wears off quicker. Play each instrument as much as you can.

I also think it is a good idea to play old pianos to see how different brands age. You will want to live with your choice of piano for the rest of your life.

Although I'm aware that to an extent it could be telling, but finding old pianos of certain brands is not so easy, because I've encountered only Bösendorfers, Steinways, Yamahas and some Bechsteins, but none of the "others".

By the way, vippo, there is yet another German manufacturer you (and I) appear to have left out from the list. The name is Thürmer (they have a website: www.thuermer-saal.de) and they appear to have had a variable history, but now have been building pianos themselves for a while again (in Bochum). Their instruments are not cheap (190 for over 40 000 € and 230 for around 60 000 €) - and I have no idea where they can be played apart fom in Bochum. Piano Hall in Munich sells them, but doesn't have any ready there (forgot to ask him what they are like); they also only make about 25 to 30 grands a year.

Off topic - I should be near Sterzing (in Ridnaun) the weekend of 24/25 March), not for playing pianos, but for a Biathlon course (since we don't have any snow near us ...).

Markus

Pictures. Take your camera. Think of it as cataloging. Take a picture (or two), then sit down. You make written notes surely remind you when you get home, right? Even take a picture of the dealership as you walk in. I'm interested in it all.

I can only repeat this promise, TLuvva... Or should I promise to keep the promise?

Vippo,
When I first encountered my Delta at the factory in Spaichingen, it just seemed way too powerful. Especially the bass! More like a 7 footer in a 6 foot body. Given that size of the room it would end up in (3m by 3m) I was afraid it would be way too loud. I conveyed my concerns to Ulrich Sauter, who subsequently got his master technician to make some adjustments. When it arrived at my place, it seemed like a totally different instrument - sparkling, clear and delicate. In fact, the most delicate and sensitive piano I have ever played. Having gone through a couple of tunings, I realised how versatile this instrument really is, being able to change its character. Bottom line - a good piano presents many many options in terms of tonal character. And the Delta just happens to be one such instrument!

I am definitely looking forward to get my hands upon a new and properly prepped instrument, and if it takes me to go to Spaichingen, so be it. Your raving reviews of your own Delta combined with ejsauter's had me salivating from the beginning.

Hey Vip, you can call me T Luv.

Hi all!

Well, the tip didn't go exactly as planned... Friday afternoon I didn't get to try the pianos, because I spent almost three hours at the office of my former professor who was my diploma thesis tutor, chatting of everything and a little more. And in the evening I met some of my old friends, which mostly I hadn't seen in quite a while, resulting in a loooooooong night...

So Saturday morning I had such a bad hangover that I couldn't get up before 10 o'clock (getting up earlier wouldn't have made much sense anyways...) and barely made it in time to visit Klaviere Streif to try the Schimmel before they closed. The visit to Fiedler Klaviere has to be postponed, but since two of my former flatmates will marry on 21st of April, I'll go back to Graz again in only five weeks time... could be worse

Well, the Faziolis once again had me salivating at their wonderful action, long sustain and their bass... useless to repeat what I have written time and again.

Then I tried the Schimmel and to say that I was pleasantly surprised would be quite an understatement... what a wonderful instrument! Not even a trace of the annoying and ear-smashing brightness I remembered, a wonderful, round and full bass which hasn't the "pureness" of the Faziolis, but nonetheless is very charming. The treble had very good sustain and a tone bordering on mellow. I asked Mr. Streif if the instrument had been voiced particularly mellow, but he said that Schimmel has changed direction in building pianos and are in fact not as bright anymore as they used to be.

To go with a pleasing tone and a gorgeous finish, the action was perfectly balanced and precise, even if it isn't as light as the Grotrian- Steinweg's and the August Förster's. But that isn't a real drawback, because no precision is lost and anyways it is still lightyears away from being tiring. I would say that the Seilers were heavier, although I wouldn't bet on my judgement given my overall condition yesterday morning...

And I have to apologise, because again I didn't take pictures... I forgot the camera in the hotel room... :rolleyes: but time was very short, so I really had to hurry... I had only about an hour for rushing to the shop and playing the Schimmel and the Faziolis.

Nevertheless, I will get back there shortly and, starting with the S4 I will try this week, I will post pics of each and every piano I try.

So a real update of the papabili list is long overdue:

1. Grotrian Steinweg Charis (208 cm)
2. August Förster AF 190
2. Schimmel K213-T (can't say if I like it better or worse than AF)
4. Grotrian Steinweg Cabinet (190 cm)
5. Petrof Pasat (210 cm)
6. Sauter Delta (must try a new one - action????)

Maybe you should play the pianos BEFORE the wedding, to avoid a repeat of this week's outcome.

Hello Vippo and all the participants who have posted in this thread.
I’ve particularly enjoyed Vippo’s journey, especially since it parallels my quest to a large extent. So I’d like to contribute a few snippets which could bring a few unexpected turns.

First, allow me to give you a bit of background. I've been searching for my “perfect” piano for the last three months, looking in my home city of Montreal, but going to Toronto, once, and to New York twice. I tried every great name in pianos, many in each brand, always in sizes ranging between 6 feet and 7’6’’: Bosendorfer, August Forster, Bluthner, Grotrian, Steinway, Fazioli, Mason & Hamlin, Sauter... In all, between 60 and 80 instruments.
The one I preferred in all these is the August Forster Model 215, mostly for its incredibly dark and rich bass section. But the treble part of the Forster was too brilliant, and somewhat difficult to control, though possessing an outstanding sustain with great "singing" virtues. In spite of its shortcomings, I would say that it is the piano I've played that displays the most unique personality I can relate to.

My preference in these high-priced pianos finally went to the 7'6'' Grotrian. It did not have the richness of the Forster bass, but it was very balanced all across the keyboard, with a very pleasant touch. But whilst the Forster was a choice of the heart, the Grotrian was a choice of reason. It did not lift my passion like the Forster, but it did answer a rational list of necessary criteria.

Then, the idea came to me to try out some lower-priced instruments. "Maybe I'll find something interesting," I thought to myself.

I did. First I went back to Faust Harrison, in New York, and Allegro Pianos, in Stamford Connecticutt, where I tried many 6’3’’ Estonias which I had previously overlooked. A remarkable piano, considering its price level (27 000 $US). The touch is supple, though on the heavy side, and the sustain is outstanding. It stands equal in my mind to practically anything Steinway or Mason & Hamlin could put beside it in the same format. I was extremely tempted by a Rosewood model that considerably tickled my esthetic fancy. But like the Grotrian, it was more a choice of reason than passion. And I would say that the Estonia favors power over delicacy, which is not my preference. (Mind you, Ori Bukai, the owner of Allegro Pianos is a master technician who can considerably tweak a piano and give you a mellowness you would not believe the Estonias capable of.)

But I continued my quest, going into areas I had previously overlooked. I came to the conclusion that no piano is “perfect”. My final choice will most likely be a happy compromise between passion and reason. And if the Estonia can make such a good piano for such an incredible price, maybe are there other untold stories out there that could bring up pianos capable of satisfying my quest where a new variable was now showing up: a relatively low price.

First, I tried a 6'3'' Pramberger (made by Samick, priced at 28 000 $Ca, about 24 000 $US). I was greatly impressed. I spoke about it with technician Gilles Losier, a living legend in the Canadian piano scene; a man of 70 who has studied with Franz Morh, Vladimir Horowitz' famed technician, who has worked in Steinway's voicing room, and who has serviced piano masters like Ashkenazy, Zimmerman, Oscar Peterson and many others. Of the Pramberger, Losier told me: "You would put this Pramberger beside many Steinways B’s, and it would blow them out of the water." Losier has no doubt that he can make a Pramberger sound as good as any Hamburg Steinway.

But the Hamburg Steinway, with its powerful projection and brilliant treble, is not my preferred taste in pianos. I would rather go for a more delicate and refined sound of the kind we could find in European pianos 30 or 40 years ago, before builders from the old continent were traumatized by the Yamahas of this world and started boosting their pianos toward powerful basses and brilliant trebles that often sound shrill.
Unexpectedly, I finally found what suits me in a 6'10'' Albert Weber (made by Young Chang, who in fact holds the property to the Pramberger designs), selling for 22,000 $CA (19,000 $US). I must say it had been very well regulated and voiced by Roland Bessette, a technician of very good reputation, who also sells the instrument. He voiced the AW in order to make its delicate and subdued character shine. Other pianos have more outstanding qualities in certain areas; for example, the Forster's incredible bass, the Bluthner's splendid definition, the Mason & Hamlin's power, some Steinways’ mellowness. But these pianos, except maybe the Grotrian, have what I perceive as shortcomings that don't please me. For example, the Bluthner's clarity comes at the price of a tone I find "bony", or the Forter's touch makes you hit a hard floor in the tenor and alto sections.

The Albert Weber had none of the outstanding qualities of these other brands, but it had one overwhelming virtue: it was well balanced and quite strong in all areas, a bit like the Grotrian, but at a fraction of the price: a rich and mellow bass, a brilliant, yet subdued treble, with very good singing properties, an incredibly nimble touch and a very distinghished finish that does not try to show off like the Schimmel or the Bosendorfer, for example.

To say the truth, I could not believe that a Korean piano, a Young Chang of all brands (pouah!), could be so accomplished – and at such an incredibly low price! But when you look at what goes into it, you end up concluding that, yes, maybe it’s possible after all: AAA Sitka spruce soundboard, maple rim, Roslau strings, Renner action with premium hammers. The only explanation is that they must have a combination of automation and low assembly wages that are practically unbeatable except by the Chinese or the Estonians.

I still want to try the larger 7'6'' AW, and if it exhibits the same qualities as the 6'10'' model, chances are I will buy it. I must admit I still have the 7'2'' Forster in the back of my mind, so it will maybe end up with a toss of the coin. But maybe not: after all, the Forster is 56 000 CA$. For 22 000 or 28 000 CA$, I would still end up with one hell of a good piano.

I'll tell you in a follow-up post on which side the coin falls.

Hi Laurentyan, sorry if I replied only now, but I've been somewhat busy during the last days.

I'd try some low-cost pianos if I could find them... I'm not really keen on spending 30.000+ € if I can have the same for less. Problem is, I haven't seen any chinese or korean pianos on my journey, except Wendl & Lung.

And, while the one I tried wasn't a bad piano, it just didn't compare to the AF 190 right next to the Wendl & Lung in terms of touch and tone. However, I'm still looking for some "lesser" makers to try their products, the best chance being for Schulze & Pollmann.

Update on my reserach activities: disappointingly I couldn't arrange to try the S4 last week as the schedule of the competition was very busy and so was mine. That was a bit weird, as I could arrange to get a whole morning in Torino, but didn't make it to spend half an hour in my hometown.

However, I got to retry the Seiler 208 in our music school and it reassured me of the impressions I posted. While I consider it a very nice piano, I simply can't become friends with it's touch. I'm getting a little itchy because of the lack of new pianos, maybe tomorrow evening I go to Brixen to play the AF 190 again.

Hello Vippo.
Thanks for you reply.

A few introductory comments. I believe we have both been searching for the “perfect” piano, which, of course, must translate into: “perfect for me”. My quest has brought me to the following conclusion: even the “perfect piano for me” does not exist. There’s always something that doesn’t add up, even in the pianos I like best: the bass is just not so, the upper register is too thin, the center is too flat, so on and so forth. So, I think that my final choice will be a compromise.

Up to now, the piano I definitely preferred above every other is the August Forster. But even the AF has some drawbacks: it is hard to control, there is a certain “floor” to the action, the sustain could be a bit better. So, even buying the AF will mean a certain compromise.

That observation has brought me to test a number of lower priced instruments, especially an Albert Weber (6’9’’) that caught my interest, in an attempt to see how far I am ready to compromise.

Here are my latest observations after playing again the AW (6'9'') and the August Forster (6'4'') this morning, in two different dealers' showrooms.

The AW does not aggress me anywhere: the tone is just fine, the bass sings, the sustain is quite good, the action is responsive, though a bit slack. It has a good dynamic range from ppp to fff, but cannot go readily way out to pppp or ffff. It is solidly built and, in its price range, I perceive that it stands well above anything Yamaha or Kawai could put beside it. I would say that I prefer it to the Yamaha's "S" line and Kawai's Shigerus.

The Forster is definitely a notch above. As soon as you touch it, you feel and hear it. Going from the AW to the Forster is like going from a good Honda Acura to a high end Mercedes. After having tried the best brands out there, it is my conviction that AF stands its ground against any Steinway, Fazioli, Bluthner, Grotrian or whatever. And it so happens that I prefer the Forster to any of these brands -- and it's cheaper. The bass is incredibly rich, round and dark. The action is a bit heavy, but tight and responsive. It sustains very well, though not more than the AW. It is hyper-sensitive in its response and you have to be very attentive when you want to play pppp or ppp. It's like a nervous horse and can jump on you if you're not careful. The top half of the keyboard is definitely too brilliant, and some notes grind my ears, but that's nothing that a good voicing job couldn't correct.

So, all in all, it's obvious that the Forster stands above the AW. Now, since I would be buying either the AF 215 model or the AW 7'6'' model, the difference in price is two to one; concretely that means that, including my trade-in, the Forster would cost me 43,000 $CA, the Albert Weber, 23,000 $CA. Now this is the question I must answer for myself: is the difference between the two pianos worth 20,000$ to me? If money were no object, it's obvious that I would jump on the Forster. But money, in my case, is... an object.
Though, mind you, I can very well afford the AF. But then, I can also do something else with those 20,000 $ of difference.

So, in the end, in the coming days or weeks I will have to find an answer to my question: to what extent am I ready to compromise. I suspect it is a question you will also have to confront at some point. Will I be content with a very good and honest product that I feel comfortable with on practically every count? Or will I go with a high performance instrument that has some drawbacks, that I will have to take time to control, but that stirs passion in me somewhere – and that costs 20,000 $ more? Will I go for a happy marriage of reason, warm and affectionate, or for a passionate love affair, where I will drink champagne day after day and burn dollar bills to light my candles?

Oooh, how I can feel with you... even though I haven't raised this quesiton in public yet, as I'm still a few months away from having to make a decision, exactly the same thoughts keep coming back and won't go away...

Especially since I have tried the Petrof Pasat, which I didn't like quite as much as the Grotrian- Steinweg or the August Förster, I keep questioning myself if the so called "tier one" pianos *to me* are worth 10 - 15.000 € more... fortunately I don't have to worry about this question yet...

it's getting late, I'm forgetting half of the things:

It is funny that you percieved the action of the August Förster as light, while the two different 190 I have tried are among the pianos with the lightest touch I encountered...

Hello Vippo,

You misread my message concerning the lightness of the touch on the August Forster. There are some AFs I've tried that have a touch on the lighter side, but in general I would say that it is in a very comfortable medium area, neither too light, nor too heavy, though a bit more on the heavy side rather than the light side.

What I do note is the astonishing sensitivity of the touch. This stands out especially when you cross your left hand over your right to sound notes in the higher register. You barely have to touch the notes and they sound right then and there, clear and tingling. When you're playing a regular melody with the right hand, I find that this imposes a level of delicacy to which I'm not used to with my present piano.

As you recognize, budget considerations will slowly creep into your equations. Only one solution to that: let time and your subconscious work through the decision, as FogVilleLad suggested to me earlier.

Laurentyan

well, it definitely *was* getting late... I didn't misread your post, i mistyped my thoughts... of course I meant to type "It is funny that you percieved the action of the August Förster as heavy"... :rolleyes:

I experienced exactly the same thing when playing through the Schubert Impromptus Op. 90 No. 1 and Op. 142 No. 1... I even made this note in my "piano searching diary": "had difficulty to get the accompaining 16ths in the right hand to sound even. Absolutely to try again after practising this section". I percieved it as a lack of practising and technique, as I always have had trouble to get this accompainment to sound like it should.

I didn't think that it was the piano being almost oversensitive... so, what in some pieces is really great, e.g. where you have to bring out single tones in chords, exposes the shortcomings of one's playing technique in such occasions... must try it again as soon as I can...